One of my main fighting tactics, weapons based.

[Grant]

I'm not saying it's a good idea (and even if you are using a revolver that's set up for such, you still have a pocket full of burning gas and likely smoldering cloth too) but it is an option if you are really about to be killed. It's certainly NOT the best choice, but it is A choice. I'd be trying my best to get out of knife range in the first place, myself, if that is at all an option. People today forget just how dangerous a blade really is.

[Power Fail]

This is so strange, because I've played the 21 foot rule as a gunman against a knife wielding opponent, and I have never seen the knife not get five rounds in him before closing the distance. Now, the knife guy was no Olympic sprinter, but he was an athlete and I'm no ninja, but I maybe am better trained than an average person. Having seen it play out already, I'll totally take the draw on that.

What I need to find out is what is the distance the I CAN'T beat him at ....

First, I'm guessing you are trained a bit better than most.

Second, both participants in the Tueller drill know what's going to happen. You're negating how long it takes your brain to process "holy shit, this complete stranger is running at me with a fucking knife!" because you already know who's going to attack you, with what, from where, etc., and you're just waiting for him to start his charge.

That's a lot different then walking out of a restaurant, turning the corner, and a guy screaming "GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!" with his knife in your face. Or even just going about your daily activities, going to the ATM (I know, I know, who uses those anymore, but still), and a guy starts walking up on you quicker than normal. You can't just draw on everyone that gives you the creeps, but by the time he reveals his attack, he's already too close to you. Like Phil said, rare will be the occasion that someone paces off 21 feet, pulls out a nice, obvious Bowie knife, screams to get your attention, then blindly charges you like a bull.

The key concept in all of this is "ambush."

[tireiron]

I've got eleven years of martial arts in me, teach part time at the home school.

I've also been stabbed.

Knife in my face? I'm going for my CCW every time.


Not that I won't be kicking, blocking with my free hand/arm, and backing up as fast as I can, but all the weapon sparring in the world can not begin to simulate the immediacy of bladed weapons.

Consider the fade-away jumpshot: when things get too ugly at the top of the key, make yourself some room to work...

My google-fu is weak, but Mas Ayoob's books tend to illustrate this principle well. He advocates training to draw and fire with one hand, in case your other is busy keeping a bad hombre at bay...

[Defeater]

That's a lot different then walking out of a restaurant, turning the corner, and a guy screaming "GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!" with his knife in your face. Or even just going about your daily activities, going to the ATM (I know, I know, who uses those anymore, but still), and a guy starts walking up on you quicker than normal. You can't just draw on everyone that gives you the creeps, but by the time he reveals his attack, he's already too close to you. Like Phil said, rare will be the occasion that someone paces off 21 feet, pulls out a nice, obvious Bowie knife, screams to get your attention, then blindly charges you like a bull.

The key concept in all of this is "ambush."

This is why you carry a false wallet.

[Power Fail]

I've got eleven years of martial arts in me, teach part time at the home school.

I've also been stabbed.

Knife in my face? I'm going for my CCW every time.


Not that I won't be kicking, blocking with my free hand/arm, and backing up as fast as I can, but all the weapon sparring in the world can not begin to simulate the immediacy of bladed weapons.

Consider the fade-away jumpshot: when things get too ugly at the top of the key, make yourself some room to work...

My google-fu is weak, but Mas Ayoob's books tend to illustrate this principle well. He advocates training to draw and fire with one hand, in case your other is busy keeping a bad hombre at bay...

But you're still at least addressing the knife. The problem comes when "gun only" type folks, for lack of a better term, strictly go straight to trying to draw and shoot, without doing anything to at least temporarily take the knife out of play.

[phil_in_cs]

Again guys, this is a very simple thing to experiment with your buddies. Get a marker like a sharpie for the knife, and a blue gun or air soft. Start at mugging distances (arm's reach) and see what happens.

Don't worry if you've never had training on attacking with a knife. It is appalling easy to do. Wrap up his gun hand with your left hand, and make like a sewing machine with your right.

If you are not willing to do this simple test, then you are in denial about the situation.

[KnightoftheRoc]

I've got eleven years of martial arts in me, teach part time at the home school.

I've also been stabbed.

Knife in my face? I'm going for my CCW every time.


Not that I won't be kicking, blocking with my free hand/arm, and backing up as fast as I can, but all the weapon sparring in the world can not begin to simulate the immediacy of bladed weapons.

Consider the fade-away jumpshot: when things get too ugly at the top of the key, make yourself some room to work...

My google-fu is weak, but Mas Ayoob's books tend to illustrate this principle well. He advocates training to draw and fire with one hand, in case your other is busy keeping a bad hombre at bay...

I can't believe that it took till page three, before anyone mentioned backing up as he attacks- it not only keeps the distance between you as large as possible, for as long as possible, it also gives you time to draw. Granted, you're not going to out run him while going backwards, but if looneytunes-with-the-knife comes rushing at me, I'm gonna be backpedaling like I just walked in on my grandparents having sex. If only to give myself some reaction time.

[the_klenzer]

Again guys, this is a very simple thing to experiment with your buddies. Get a marker like a sharpie for the knife, and a blue gun or air soft. Start at mugging distances (arm's reach) and see what happens.

QFT.

I did this with some martial arts friends when I used to train. All of us went home wearing sharpie all over our faces - no one got shot before stabbing occured (we were using a plastic pellet gun).
Sobering.

Also learned, the defender cannot back up as fast as the attacker can sprint forward and make like the sewing machine.

I'm not saying I'd rather have a knife than a gun... (the gun isn't an option where I live) I'm just sharing what I learned in practical training.

[phil_in_cs]

I can't believe that it took till page three, before anyone mentioned backing up as he attacks- it not only keeps the distance between you as large as possible, for as long as possible, it also gives you time to draw. Granted, you're not going to out run him while going backwards, but if looneytunes-with-the-knife comes rushing at me, I'm gonna be backpedaling like I just walked in on my grandparents having sex. If only to give myself some reaction time.

I guess I wasn't clear before - I will not fight back with a knife, I will use a pistol for that. BUT, you must defend the knife and make yourself room to draw, or you will get seriously cut if not killed before you can kill your attacker.

Moving to 5 or 7 o'clock is often better than 6 from terms of both speed of movement and likely hood of not falling down. Falling in this situation is death.

[DrunkWookiee]

Great video on the subject here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3 ... 1&index=24

At 1:54 Gun Guy completely fumbles his draw and Knife Guy finishes him off.

[phil_in_cs]

Great video on the subject here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3 ... 1&index=24

At 1:54 Gun Guy completely fumbles his draw and Knife Guy finishes him off.

Agreed! I trained w/ Suarez last month on this subject. I haven't had a chance to train w/ Marc Denny yet, but he's on my to do list. I am training with Tom Sotis next weekend on empty hand knife defense.

AAR on the Suarez class is over on Firearms, and I will post up up an AAR of the Sotis class when I get back.

[DrunkWookiee]

Backpedling is BAD. An attacker can move faster and farther, moving forward, than you can moving backward.

The example of the guy backpedling and FALLING DOWN in Gabe Suarez's video is a great example of this.

[phil_in_cs]

Circumstances will dictate which direction you will go, but you're correct that you're likely to fall if you try to back step. If you do need to move back, you have to get your hips rotated so your feet are moving forward while you disengage/defend with your torso back to the attacker.

Moving straight back IS your natural response, and since it is a problem, you need to train yourself to do something else. Assuming no great size/strength disparity, moving to the outside of the striking arm is your best bet. You can block him inwards, and push his shoulders to turn his back to you so that you can draw your pistol and contact shoot him in the head.

That doesn't always work - at the Suarez class, on some of the knife defense drills my partner/attacker was a strength coach at a university. Trust me, you don't push a guy that can dead lift 500lbs very far. He was pretty quick too, on the football lineman explode off the snap type.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Backpedling is BAD. An attacker can move faster and farther, moving forward, than you can moving backward.

The example of the guy backpedling and FALLING DOWN in Gabe Suarez's video is a great example of this.

I won't disagree with this, but to me, standing still is worse. I'd rather take my chances backpedaling, or better yet, a side stepping movement, than standing there. Regardless of what weapon you are having to fight back with, you will need time to draw it, assuming you were attacked without warning (outside of a classroom, is there any other kind?), and a few steps could buy you that time. Perhaps 'Backpedaling' was a poor choice of wording, but suffice to say, movement equals distance, and distance equals time- not a lot of it, but some, maybe enough.

[DrunkWookiee]

Backpedling is BAD. An attacker can move faster and farther, moving forward, than you can moving backward.

The example of the guy backpedling and FALLING DOWN in Gabe Suarez's video is a great example of this.

I won't disagree with this, but to me, standing still is worse. I'd rather take my chances backpedaling, or better yet, a side stepping movement, than standing there. Regardless of what weapon you are having to fight back with, you will need time to draw it, assuming you were attacked without warning (outside of a classroom, is there any other kind?), and a few steps could buy you that time. Perhaps 'Backpedaling' was a poor choice of wording, but suffice to say, movement equals distance, and distance equals time- not a lot of it, but some, maybe enough.

Yes, standing still is bad as well. Any weapon disarming I've ever learned involved some combination of side-stepping, stepping into the attack, and circular Hapkido footwork. It helps you maintain your balance better than moving back and if the attacker is expecting the natural response of moving backward like Phil said, it might unbalance THEM physically and/or psychologically.

[DrunkWookiee]

Circumstances will dictate which direction you will go, but you're correct that you're likely to fall if you try to back step. If you do need to move back, you have to get your hips rotated so your feet are moving forward while you disengage/defend with your torso back to the attacker.

Moving straight back IS your natural response, and since it is a problem, you need to train yourself to do something else. Assuming no great size/strength disparity, moving to the outside of the striking arm is your best bet. You can block him inwards, and push his shoulders to turn his back to you so that you can draw your pistol and contact shoot him in the head.

That doesn't always work - at the Suarez class, on some of the knife defense drills my partner/attacker was a strength coach at a university. Trust me, you don't push a guy that can dead lift 500lbs very far. He was pretty quick too, on the football lineman explode off the snap type.

All my combative training is unarmed with some stick and blade training but your COA with a firearm correlates with my training. When facing a weapon wielding attacker...

1. Clear the line of attack (move outside the striking arm)
2. Control the attacker (push his shoulders and turn his back)
3. Counter-attack (contact shoot him in the head)

As far as strength goes, one my teachers said powering your way over opponents can work...until you face the guy stonger than you lol

BTW, looking forward to your next AAR, Phil.

[DarkAxel]

One of my weapons instructors (A total mall ninja. I had to attend as part of my security guard training) once advised us to sidestep away from the attacker on his weak side (i.e. If a man has a knife in his right hand, step to his left so he has to reach across his body to strike you with the knife). I'm not quite sure of the reasoning behind this, as his explanation was drowned out by many yawns and the attentions of an attractive co-worker I was interested in having relations with.

Anything to that? The knife thing, not the relations...

[tireiron]

One of my weapons instructors (A total mall ninja. I had to attend as part of my security guard training) once advised us to sidestep away from the attacker on his weak side (i.e. If a man has a knife in his right hand, step to his left so he has to reach across his body to strike you with the knife) I'm not quite sure of the reasoning behind this, as his explanation was drowned out by many yawns and the attentions of an attractive co-worker I was interested in having relations with.

Conversely, if he lunges with his right, and you can step out of line of the attack to his right, then the guy will nearly have his back to you....

There are tons of options. The two worst? Backing straight up (backpedaling), and bleeding to death with a holstered gun.

Training (as opposed to yawning) will help you find the options that work for you.

[DarkAxel]

Training (as opposed to yawning) will help you find the options that work for you.

In my defense, the instructor actually claimed to be a ninjitsu master during his introduction (the guy was three hundred pounds of pure flab), and the co-worker I was flirting with was very attractive.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Training (as opposed to yawning) will help you find the options that work for you.

In my defense, the instructor actually claimed to be a ninjitsu master during his introduction (the guy was three hundred pounds of pure flab), and the co-worker I was flirting with was very attractive.

+1 to the training
I am always leery of anyone who refers to themselves as a master- to me, that is a title that should be conferred by others of that level. Did he have any kind of documentation to that effect? Also, a martial arts 'master' who has let himself go to that extent? Sounds fishy to me, content of the training aside. Generally, teachers of something as physical as a martial art (pick your flavor) tend to pay particular attention to physical fitness. I've met some who were as wide as a wall, but it was a SOLID wall, not a flabby one.

[DarkAxel]

Training (as opposed to yawning) will help you find the options that work for you.

In my defense, the instructor actually claimed to be a ninjitsu master during his introduction (the guy was three hundred pounds of pure flab), and the co-worker I was flirting with was very attractive.

+1 to the training
I am always leery of anyone who refers to themselves as a master- to me, that is a title that should be conferred by others of that level. Did he have any kind of documentation to that effect? Also, a martial arts 'master' who has let himself go to that extent? Sounds fishy to me, content of the training aside. Generally, teachers of something as physical as a martial art (pick your flavor) tend to pay particular attention to physical fitness. I've met some who were as wide as a wall, but it was a SOLID wall, not a flabby one.

A Back-woods private contract security firm paid this guy to come in and train us when the management decided to add personal protection to their portfolio. From what I can gather, they hired him on the basis of an ad they found in some trade circular, or SoF magazine.

By the time I had landed in this clusterfuck class, my IADT for the KY NG was already two years behind me, and my BS meter pegged as soon as the guy started flapping his gums. A lot of what we did was fun in a wannabe badass way, but had little practical value. He actually spent half an hour on the subject of ear-pulling as a self-defense technique. I should really look this guy up again and see if he's any relation to Gecko45. IIRC he got shit-canned when one of the regional supervisors called him out over his supposed military record, and management decided that the whole personal protection thing was too expensive to maintain (Insurance).

I have since sought out REAL instruction from REAL professionals (see some of my earlier posts in this thread) since I left that company courtesy of the Lexington PD's Citizen Police Academy, and various other sources.

ETA: I'm gonna dig through my papers to see if I still got that certificate they gave me and get the guy's name.

[Murph]

Deflect, move pass them, haul ass.

..only if you can, obviously.

[tireiron]

In my defense, the instructor actually claimed to be a ninjitsu master during his introduction (the guy was three hundred pounds of pure flab), and the co-worker I was flirting with was very attractive.

Yeah, anybody that describes themselves as a master probably isn't worth your time.

[Regular Guy]

Of all my training knives are the toughest. I have yet to walk away without an simulated "injury". I've "won" with sticks and canes but knives, never. Whether I get the arm wrapped up, block and deflect or a good kick. Always got "cut". And when I lose, I lose big.
Best defense is a good offense and a circular movement. Counter strikes to the leg muscle above the knee and the tricep. Triceps because they move the arm out. Thigh muscle because it makes the leg move. Hands are great targets because they hold the knife.