Total Noob Scope Question

[SpecialK]

I'd recommend the mil-dot scope for all around utility, if you don't mind learning and practicing mil-dot math.

That said, the absolute easiest possible way to get everything you're asking for is something along the lines of the kalinka sight posted earlier. I have one on my PSL, assuming it has a reticle designed for your chosen caliber, you're good to go. I don't necessarily recommend them, as I've heard a lot of horror stories about the quality. I assume I just got lucky, but mine has really good glass.

For range estimation you use the crush sight on the left. It's the thing that looks like half a bell-curve. You'll notice the number "1,7" near it. That means it's calibrated to estimate range for a 1.7m tall target. Put the base of the target on the line at the base, and move the sight until the curved line is touching the top of the 1.7m target. The number indicates range. The turrets on that particular optic are calibrated for range from 100-1000m, and beyond that you set it to 1000 and use the next lower chevron for 1100m, then the next lower for 1200m, etc.

There's absolutely no thought involved. The obvious limitations are:
- it expects you are targeting something roughly human sized
- the scope is built to be correct for one type of ammo, and average weather conditions
- I'm not aware of too many manufacturers that offer the crush sight so AFAIK you're stuck with the east-bloc surplus

They are cool for what they do, but you will get a lot more versatility out of a mil-dot reticle and you'll be able to estimate range and holdover without making adjustments, once (if?) you get used to it.


ETA: if you did have your heart set on a crush sight, google up "SVD reticle" or "fin-dot reticle" and see what options are available for sale . . . whose are the two I know of, but there may be more.

[Jeriah]

Then are there scopes that are fixed, but also mil/mil? I can't find any online.

The rifle comes drilled and tapped for scope rings. I saw a lot of Burris rings for around $30. Is that appropriate?

I use Burris Xtreme Tactical rings - they are bulky and strong yet I still managed to strip a screw...

You can find the Supersniper Tasco remakes that are fixed and mil-dot reticles but yes, MOA turrets... I usually make my corrections via turret clicks, use the mil-dots for ranging/quick adjustments.

The SuperSnipers are a little kept secret in the shooting world and I have personally seen one of these in person and they are really well built.

This is the 10X fixed scope design that was submitted for a US Navy contract back in the day - http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical- ... -P500.aspx

For $399.99 you would be hard pressed to find a better scope - bear in mind that it has a 30mm tube btw. And for $299.99 you can get the same model with a rear focus instead of the side focus.

Question: So, side focus costs an extra $100, got that. But, even looking at the cheaper, rear-focus model, is there a feature that makes the one you recommend worth the extra hundred bucks over the one I mentioned (Bushnell Tactical)? They're both fixed-power 10x scopes. What's that extra hundred bucks get me?

[Erik]

Mil-dot and MOA math:
http://www.shooterready.com/rangingclass.html

That's not hard at all! Thanks!

[Sprout47]

Then are there scopes that are fixed, but also mil/mil? I can't find any online.

The rifle comes drilled and tapped for scope rings. I saw a lot of Burris rings for around $30. Is that appropriate?

I use Burris Xtreme Tactical rings - they are bulky and strong yet I still managed to strip a screw...

You can find the Supersniper Tasco remakes that are fixed and mil-dot reticles but yes, MOA turrets... I usually make my corrections via turret clicks, use the mil-dots for ranging/quick adjustments.

The SuperSnipers are a little kept secret in the shooting world and I have personally seen one of these in person and they are really well built.

This is the 10X fixed scope design that was submitted for a US Navy contract back in the day - http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical- ... -P500.aspx

For $399.99 you would be hard pressed to find a better scope - bear in mind that it has a 30mm tube btw. And for $299.99 you can get the same model with a rear focus instead of the side focus.

Question: So, side focus costs an extra $100, got that. But, even looking at the cheaper, rear-focus model, is there a feature that makes the one you recommend worth the extra hundred bucks over the one I mentioned (Bushnell Tactical)? They're both fixed-power 10x scopes. What's that extra hundred bucks get me?

Probably the only added benefit would be the 30mm tube versus 1" tube - more light in less light lost.

I personally went with the Leupold Mark 2 but I was really impressed with the quality of the glass and had a good talk with the owner (he let me pop off a few) - he claimed it has yet to lose zero for him.

Bushnell Elites are good scopes as well - I believe snipercentral ran a comparison between scopes like the Elite, SS and Millet - some where out there in internet land.

[Grey dog]

There are other range estimating and/or no adjustment holdover reticles available than mil dot. You may like Leupolds Boone and Crocket reticle. It has simple ranging and holdover marks integral to the reticle with no math needed. There are others as well.

http://www.gunblast.com/Leupold-VXIII-BC.htm

Here's some interesting reading on long range shooting. The gear may be in a higher price range than you are considering, but there's still good information here. He goes into some detail on range cards also.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/practica ... equipment/

[Erik]

Which Weaver mount should I get? Are they all basically the same? The Savage I have is pre-drilled and tapped for a mount.

[KarLorian]

SFWA's sister site SampleList has a Super Sniper w/ FFP for $499

http://www.samplelist.com/SWFA-3-9X42-S ... -P143.aspx

It's used but LNIB condition.


Thanks to Sprout47 for cluing me into SampleList, it will definitely be where I buy my SS from.

[T-Boon]

Sorry to thread jack, but how do you actually use the druganov scope ?

Set it at 100m, then how much for each click on the scope etc ?

[donjulio]

Each chevron is the aiming point for a specific distance. Top is 100 yards, next one down is 200 yards, etc. I believe that the .308 is similar enough to the 7.62x54 for the aiming points to work. For calibers with much different trajectories and power, you would need to adjust the scope and confirm aiming points.

[Sprout47]

Sorry to thread jack, but how do you actually use the druganov scope ?

Set it at 100m, then how much for each click on the scope etc ?

Actually - when using the 7.62x54r you zero the scope using the dials on top of the turrets, the ones you unloosen the screws to operate, put everything on 0 and zero at 25m. lock down the turrets and then the dials are correct for the various ranges 1-2-3-4- etc., the chevrons are for using 7.62x39 - zero the same and then use the chevrons for 100m, 200m, 300m etc. There are two different types of chevrons and turret dials, 8 position and a 12 I believe. The 12 is not exactly 100, 200, 300 - there is information on the web for what distance the dial positions match-up to.

[crypto]

Is there a particular scope mount you guys recommend? Or are they all the same?

I prefer the Leupold QD bases and rings, but thats just me.

If you dont want QD ability (meaning, your rifle doesn't have iron sights, or you don't care to use them once you put the glass on) then the sameness of them all gets a lot more pronounced. Burris, Weaver, Leupold, they all make excellent scope mounts.

However, I cannot overstress the importance of properly preparing them before clamping your scope in.

* Use loc-tite on the bases.
* Use a wooden dowel with some emery cloth or fine sandpaper to prepare the insides of the rings.
* Use a spirit level or plumb bob to establish the vertical and horizontal planes when lining up the reticle.
* PUT THE PROPER EYE RELIEF ON THE SCOPE
* Use Loc-tite on the ring screws
* Do not overtighten the rings.

[SpecialK]

Each chevron is the aiming point for a specific distance. Top is 100 yards, next one down is 200 yards, etc. I believe that the .308 is similar enough to the 7.62x54 for the aiming points to work. For calibers with much different trajectories and power, you would need to adjust the scope and confirm aiming points.

The chevrons aren't 100, 200, 300 . . . the turrets take you out to 1000, the chevrons are then 1100, 1200, 1300.

[donjulio]

Each chevron is the aiming point for a specific distance. Top is 100 yards, next one down is 200 yards, etc. I believe that the .308 is similar enough to the 7.62x54 for the aiming points to work. For calibers with much different trajectories and power, you would need to adjust the scope and confirm aiming points.

The chevrons aren't 100, 200, 300 . . . the turrets take you out to 1000, the chevrons are then 1100, 1200, 1300.

I realize that they do not go in exact sequential order, but did not remember the range increments past 200 or 300. I do however know for sure that the top chevron is not supposed to be set at 1100 . That would put your 100 meter aiming point somewhere completely outside the reticle.

http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/manual/KO4 ... Manual.pdf

Aiming chevrons
The chevrons are designed to adjust for bullet drop of ANY caliber, provided you know the ballistics of the ammo. If the
top chevron is zeroed at 100 yards, aiming with 2nd, 3rd and the 4th will drop the aiming point by 1.2”, 2.5” and 4”
accordingly for each 100 yards of the distance.

[SpecialK]

Each chevron is the aiming point for a specific distance. Top is 100 yards, next one down is 200 yards, etc. I believe that the .308 is similar enough to the 7.62x54 for the aiming points to work. For calibers with much different trajectories and power, you would need to adjust the scope and confirm aiming points.

The chevrons aren't 100, 200, 300 . . . the turrets take you out to 1000, the chevrons are then 1100, 1200, 1300.

I realize that they do not go in exact sequential order, but did not remember the range increments past 200 or 300. I do however know for sure that the top chevron is not supposed to be set at 1100 . That would put your 100 meter aiming point somewhere completely outside the reticle.

http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/manual/KO4 ... Manual.pdf

Aiming chevrons
The chevrons are designed to adjust for bullet drop of ANY caliber, provided you know the ballistics of the ammo. If the
top chevron is zeroed at 100 yards, aiming with 2nd, 3rd and the 4th will drop the aiming point by 1.2”, 2.5” and 4”
accordingly for each 100 yards of the distance.

That may be true for those scopes that kalinka makes with the same style of reticle, and the same or some similar principle is true for all scopes with graduated reticles (if you know the MOA of the graduation). However, he had asked how to use the Dragonuv scope. The PSO-1 was designed for the lower chevrons to take you past turret adjustments, once you had adjusted all the way. I double checked the manual, and I was wrong - the turrets go to 850m, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chevrons are 1000m, 1100m, and 1200m respectively.

http://www.jgsales.com/manuals/pos1.pdf



ETA: The manual you posted says the same:

The 1000 meter Dragunov military reticle has an extremely effective and useful height-based rangefinder for dual
use, with graduated scales for both standing and prone figure estimation. It includes extended distance inverted
chevrons providing aiming points for 1000, 1100, and 1200 meters. Since the range calibrations are measured in
equal amounts of MOA, this reticle can be used effectively with any caliber of weapon

but the good folks at kalinka were also nice enough to provide the MOA of the chevrons so you aren't stuck using it in that manner, should you choose to mount the scope onto some other caliber weapon.

[T-Boon]

FYI i managed to find this helpfull pic.


Also

It's easier than it might look. You use the top center "chevron" (^) to aim. The horizontal hash marks are for windage holdover.

The range finder scale in the lower left is used to spot a 1.7 meter tall target. Place the target on the bottom horizontal line. Where ever it touches on the scale above is how far away it is in meters.

Presumably you would get a range reading on your target then dial your elevation drum to the appropriate distance number to coorespond with the target distance.

The three lower chevrons in the center are used as hold over points for targets beyond 1000 meters (the maximum setting on the elevation drum). You would spin the drum to "10" then hold high for 1100, 1200 or 1300 meters respectively.

/Back on topic !

[Erik]

If I buy a scope with adjustable parallax, will that be the same, effectively as having an FFP scope?

Meaning, can I still use the mil-dot to determine distance on a variable power scope as long as I have changed the parallax adjustment for the magnification I'm on?

Thanks!

[agent-smith]

If I buy a scope with adjustable parallax, will that be the same, effectively as having an FFP scope?

Meaning, can I still use the mil-dot to determine distance on a variable power scope as long as I have changed the parallax adjustment for the magnification I'm on?

Thanks!

No.

[Erik]

Haha, I love straightforward answers. Thank you!

I will (hopefully) be done after just three more questions.

1) What about Vector Optics scopes? Are they any good?

2) Does anyone know what size rings I need for a SWFA Super Sniper scope? Are they 30mm?

and

3) Super Sniper scopes seem also too good to be true for the price. Are they really that good?

I'm just wondering, because I am leaning fairly hard toward the Super Sniper. This may sound ridiculous, but the sound of the name is kind of ridiculous and makes me cringe a little. I've heard some people say it's good, but the name just *sounds* like a Chinese scope someone picked up new at a flea market for $14.99. It just doesn't *sound* as reputable as a Nikon or a Leupold. Am I alone in that thought? Am I just psyching myself out?

[agent-smith]

Haha, I love straightforward answers. Thank you!

Yeah, I guess "funny deadpan" doesn't come across that well online (one of these days I'll remember that).

Well, the answer "No" is in fact correct, but for some more information the reason is that regardless of how well you adjust for the parallax, with a SFP reticle the reticle size remains "fixed", so that as you increase the magnification the size of the target increases in relation to the reticle. With a FFP, the size of the reticle remains "fixed" in relation to the target regardless of magnification.

Adjusting the parallax won't help.

1) What about Vector Optics scopes? Are they any good?

I doubt it. While I don't have any firsthand experience they are a Chinese bottom-dollar optics company. You get what you pay for.

2) Does anyone know what size rings I need for a SWFA Super Sniper scope? Are they 30mm?

Yes, you'll need 30mm rings for the Tasco SS.

3) Super Sniper scopes seem also too good to be true for the price. Are they really that good?

They are a great value for the dollar, but you're not going to get the performance of a Schmidt & Bender or U.S. Optics scope for $600.

I only have personal experience with one, and the "rear focus" adjustment broke.

I'm just wondering, because I am leaning fairly hard toward the Super Sniper. This may sound ridiculous, but the sound of the name is kind of ridiculous and makes me cringe a little. I've heard some people say it's good, but the name just *sounds* like a Chinese scope someone picked up new at a flea market for $14.99. It just doesn't *sound* as reputable as a Nikon or a Leupold. Am I alone in that thought? Am I just psyching myself out?

I'm right there with you; I despise the name which is why I typically refer to it as "SS" (which unfortunately has a bit of unwanted "Nazi undertone". I can't win).

I'm a gun snob (not as bad as DavePAL84, but that isn't saying a whole lot) and I like high-end stuff but I really think that for your purposes the SS is the best bet.

[Erik]

3) Super Sniper scopes seem also too good to be true for the price. Are they really that good?

They are a great value for the dollar, but you're not going to get the performance of a Schmidt & Bender or U.S. Optics scope for $600.

Are they the same quality as a comparably priced Nikon or Leupold?

[agent-smith]

3) Super Sniper scopes seem also too good to be true for the price. Are they really that good?

They are a great value for the dollar, but you're not going to get the performance of a Schmidt & Bender or U.S. Optics scope for $600.

Are they the same quality as a comparably priced Nikon or Leupold?

That is kind of hard to say, as I don't think that Nikon or Leupold makes a scope with the features of the SS in the same price range.

With tradition/hunting scopes, the main thing that determines the price point is the quality of the lenses/coatings (well, that and overall quality of construction). With "precision" optics, you have not only the quality of the lenses/coatings but the accuracy/repeatability of the adjustment turrets, the durability of the adjustment turrets, the accuracy of the reticle (not all "mil dot" reticles' dots accurately indicate 1 milliradian of distance, even when they are "supposed" to). With a variable scope, the point-of-aim/point-of-impact (what most just call "zero") can often change with magnification (it shouldn't, but it sometimes does).

A comparable Nikon/Leupold with "click" turrets, mil-dot reticle, etc. is going to start at $900-$1,000 or so and go up from there.

Go with the SS.

[Sprout47]

3) Super Sniper scopes seem also too good to be true for the price. Are they really that good?

They are a great value for the dollar, but you're not going to get the performance of a Schmidt & Bender or U.S. Optics scope for $600.

Are they the same quality as a comparably priced Nikon or Leupold?

According to reviews on the Sniper's Hide they are of the same relative quality (glass wise) as the Leupold Rifleman series.

[Erik]

Okay, one last question. I hope.

I'm also thinking of scoping a .22 Erma Werke rifle, since the sights are a little off.

Can a person go pretty cheap on a .22 scope? Since there's basically no recoil, can I go for a $40 scope and some cheapie rings?

Do you have any cheap scope recommendations for that caliber? What about magnification? You know, for killing and eating squirrels in the PAW and such.

[donjulio]

BSA makes a pretty good .22 scope with parallax adjustment for about $100.