EMP, Why bother?

[Geppato]

Speaking of which, pace makers or anything electrical in bodies is gonna go down as well. People with newer cars that have bug out bags and contigencies to bug out if SHTF aren't going anywhere if there is EMP going down.

But to offer insight (I am not a scientist, but I know EMP...) batteries are vulnerable to EMP... but in the form of shorting out.



I mean seriously, if EMP is a factor in any case then that is worst case and I would suggest everyone get prepared for some Book of Eli shit going down.

[kiwilrdg]

A pulse strong enough to melt wires will likely be enough to fry brains. Thus you wouldn't need to worry about a car.

Of course you also need to bear in mind that the conductor will only experience enough current to have any damage if it is in a closed circuit. Even if I were driving when the EMP occured and it fried my car but not my tinfoil helmet I could use my spare wiring harness, generator, points, distributer....I think you get the idea, I am ready to rebuild a car. Since the spare parts are not connected to anything the induced voltage will dissipate through eddy currents and not fry the spare parts.

If they still fried I would imagine I would burst into flames anyway. Nice knowing those of you with piercings

[Geppato]

[none1]

Step away from the computer and get a life.

AMG NO THAT IS SO MEAN. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[none1]

Have some chips and go play WoW.

oooo GREAT idea. BRB.

Remember, in ZOMBIELAND Columbus survied the first wave of the ZPAW safe in his room because he was playing WOW.

[Silent Kube]

But also remember, he had never gotten laid.

[sql_yoda]

if EMP is a factor in any case then that is worst case and I would suggest everyone get prepared for some Book of Eli shit going down.

I would suggest preparation for some more likely shit going down. All it takes is for your locality to get flooded for a day or so before your city water is undrinkable for a week.

A few days after that if you are still alive, maybe focus on lack of food for your kids. There's a lot of shit than 'can' go wrong but only you know what is likely to go wrong first.

Lack of electricity has been covered in probably hundreds of threads... but I'm willing to bet not nearly as many as lack of water or food.

Sorry but these discussions mostly impress upon me how many folks are willing to talk your ear off about what you should do but have very little idea what should be done to safeguard themselves.

[Rev]

if EMP is a factor in any case then that is worst case and I would suggest everyone get prepared for some Book of Eli shit going down.

I would suggest preparation for some more likely shit going down. All it takes is for your locality to get flooded for a day or so before your city water is undrinkable for a week.

A few days after that if you are still alive, maybe focus on lack of food for your kids. There's a lot of shit than 'can' go wrong but only you know what is likely to go wrong first.

Lack of electricity has been covered in probably hundreds of threads... but I'm willing to bet not nearly as many as lack of water or food.

Sorry but these discussions mostly impress upon me how many folks are willing to talk your ear off about what you should do but have very little idea what should be done to safeguard themselves.

EMP equals no water once the pressure goes off the lines. Added to that the problems of communication since the phone grid and our cell phones will be out, you can see how people might be concerned with the potential affects. Hell, even if EMP wasn’t so end of the world it probably would mean an economic collapse with the shaky footing we’ve been on recently. Like it has been mentioned several times already prepping for an EMP is no different than any other major preps. Unless of course this is an argument against people who prep for societal breakdowns then this really should be a different discussion altogether than EMP.

[kiwilrdg]

I have been thinking and last night I saw the light.
I have decided that I do need a steel faraday cage that can be used to surround 2 to 4 people and our bags of gear.
This cage would have sheet steel fabricated over a reinforced steel body and would be fairly heavy so I will have it on wheels so it can be easily moved. Perhaps it will even have a motor to allow it to be moved under its own power.

If you don't see where I'm going with this then you must have holes in your tinfoil helmet.

[Geppato]

With that thinking why not create a giant faraday cage around your car... with faraday wheels... with faraday spinners...
THEY SEE ME ROLLINNNNN

[kiwilrdg]

Since a solid sheet metal case can work as a faraday cage there is really no need to worry unless the EMP is so strong that rocks are exploding around you.

[Geppato]

microwaves are EMP proof... so they say... but everything you are going to use to harden against EMP (giggity) has to be grounded or it is pointless...

[mantis]

Speaking of which, pace makers or anything electrical in bodies is gonna go down as well. People with newer cars that have bug out bags and contigencies to bug out if SHTF aren't going anywhere if there is EMP going down.

But to offer insight (I am not a scientist, but I know EMP...) batteries are vulnerable to EMP... but in the form of shorting out.



I mean seriously, if EMP is a factor in any case then that is worst case and I would suggest everyone get prepared for some Book of Eli shit going down.

Not likely. Pacemakes don't have antennas and they are not connected to the electrical grid. US government testing of modern automobiles exposed to EMP fared extremely well. If they were turned off at the time of the pulse, there was no effect observed. In most cases where the vehicle was running, it simply stalled and could immediately be restarted. In only a small number of cases was there any damage done. Batteries are not impacted either - they have no antennas and they are not connected to the electrical grid. To be affected by EMP, a device would have to be plugged into the electrical grid or have a substantial antenna. Without that, there is nothing to conduct the pulse into it.

EMP as a weapon is almost entirely theoretical simply because nobody has ever tried an EMP attack on a large scale. I do, however, believe based on testing results that are available that the overall effect of EMP is grossly exaggerated. Even if someone could make a warhead large enough (none of the currently fielded warheads in world inventory are large enough to create that big of an EMP effect) and assuming that someone could launch that warhead some 1200 miles out into space (which nobody outside of a government presently could) I think it's hihgly unlikely that it would result in anything remotely approaching the "One Second After" scenario or anything like it.

By all means, I believe that preparing for a blackout - even an extended blackout is a necessary course of action but I also believe that trying to prepare for an EMP attack is likely a waste of time, effort and resources.

[Geppato]

What are you talking about?
I agree with the pacemakers I was just speculating there, but yes there are weapons designed specifically for EMP... And yes there are capabilities to employ them. And yes there have been tests where very large nuclear testing has yielded effects of massive EMP... We (The USA) have tested in the pacific with nuclear weapons that had effects of EMP in Hawaii...
The Russians tested their nuclear weapons over Kazakhstan that yielded high EMP effects for the area including a 300 mile long power line.
So... boom

[mantis]

What are you talking about?
I agree with the pacemakers I was just speculating there, but yes there are weapons designed specifically for EMP... And yes there are capabilities to employ them. And yes there have been tests where very large nuclear testing has yielded effects of massive EMP... We (The USA) have tested in the pacific with nuclear weapons that had effects of EMP in Hawaii...

Right....which didn't cause anywhere near even a fraction of the type of disruption that some people think an EMP will produce. To produce an EMP you need a large nuclear warhead and it must be detonated a long ways ~400 miles outside the atmostphere in order to cover a large geographic area such as the continental US. Such a thing has never been tried and never been tested. It doesn't require a specially designed weapon - it's simply requires a nuclear warhead of sufficient yield to cover the intended target area. The smaller the warhead, the smaller and more localized the effect. In fact, the largest of the currently fielded nuclear weapons (around 1 - 5 MT) would likely be insufficient to create EMP capable of covering the continental US.

Nobody truly knows what would happen if a large nuclear device was detonated that far out into space because it has never been tried over a modern population center - Kazakstan of the 1970s isn't exactly representative of North America today! The best they can do is simulate an EMP pulse and testing of that nature - done in large part by the US government - shows that the Hollywood version of EMP is little more than fantasy. Most things survive with little or no damage and that includes modern vehicles.

The Russians tested their nuclear weapons over Kazakhstan that yielded high EMP effects for the area including a 300 mile long power line.
So... boom

A power line - part of the power grid - not an electronic device sitting in someone's closet. Power lines are effectively huge antennas which is why they are affected. It's also why the power grid is effected. Communications devices are also effected due to their antenans as well. Other devices not connected to the power grid - especially those that are not running are likely immune and testing backs that up.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Do we have any of the Ham Radio operators involved in this discussion? It would seem to me that, EMP being a magnetic wave pulse, that the experience with propagating magnetic waves on purpose (which is what radio is, after all) might be pretty insightful.

[Squidi]

Do we have any of the Ham Radio operators involved in this discussion? It would seem to me that, EMP being a magnetic wave pulse, that the experience with propagating magnetic waves on purpose (which is what radio is, after all) might be pretty insightful.

I have a flawed and rudimentary understanding of things, so from my perspective. Emitted electromagnetic energy induces current in a remote wire/antenna. If you have enough energy, you can heat up that remote wire. So, if you put something that is fairly complicated, but not built for receiving radiation like a computer mouse in a situation where the tiny wires on the circuit board have induced current. If you induce enough current it will melt the wires or burn out the tiny chips.

[rpc]

Do we have any of the Ham Radio operators involved in this discussion?

Yes, I'm one of them, and my comments are posted above.

I guess the insight that I can add is that EMP (as caused by a nuclear blast in space) basically amounts to an extremely strong radio signal (concentrated mostly in the UHF range) which lasts a tiny fraction of a second.

That's why, in general, nothing will be damaged unless hooked to some kind of "antenna". And the type of damage that can be caused would be essentially equivalent to hooking the device in question directly to a strong radio transmitter for a tiny fraction of a second.

The mere presence of the electromagnetic field (i.e, radio waves) will generally not cause any damage. What causes damage is the voltage induced on a long conductor, if that conductor is hooked up to something that is somewhat sensitive. Specifically, however, EMP is not a magic bullet that mysteriously destroys anything that is vaguely "electronic", which is how it is frequently viewed.

The strength of the actual electromagnetic waves are stronger than typically experienced by people on an ongoing basis, but they are of a magnitude that one might experience occasionally. In fact, I'd have to check this, but I suspect the actual magnitude of the field at any given point would be around the same order of magnitude as a cel phone at a distance of a few inches. This type of electromagnetic field typically doesn't do any damage. The reason why it might do damage is because it would be taking place everywhere at exactly the same time. Therefore, any unshielded conductors would be able to pick it up, and potentially damage anything they are connected to.

As I stated above, IMHO, any "EMP attck" would almost certainly be part of a larger nuclear war, rather than a standalone event.

For those who are hams (specifically, ARRL members), QST has published a number of good articles on EMP, which are available online in the QST archives.

I don't lose a great deal of sleep over EMP (or similar phenomenona caused by solar activity). I recognize it as one way in which there could be fairly widespread and fairly long-lasting outages to power grids and communications systems. So it's worth planning for long-lasting power outages, especially since those could also be caused in other ways. IMHO, an actual nuclear EMP attack would be more significant as a first warning of a general nuclear attack, which would probably result in significant power outages even without the EMP.

Whenever the power goes out, I always turn on a battery powered radio. If I hear anything at all, then I'm not too concerned. If all of the local stations are off the air, then I would assume that it was a very widespread power outage, and I might get a little more nervous. And if absolutely everything, including out of town stations, were off the air, then I would start to get very nervous, since my default assumption in that case would be that a nuclear war had just started, and that additional missiles were on the way.

[rpc]

So, if you put something that is fairly complicated, but not built for receiving radiation like a computer mouse in a situation where the tiny wires on the circuit board have induced current. If you induce enough current it will melt the wires or burn out the tiny chips.

Heat is generally not much of an issue, so melted wires probably aren't something to worry about.

But your understanding is more or less correct. The mouse wire will, for a millionth of a second or so, have a voltage on it. The actual voltage depends on how long the wire is, how strong the EMP is, and probably a million other lesser factors that you can't really plan for.

So what happens if you hook up random wires in your electronic gear to random voltages? Hook 3.7 volts to the mouse wire. Hook 42.9 volts to the wire going to the monitor (because it was longer and just happened to be in a better spot). Hook 106 volts to your TV, because it was hooked to a really good antenna. Add an extra 31 volts to the power coming into your house. Hook 217 volts to your phone lines, etc., etc., etc.

Some of these things will cause damage, because the devices in question aren't designed to have those voltages hooked up to them, even for a millionth of a second. On the other hand, I suspect some of them will be fine.

[Tater Raider]

I was an electronics technician in the navy so I have some understanding of wave propagation.

Power grids will definately crash, street lights will blow out, power stations will get wrecked, and there will be some fires started by the electrical stuff. That's a given based on the tests made back in the 60's.

Solid state electronics will simply quit working. This is because the blue smoke that allows them to work is released into the air (you will see some coming out of dang near everything with a transistor in it). Anything with a chip that isn't shielded will be kaput.

Anything with an antenna on it will run an increased risk of being blown out.

So if you avoid a vehicle with a chip in it you are better off. That's not to say that you are completely safe from EMP in that vehicle, but repairs will be easier to make if you need to. The GPS, radar detector, any radios, the cell phone in your pocket, and any other electronic gear in the vehicle are toast unless you are parked underground or in a Faraday Cage. The passenger compartment is too open.

rpc raises some valid points as well on the other side of the issue. Some of this is not known for certain because there are too many variables, so I plan worst case.

Link to a Picture of a Boeing E-4B undergoing EMP testing

I've seen what happens to cars that are put in the same test setup as the plane pictured in the link there. They stop working because the chip is fried.

Future Weapons EMP Test Video

[KnightoftheRoc]

I have a flawed and rudimentary understanding of things, so from my perspective. Emitted electromagnetic energy induces current in a remote wire/antenna. If you have enough energy, you can heat up that remote wire. So, if you put something that is fairly complicated, but not built for receiving radiation like a computer mouse in a situation where the tiny wires on the circuit board have induced current. If you induce enough current it will melt the wires or burn out the tiny chips.

Granted- however, temperature rise has a ramping up period, however brief it may be in a given conductor. The ramping up period in most conductors will exceed the period of time a magnetic pulse will be inducing that current. EMP is not a sustained effect (picture a single wave front followed by several greatly diminishing waves, moving at nearly light speed), and I really don't think that most unprotected conductors will experience as much damage as is thought by most.

I'll give a (crude) example to illustrate. An LED that is designed to run with a voltage of 1.25 VDC can be tested (lit up) with a 9 volt battery. 7.2 times it's rated voltage. Now, if you hooked it up and left it, the LED is going to burn out in short order. However, if you 'flick' one wire across the battery post while the other lead is attached to the battery, the LED will light, and remain usable. The time factor here is (how long and how high the voltage is applied) vs. (how fast will the LED heat up to fail point).
This is something anyone can try on their own, for very little money. Just watch your polarity, or it won't work.

My belief, based on electrical training I've had, and some personal experience with magnetic fields (NOT EMP or nukes) is that the damage caused, and there WILL be SOME, is that it won't be as bad as we might think. Still, slight damage or severe, there will BE damage, and prepping to avoid it by sticking what I want to protect in a steel ammo can (as a Faraday cage) seems a simple and inexpensive enough prep, that has advantages for things other than EMP.

[DarkAxel]

I'll throw in something else here.

A certain understanding of nuclear weapons effects might be useful for this discussion. (Any elaboration and/or correction of this info is welcome) When a nuclear weapon detonates, the energy given off is in the form of radiation. Alpha, Gamma, and X-rays IIRC are the main forms. What causes the blast is that the surrounding matter (bomb components, case, delivery vehicle, and even the air) absorbs so much energy that it explodes because it can't hold any more. Near ground level, the very air burns black and creates an energy barrier that blocks much of the radiation as it expands. The EMP effects from a ground burst or low altitude blast are very short lived and very localized. Most of the energy ends up as heat, light, and pressure.

When a warhead goes off at a very high altitude, the air is much thinner, there is less dust, soot, ash, what-have-you in the air to absorb the energy, so much of it is released as electromagnetic radiation. A high-altitude nuclear detonation is the ONLY current way that someone could hit majority of the CONUS with EMP. And lets face it, if a nuke goes off over the CONUS, someone else is going to get nuked somewhere else, which may or may not lead to a global nuclear war and TEOTWAWKI.

I can deal with a power outage. I can deal with not having electric powered gizmos to help me live my life. I can even get around without a car. A world without the Internet for a few years isn't the PAW.

[wastan]

read the earlier posted links to the EMP commission. For example, at its most sophisticated, HEMP may be optimized for EMP yield which I guess might provide wider coverage or intensity of EMP burst. Second, it isn't the inevitable start of a widespread exchange between arsenals, if we even knew whom to attack in retaliation--intel that may not be a given in several scenarios we shouldn't discuss. Third, US forces would have to be prepared to deal with threats and pressure on allies from highly interested but uninvolved third parties--and with stockpiles so low, every warhead counts so bouncing rubble in Pyongyang just because it feels good is a non starter. Fourth, nearly 100% commitment of first responders by this kind of attack would create opportunities for terrorists homegrown and abroad. Everyone here says they're prepping for SHTF, well S meet F. Otherwise you're just fantasizing to justify your ammo stockpile.

[none1]

I'm not an electrician, maybe some of you folks can explain this for me.

The vast majority of cars DIRECTLY hit by lightning have little to no damage done to them, and the occupants inside are most often safe, and the cars are driveable afterwards, and most often start. (this is from auto insurance claims data). Yes, some cars are fubar, but many are very driveable afterwards, so much so that insurance claims adjusters have trouble finding evidence of lighting strike to backup claims for paint or tire damage.

How come? --- little google tells me that high voltage electricity likes to travel around the outside of the conductor. OK whatever.

SO, if most cars directly struck by lightning are driveable aftewards, why would an EMP fry all cars so they won't be driveable? Are EMPs going to be much more powerful than direct lighting strikes?

Thanks!