How much trouble can you get in with a Widgy?

[squinty]

Almost every folding knife failure I've personally suffered or heard about has always involved using the knife as a pry bar. Folders don't stand up well to side loading, but sooner or later everyone tries to pry something with their folder. Not me, I decided. I got a pocket sized crowbar, well known on this forum, called a "Widgy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTzPQf3xW_Q
I figure if I carry a knife or multi-tool, I can stick a widgy in my pocket.
How likely is a police officer, magistrate, or DA to consider this item, carried in a pocket, to be a concealed weapon? It doesn't fold, and it's at least as much a weapon as a screwdriver. Or might they call it a burglary tool? How likely would anyone who's opinion matters be to accept that this is carried as an incidental tool, like a pocket knife or leatherman?

Note: CCW doesn't matter here, as in my state a permit only allows for a concealed handgun.

[alwayswandering]

If you're worried about being popped with that, you should move to a more Constitution friendly state.

[congochris]

Attach it to your keys, then it's obviously a keychain. The one I use is the Gerber Artifact, which is designed to be a keychain tool. It even has a spot for an Xacto blade. I was even passed right through security at the county courthouse with it. Apparently either they didn't look, or they just didn't care. Probably all they saw was a keychain, and not any kind of tool.

[ninja-elbow]

Pure anecdotal assumption here:

If you got caught by cops sneaking around somebody's back yard and had a Widgy in your pocket, that might be something a prosecuter could use against you.

For example, many years ago in 2003, a roomamte and I were watching boxing on TV one night when we noticed that 2 cop cars were outside our house and they were arresting someone. We came out and asked what was going on.

Cop, "Oh, there is someone home. We did not see lights on. Come here and see if you know this guy. He was in your backyard."

He leads us to the back of one of the cop cars and shines his light on a chubby WMA with glasses and a green winbreaker on. Total nerdy looking guy.

Me and roomy, "Nope." I then ask, "What'd he do?"

Cop, "He said he knew the lady that lived in your house. You have a lady in your house?"

Me, "Nope."

Cop, "We found these on him." the cop shines a light by the trunk lid of the car and we see a little pry bar, duct tape, multitool, fixed blade knife, rubber gloves, duct tape, some rope and condoms.

We later found out from another cop that they had spotted him walking in our neighborhood earlier and he had fit the description of a known BnE guy and sex-offender. They tracked him, he panicked and jumped into our backyard to hide.

I'll let y'all come up with your own moral to this story.

[squinty]

Pure anecdotal assumption here:

If you got caught by cops sneaking around somebody's back yard and had a Widgy in your pocket, that might be something a prosecuter could use against you.

For example, many years ago in 2003, a roomamte and I were watching boxing on TV one night when we noticed that 2 cop cars were outside our house and they were arresting someone. We came out and asked what was going on.

Cop, "Oh, there is someone home. We did not see lights on. Come here and see if you know this guy. He was in your backyard."

He leads us to the back of one of the cop cars and shines his light on a chubby WMA with glasses and a green winbreaker on. Total nerdy looking guy.

Me and roomy, "Nope." I then ask, "What'd he do?"

Cop, "He said he knew the lady that lived in your house. You have a lady in your house?"

Me, "Nope."

Cop, "We found these on him." the cop shines a light by the trunk lid of the car and we see a little pry bar, duct tape, multitool, fixed blade knife, rubber gloves, duct tape, some rope and condoms.

We later found out from another cop that they had spotted him walking in our neighborhood earlier and he had fit the description of a known BnE guy and sex-offender. They tracked him, he panicked and jumped into our backyard to hide.

I'll let y'all come up with your own moral to this story.

I did this dumb thing once:

Late nineties, before I knew or cared much about ccw, I had a friend who had some mysterious chest pains. Felt like angina, radiated down his left arm and everything, relieved by nitro. Stress test looked just fine, though. His doctor, based on family history I guess, wanted to rule out Marphan's Syndrome. Even though my friend was short and chubby.

So my friend has an appointment at Baptist Hospital, about a 45 minute drive from his house, on the same day that his wife needs to take their kid to some school function - she has to pick him up from his natural father's house. (My friend's a stepfather.) So he asks me to drive him to Baptist. I agree to pick him up at 11 AM.

At 1100 hours zero seconds on the dot I knock on his front door and get no answer. No car in the driveway - his wife would have been leaving about the time I was coming to pick him up. Lights are on in the house. I dither for a minute, thinking "undiagnosed heart condition, nobody else home, he's expecting me to be here but noone comes to the door...heart condition..." So I kick his door open and run in, screaming "Don't worry buddy I'm here for you!" Noone in the living room. So I charge down the hall yelling "It's ok, it's ok, I know CPR!" Nobody in the bedroom, kitchen, or bathroom. Nobody home.

So I wonder if he took a turn for the worse. Maybe his wife drove him to the ED or he had to call an ambulance before I showed up. I call 911 from his kitchen phone and ask if anyone has called an ambulance to that address. The dispatcher says "no, but the police have been called to that residence."

That's when I see the first of several police cars pull up to the curb in front of his house. I try to divest myself as quickly as I can of all folding knives, multi-tools and such (always, since I was in grade school, I've carried some kind of folding knife or tool) and go to the door to meet them. They are polite to me, but there's a tense moment when they ask for ID and I reach toward my back pocket to get it. They won't let me get my wallet out of my back pocket myself, ask me to remain seated on my friend's front steps and debate cuffing me. I try frantically to explain why I was in the house, but every few minutes another car shows up and the police already there have to bring the new arrivals up to speed.

About that time I see my friend's car pull up in the driveway. His wife is driving him. They had decided to run to the store for something (ingredients for some crock-pot dish iirc) before she left to pick up the kid, and assumed they could get home before I showed up because I had a reputation for being late. He verifies my story to the police, who drive away in disgust, and his wife yells at me about the door. I drive my friend to his appointment.

How easy is it to wander, stumble or get led by Mr. Murphy into an apparently compromising situation? And if you do, how well can you explain the contents of your EDC or BOB?

[AZMedic]

Umm I used to get questioned by the cops in some comprimising situations and its always starts with

Cop: Are you decent?

Me: Yes officer

Cop: ID

Me: And I have guns in the car

Cop: Just don't shoot me.

Me: I won't.

Cop: have a good night.

None of them in 8 times since I have been questioned have asked why I have a BOB.

[squinty]

Umm I used to get questioned by the cops in some comprimising situations and its always starts with

Cop: Are you decent?

Me: Yes officer

Cop: ID

Me: And I have guns in the car

Cop: Just don't shoot me.

Me: I won't.

Cop: have a good night.

None of them in 8 times since I have been questioned have asked why I have a BOB.

I haven't had any bad gun or BOB related experiences with the police, either. I was thinking of this guy:

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 32&t=51248

Though he admits up front to a history of antagonism towards these particular cops, and perhaps some ill-chosen gear. ("I've got at least six knives in the truck.")

Still, depending on the circumstances, gear can look suspicious or innocuous.

[gronch]

This link is an interesting read regarding how the process plays out regarding too much of one type of tool:

http://www.lexisone.com/lx1/caselaw/fre ... 1loc=FCLOW

Your pry bar only opens crates, pulls nails, and lifts table legs. So long as you do not intend to commit a crime, the pry bar only has these inert properties.

The moment you have intent to commit a crime, the pry bar transforms itself into an evil burglary tool. The pry bar is now cursed and has to be destroyed by throwing it into a lake of burning cat urine.

[KnightoftheRoc]

I want to give a big +1 to this ^^^

I was once stopped while on a construction job (we were working out back) as I went out front to the truck, a regular pick up truck with no signage, and had some hand tools in my back pocket. There was a large-ish flat bladed screwdriver in the mix, and a passing patrol car stopped as soon as they saw me- long hair, beard, Harley tee shirt, jeans, a truck they didn't know, and some tools sticking out of my pocket. As soon as they started talking "burglar tools" and the fact that there'd been some burglaries in this nice, rich neighborhood, I promptly invited them to look at the work I was doing out back. Upon seeing that my story checked out, they bid me a nice day, but I learned a few things from it.

1) look the part- if you want to get hassled and harassed by the local PD, give them a reason. Look like a criminal-type, and they'll assume you are one. Clean up your act, dress a little more in line with what society deems acceptable, and you'll LOOK like a professional, and be treated like one. This bears heavily on posts here regarding the grey man approach.

2) act the part- if you immediately get mouthy, rude, or belligerent with a police officer, he's not going to look kindly on it, and be very little inclined to leaving you alone. Act the part badly enough, and you can expect to see him or her again. And again. If you respond politely, act with an interest in the officer's safety (see anecdote below), and cooperate fully without giving up any of your rights (it CAN be done politely), the officer is less likely to think of you as some scumbag he or she is going to need to watch from here on out.

The above counts as important all the more in smaller communities, where the local PD is more likely to know or remember your name. Having gone to school with someone who has become a local PO can work in either direction for you, depending on the level of crap you dished out years before- and it's too late to do much about it now.

Anecdote- I once was driving home from work, when a state police car coming the other way popped on his lights just as he passed me. It startled me a bit, but I drove on- he was going the other way, after all. Moments later, he's in my mirror, lights still on, and I veer over toward the side to allow him to pass. He doesn't- I'm his guy. The road in this area was pretty narrow, and busy, with guardrails on both sides, but I knew of a pull off a mile ahead- I waved back through the pick up window to acknowledge him, and continued up to the pull off, signaled, and turned in. I shut off my truck, and got my paperwork from over the visor.
The officer was PISSED. I hadn't immediately pulled over, and had the AUDACITY to wave at him? I calmly and politely explained to him, that I felt the pull off was a much safer place for him to be standing on the traffic side of my truck, than the narrow area he found me in, and that I had waved to let him know I was seeing him, and complying. Turned out my inspection sticker was the wrong color (I'd forgotten to get it renewed), and that was why he pulled me over. However, based on the fact that I wasn't being an ass about anything, had no priors, no warrants, and the inspection was a fix-it ticket, he let me off with a warning and that was it.
So, a simple concern for the officer's safety, and showing it, paid off in an unexpected dividend for me. I'd have taken the ticket without an argument, had he written it- there'd be no fine if it was inspected and up to date by court time, so all I'd be out would be the inspection fee and some time. But as it was, I didn't have to go to court at all, and the next time he sees me, if he remembers me at all, it will be as a good guy, not a bad guy.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Umm I used to get questioned by the cops in some comprimising situations and its always starts with

Cop: Are you decent?

Me: Yes officer

Cop: ID

Me: And I have guns in the car

Cop: Just don't shoot me.

Me: I won't.

Cop: have a good night.

None of them in 8 times since I have been questioned have asked why I have a BOB.

"Are you decent?"?????? I sense a story behind that question!

[AZMedic]

Hey I needed some alone time with a little lady.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Unless 'she' is inflatable, that's not really "alone" time. "Alone time" is for when 'inflatable' is your next viable option.

[AZMedic]

Oh. well i see no trouble with the widdgie the cop didn't see problems with me and a female and guns so ya.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Despite my long winded ramblings in my earlier post, I'm back- deal with it, lol.

I thought of a much more succinct way to phrase my answer to this type of question- it HAS come up before- and it's quite simple.

Most localities use the word 'intent' when considering a given item as a burglar tool. Regardless, that gets settled in court, and you don't want to end up there. So..... Carry what you want to, unless it's already specifically outlawed in your AO. The fact is, any officer who is going to press a burglary tool charge based on a normal tool being carried for LEGITIMATE PURPOSES, is going to anyway, I don't care if you made the item in question out of Lego blocks.
And, before any resident LEO's become offended, note my use of the term LEGITIMATE PURPOSES- having established that fact, any decent type LEO is likely to simply warn you about the trouble you COULD have on your hands in other circumstances.

[jeep45238]

Anything that's not bolted down is a weapon if used inproperly - a fork, spoon, spork, pen, salt shaker, car - and quite a few things that are bolted down can be used as weapons as well, if one is stronger than their opponent.

You call.

[squinty]

Pure anecdotal assumption here:

If you got caught by cops sneaking around somebody's back yard and had a Widgy in your pocket, that might be something a prosecuter could use against you.

For example, many years ago in 2003, a roomamte and I were watching boxing on TV one night when we noticed that 2 cop cars were outside our house and they were arresting someone. We came out and asked what was going on.

Cop, "Oh, there is someone home. We did not see lights on. Come here and see if you know this guy. He was in your backyard."

He leads us to the back of one of the cop cars and shines his light on a chubby WMA with glasses and a green winbreaker on. Total nerdy looking guy.

Me and roomy, "Nope." I then ask, "What'd he do?"

Cop, "He said he knew the lady that lived in your house. You have a lady in your house?"

Me, "Nope."

Cop, "We found these on him." the cop shines a light by the trunk lid of the car and we see a little pry bar, duct tape, multitool, fixed blade knife, rubber gloves, duct tape, some rope and condoms.

We later found out from another cop that they had spotted him walking in our neighborhood earlier and he had fit the description of a known BnE guy and sex-offender. They tracked him, he panicked and jumped into our backyard to hide.

I'll let y'all come up with your own moral to this story.

See, at any given time I have most of that stuff either on me or in the trunk or glove box of my car. I bet most ZSers do. Condoms usually only if I'm coming home from the drugstore, but everything else, whew...I swear by all that's holy, all those items are there for perfectly legit reasons, but those reasons ("I want to be ready for the PAW!" "I don't want to someday damage my knife by prying with it!") might be too vague to convince a LEO. I do understand that "intent" is what makes it a "rape kit", but sometimes misunderstandings can arise wrt intent, and that's troubling. I guess it helps that the gloves are mixed in with other first aid stuff, the rope and duct tape are in a bag with flares, wheel chocks and jumper cables, the knife with a machete, shovel, wood saw and other camping equipment, etc.

[jdavidboyd]

Attach it to your keys, then it's obviously a keychain. The one I use is the Gerber Artifact, which is designed to be a keychain tool. It even has a spot for an Xacto blade. I was even passed right through security at the county courthouse with it. Apparently either they didn't look, or they just didn't care. Probably all they saw was a keychain, and not any kind of tool.

Last time I had to go in to the courthouse, to pay for not wearing my seatbelt, I got stopped for the pair of tweezers hanging on my keys. You know, those little precise military ones? Happened the time before too.

They looked at them as they went through the x-ray, then they examined by hand (couldn't figure out what they were, or how to get them off of the holder.) I showed them they were tweezers, then they had to have a supervisor ok them for me.

[jeep45238]

How much trouble can you get in with one? Well, by golly, as much as you're looking for, maybe more!

[ninja-elbow]

The moral of my story to me was ideally intent. Most cops will not even see what is behind my seats in my truck or my commuter bag. The reason why is because I don't do stuff that makes the cops search me thouroughly on a regular basis (eg: crawl around somebody else's backyard after midnight uninvited).

It's like anything else we own:
guns, knives, axes, gas, rope, books on doing stuff with stuff to people, lighters, lock picks, numchcks and ninja-stars...
it is all about intent. For the most part it is OK to own most of the above things but it is not OK as per the local LE if you are caught with them while sneaking around doing dubious things with a record of doing such things on your shoulders.

As KnightoftheRoc says, stay clean and be responsible and you don't have problems 99.9% of the time. Some call it karma but I call it pragmatic and smart.