EMP, Why bother?

[JakkSchitt]

Personally, my EMP preps are for the results: long term loss of power, no water, food distribution interruptions, panic.

+1

[Vicarious_Lee]

I've been following this thread for a while now, and finally couldn't let this nonsense go unanswered.

*answers nonsense. somewhat*

Thanks for the informative post, and I appreciate some of the clarification. However, your Personality Faraday Cage is letting a large amount of asshole-frequency radiation through. I don't know if that's E1, E2, E3, or from an internal source, so just like a real EMP threat, I still don't know how to shield from it.

Might wanna go to the Introductions forum and tell us a little about yourself, you know, now that you've popped in here and told us off all proper like.

Now for all you guys that know what you're talking about: WHAT. SHOULD. WE. DO?

Look, the science is still well beyond me, like a lot of modern science. I honestly don't need to know it, or it's not feasible for me to become an electromagnetics expert. I became an expert in something else. Let me try to lay out questions that I know are going to be very hard to answer, but I want to try to set some prep goals that could be both reasonable (not turning your entire house into a grounded tinfoil hat) and effective (more than "Duck and Cover" or stuffing your flat screen TV in your car).

1. Probability? How's this most likely gonna happen? Will it be global? Local?

2. Intensity? Are we gonna lose a few transformers, or are we talking straight-Thunderdome for 2-3 years with half the planet's population dying off in war and starvation?

3. Mitigation? What can we do, that we aren't doing already, to get both ourselves, our family, our community, and our country prepared other than buying lots of guns and ammo and killing every starving person you see, which Mad Mike seems to think will be every person you see? I don't like that option. That sounds like TEOTWAWKI. There's a lot of stuff between SHTF and TEOTWAWKI, and I think we're all happy to try and figure out how we can turn TEOTWAWKI into more minor SHTF if possible.

4. Pull something out of your ass? Can one of the EMP fans give me, on a scale of 1-10, how likely this is to happen? I live on the gulf coast. "1" would be a hurricane. "5" would be yellowstone blowing its top. "10" would be an actual global zombie uprising.

The best, most concrete stuff I've read here, while good and well thought out, just doesn't leave me with any better idea now than I had before about this thing. I mean, I appreciate the help. I really do, but unlike that Global Warming thread, I'm not feeling like I have a direction or new understanding of what to do after I read it.

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be a dick (except at the beginning of the post. I was totally trying there), I'm just still not emerging with a clearer picture yet.

[mantis]

4. Pull something out of your ass? Can one of the EMP fans give me, on a scale of 1-10, how likely this is to happen? I live on the gulf coast. "1" would be a hurricane. "5" would be yellowstone blowing its top. "10" would be an actual global zombie uprising.

In terms of it actually happening? About an 8 or a 9. In terms of it being even half as bad as Hollywood would have us believe? About 10. This is about one of the least likely of the possible disaster scenarios as far as I'm concerned. The idea that a terrorist group of a rogue state could have the means (a large missile and a powerful warhead) and the knowhow to pull it off is virtually nill and even if they did pull it off, based on the available information and research, the resulting disruption would be minimal compared to the scenario presented in "One Second After".

[Browning 35]

One way to prepare for an EMP event seems to be building a Faraday cage for smaller electronic items.

This article gives a nice DIY approach to that:

http://preparednesspro.wordpress.com/20 ... aday-cage/

In all honesty that all I really CAN do from a financial perspective.

I've heard of people buying and fixing up older cars as bug out vehicles because they're supposed to be able to better resist EMP or a Solar Flare due to their simpler electronic design and the materials they use, but right now I just can't afford to go buying an EMP resistant BOV just in case an EMP attack occurs.

At some point in the future I plan on getting a deer lease and I'll end up buying an older 4X4 truck for that and maybe that could serve double duty as an 'EMP Resistant B.O.V.' since it might (I'm saying 'might' here because I don't know for certain) resist an EMP blast or a Solar Flare a little bit better than a modern car where there's an engine control module computer, sophisticated electronic wiring, IC circuits and other parts which may (or may not) be affected.

However...I wouldn't be buying it solely as an EMP resistant truck, that would just be a side bonus.....it would be a hunting truck that might fair a little better in case of an EMP attack.

Since looking at the various DIY Faraday Box plans I've seen the only other things that I could really do would be to put some spare automobile ignition parts, a spare battery in addition to putting my generator in there as well. That's about the best I could do right now. :shrug

1. Probability? How's this most likely gonna happen? Will it be global? Local?

From everything I've read at the very least if it were an EMP attack from a rogue nation or a group of well financed State sponsered terrorists it would at the very least cover several large States.

It could potentially affect the whole country, but several States at the very least.

2. Intensity? Are we gonna lose a few transformers, or are we talking straight-Thunderdome for 2-3 years with half the planet's population dying off in war and starvation?

In all probability somewhere in the middle.

Electricity goes out, lights go off, people freak out, the unprepared and the criminally inclined loot, burn and kill and injure people that get in their way, large scale civil unrest/riots, military troops and the NG get called out and mobilized, sections of the country under martial law, gangs and vigilantes completely rule some areas and some areas of the country are almost completely unaffected, food shortages, starvation and malnutrition in urban areas, economy goes into the toilet and the US defaults on foreign debts, some disease due to waste disposal, poor hygiene, lack of treated water, decreased access to medical care, HUGE increase in crime.....things of that nature depending on if the people doing the asymmetrical strike had their shit together and how large of a device they used, how far up it was etc etc.

Kind of hard to say, but to me that's a middle of the road scenario if they pulled it off.

Read that book 'One Second After' that's been mentioned a couple times....that's paints a much bleaker picture of what could happen.

3. Mitigation? What can we do, that we aren't doing already, to get both ourselves, our family, our community, and our country prepared other than buying lots of guns and ammo and killing every starving person you see, which Mad Mike seems to think will be every person you see? I don't like that option. That sounds like TEOTWAWKI. There's a lot of stuff between SHTF and TEOTWAWKI, and I think we're all happy to try and figure out how we can turn TEOTWAWKI into more minor SHTF if possible.

• Prepare the way that most of us are doing anyway.
• Get a community based defense plan ready before anything happens (doesn't have to just be for an EMP attack).
• Build or buy a Faraday box and put vulnerable items in there.
• If you're well off financially build a bunker and have a EMP resistant BOV.

4. Pull something out of your ass? Can one of the EMP fans give me, on a scale of 1-10, how likely this is to happen? I live on the gulf coast. "1" would be a hurricane. "5" would be yellowstone blowing its top. "10" would be an actual global zombie uprising.

I'd personally say that on that scale it's like a 7.5 or an 8.

Devastating if it happened, but fairly unlikely to occur simply because of the technology needed.

(However most people didn't see 9/11 coming either - Plus a 10 is a Global Zombie Uprising, that's REALLY unlikely to ever happen)

[mzmadmike]

Minor solar storms happen frequently, and can affect power distro locally.

Carrington type CMEs are estimated every 500 years. It's been 150 years since the last one.

Bigger flares, or things like supernovae are rarer, and will also start to directly affect life from the particles/wavefront, as well as the EM field and power.

Lightning strikes and severe storms happen daily.

A terrorist EMP is probably not very likely.

A rogue state EMP is as likely as any other rogue state attack, and will depend on their capabilities and intent.

As with anything, the worse the scale, the less likely it is to happen.

As with anything, if it's worst case, not much you can do other than hang on with determination. At the bottom end, a few basic preps will suffice. In between is the gray area where it gets big enough to cause secondary effects.

[DarkAxel]

Well, I'll address the title of the thread:

EMP, Why Bother?

The answer? Same as Zombies, Why Bother?

If you're prepared to survive an EMP and the resulting crisis afterward, you stand a pretty good chance of surviving just about any other disaster you can think of.

Someone prepping for EMP is really no different than someone prepping for zombies, civil unrest, the collapsing economy, or (fill in the pornoclypse scenario here). They have identified a threat to their way of life and are preparing to make sure that threat causes as little disruption as possible. Of course there are threat-specific preps, but the vast majority of preps can apply to any SHTF situation, be it a local SHTF or one that leads to a global PAW and everything in between.

[mystic_1]

Well, I'll address the title of the thread:

EMP, Why Bother?

The answer? Same as Zombies, Why Bother?

If you're prepared to survive an EMP and the resulting crisis afterward, you stand a pretty good chance of surviving just about any other disaster you can think of.

Someone prepping for EMP is really no different than someone prepping for zombies, civil unrest, the collapsing economy, or (fill in the pornoclypse scenario here). They have identified a threat to their way of life and are preparing to make sure that threat causes as little disruption as possible. Of course there are threat-specific preps, but the vast majority of preps can apply to any SHTF situation, be it a local SHTF or one that leads to a global PAW and everything in between.

^
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This.

mystic_1

[Vicarious_Lee]

Well, I'll address the title of the thread:

EMP, Why Bother?

The answer? Same as Zombies, Why Bother?

If you're prepared to survive an EMP and the resulting crisis afterward, you stand a pretty good chance of surviving just about any other disaster you can think of.

Someone prepping for EMP is really no different than someone prepping for zombies, civil unrest, the collapsing economy, or (fill in the pornoclypse scenario here). They have identified a threat to their way of life and are preparing to make sure that threat causes as little disruption as possible. Of course there are threat-specific preps, but the vast majority of preps can apply to any SHTF situation, be it a local SHTF or one that leads to a global PAW and everything in between.

^
|

This.

mystic_1

Should I start a new thread titled: "Re: EMP, does anyone actually know anything useful or concrete to do besides saying 'I'MA PREP FO DAT SHIT CUS WE 'POSED TA PREP! FOO!'"

?

My problem isn't "Why prep for EMP?" My problem is "WTF, exactly, do I need to do to prep for it, and how practical are those preparations, and to what extent is the threat realistic?"

EDIT: Sorry I went full asshole there, darkaxel. I think your point is valid, and it may be the best way to approach the situation because no one really seems to know what, where, when, how, or how bad, etc. this whole "EMP" thing could be. Or even how different it could be from other "pornocalypse" (love that word) scenarios.

Wait, is there credible evidence that a coronal mass ejection or high-altitude nuke explosion could reanimate the dead?

[Browning 35]

Wait, is there credible evidence that a coronal mass ejection or high-altitude nuke explosion could reanimate the dead?

If we say yes then will you freak out with us about EMP???

[s2la]

Wait, is there credible evidence that a coronal mass ejection or high-altitude nuke explosion could reanimate the dead?

If we say yes then will you freak out with us about EMP???

Um, how about *maybe*?

Yeah, sorry about the assholatry in my first post. I'm a scientist and I get *really* pissed at folks who like to claim they know what they are talking about ... and know only what they read in a WIKI, so I like to post facts with minimum personality. Sort of like me coming in and telling the rest of you to prepare for Zombies by watching Bruce Cambell ...

... ok, bad example.

Anyway, mzmadmike invited me to come over and look over the thread.

As for prepping, there is one key item - I really *don't* think Joe Everyday Citizen is going to be able to sufficiently shield personal electronic items from EMP. Thus prepping needs to concentrate on technical means that *don't* involve electronics. Written records in place of hard disks, map&compass instead of GPS, some way of storing water and fuel because electric fuel pumps might not work even off of wind and solar in the absence of power grid.

'nuff for now, I'm on the wrong coast for a couple of days and it's still daylight with things to do.

s2la

[s2la]

Well, I'll address the title of the thread:

Wait, is there credible evidence that a coronal mass ejection or high-altitude nuke explosion could reanimate the dead?

Hmm, let's see, muscles are operated by a combination of chemical and electrical means...

EMP could produce electrical currents in zombie tissue...

who knows what the CME and flare might do to the chemical processes...

So, mmmmmmaybe

[DrunkWookiee]

As for prepping, there is one key item - I really *don't* think Joe Everyday Citizen is going to be able to sufficiently shield personal electronic items from EMP. Thus prepping needs to concentrate on technical means that *don't* involve electronics. Written records in place of hard disks, map&compass instead of GPS, some way of storing water and fuel because electric fuel pumps might not work even off of wind and solar in the absence of power grid.

s2la

Good advice. Have low-tech backups.

[raptor]

There is a lot of good information in this thread. Preparing for a long term power outage (for whatever reason) makes a lot sense and is a good use of your planning and preparation time and resources.

[Vicarious_Lee]

Wait, is there credible evidence that a coronal mass ejection or high-altitude nuke explosion could reanimate the dead?

If we say yes then will you freak out with us about EMP???

*goes to bonanacrom's house*
*does Panic Dance*

Oh, and s21a: Thanks. That's exactly the kind of "I no unnerstand dis shit", rubber-meets-The-Road kind of distillation of what to do that I was talking about.

Now I feel a little better.

[Glennbo]

My problem isn't "Why prep for EMP?" My problem is "WTF, exactly, do I need to do to prep for it

Put very simply you should prep for being without electricity or any outside source of supplies for about 6 months to a year.

While coping with that is difficult enough, the truly hard part is dealing with millions of desperate people behaving very badly. They're not just going to crawl into a hole and die.

It's an almost impossible task. Which makes the much chastised "Why bother" title somewhat appropriate when you get right down to it.

[Glennbo]

One thing that can help you survive is knowing that an EMP event has occurred at all, and what that truly entails. The vast bulk of the population won't understand just how bad it is at first. There will be no way for them to get information about the event. Televisions, radios, phones, and computers won't be functioning. This gives those of us who DO know about EMP effects a "grace period" of three days or so to move around and fortify before people really start to become terrified and uncontrollably dangerous. I suggest you use those first few days very wisely.

[Rev]

The biggest thing outside of "normal" end of the world preps is REALLY getting over the idea you can do this alone or with just your own family. This is a fantasy for all but the most remote. There are dozens of articles on here on what type of organizations you should join. A friend of mine wants to get enough copies of One Second After for all of our county level politicians and lower. Might scare them enough to actually get plans laid out or pay more attention to the ones they may have already. At the very least you should be part of your neighborhood watch, and if you don’t have one you should really look into starting one. We’ve even got them out my way among the various different hamlets and villages, and the more decentralized people just about always keep watch and alert each other and the Sheriff of strange goings on. Prepping seems to be “in” at the moment, and many of us should be capitalizing on it.

[kiwilrdg]

With all this talk about the catastrophe from not having radio, television, or the internet I am really happy that I would be very comfortable without those (but out of work). I have made my preps for a loss of the electrical infrastructure and as a result I only have nice-to-have items that are electrical or electronic. All my need-to have items are mechanical.

[JakkSchitt]

How about giving a list of those non mechanical items? A few I can think of off hand are:

*A bucket and plunger can wash clothes
*A solar oven can cook your food and not worry about running out of gas
*If you are in a cold climate extra warm clothing for yourself, family and possibly extra people that might be with you. Blankets can be put up on windows to help insulate your house.

[kiwilrdg]

How about giving a list of those non mechanical items?

Just think 1870s farm or Amish.

[mzmadmike]

Minor events mean no cell phones and trouble with reliable electrical power. Moderate ones mean no computers. A severe one means no cars--the ignitions will be fried. You'll be walking to wherever you need to shelter, and you won't be able to call ahead.

As said before, the minor ones have happened and are significantly more likely. Basic prep is to have paper maps, written phone numbers, and cash for gas and hotels. Move fast away from crowded metro areas, or bunker down in place. Things will steady out in a few hours to a couple of days, but it's sure nice to have a hotel and to know where you're going.

[Browning 35]

Wait, is there credible evidence that a coronal mass ejection or high-altitude nuke explosion could reanimate the dead?

If we say yes then will you freak out with us about EMP???

*goes to bonanacrom's house*
*does Panic Dance*

Does the 'Panic Dance' involve moving your legs around while simultaneously loading up mags from stripper clips?

My problem isn't "Why prep for EMP?" My problem is "WTF, exactly, do I need to do to prep for it

Put very simply you should prep for being without electricity or any outside source of supplies for about 6 months to a year.

While coping with that is difficult enough, the truly hard part is dealing with millions of desperate people behaving very badly. They're not just going to crawl into a hole and die.

It's an almost impossible task. Which makes the much chastised "Why bother" title somewhat appropriate when you get right down to it.

Well would be pretty difficult if it's just you and your family (unless you're a polygamous Mormon with 5 wives and 25 kids - Where the wives are all into IDPA, IPSC, 3 Gun, Former Military and/or hunters themselves and where most of the kids are older teenagers who are also good with firearms), but it's not impossible for a group that has their shit together just so long as they're not located in a urban city where there are millions upon millions of starving and desperate people looking to run you over and take your preps.

It would be difficult, but it could be done.

That's where close friends and family members who are also prepared come in. One family alone in an urban is sunk, but if you throw in with several different families with close friendship or blood ties in a somewhat rural area where you know many of the local authorites personally (as a Volunteer Fireman or as a Reserve Officer) then I think you'd have a pretty good shot at making it.

[DropZedFred]

Same issue from another perspective - SCADA controllers - also subject to EMP/CME and hackers (Foreign and Domestic).

Basically as others have said - Prep for the effects...

RF testing is easy enough, put your cellphone in the [insert device here] and call that number.
If the phone rings, it will be toast in an event (EMP/CME). Testing outside of the RF range is more difficult and costly.

[KC44]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.

Will EMP kill/disable/destroy LED flashlights? Is it a good idea to have some old school flashlights hidden away?

edit: While researching my question I ran across this 7+ year old thread asking the same question. Some good info there on EMP.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho ... p?t=179040

Answer is EMP most likely will not screw up an LED flashlight.