What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Big popa L » Mon May 10, 2010 10:36 am

I am new to this site and it seem like the people on this site are a very inteligent thoughful group, and I like that the people here also have a more realistic thoughts about a SHTF contingency plan.

So I pose a question what about family? I have a six year old boy and I wonder about what I would do with him, most tactical scenarios don't teach about how to be while caring for a young one, thoughts of diaper bags and sippy cups molle attatchment come to mind :D and my wife is a country girl and a ER/hospice nurse and about as tough as they come and a crack shot so I don't worry about her as much and my parents live a couple of states away, so again not a realistic concern.

So any comments are appreciated, like how to move a family safely if we have to bug out, do any of you have thoughts of gathering family and loved ones that aren't as prepared and or capable of defending themselves, or are knowledgable on surving?

I can't imagine abandoning my family and frankly would rather die with them than leave them,
And sorry if this thread has already been created, like I said I'm a noob

thanks for your comments
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Blacksmith » Mon May 10, 2010 10:39 am

I your son still in diapers ans sippy cups at 6? This makes a big difference in what you will need to do.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Big popa L » Mon May 10, 2010 1:38 pm

No he doesn't but it sounded funnier than action figures and legos attatchments :mrgreen:
and Im hoping I'm not the only one out there that's spawned a little mall ninja.

So I'll start it off.

During any catastrophic event we are never in the right place wether it be work, the store or even on vacation, kids are at school, daycare etc. Wifes at work, home, grocery store etc. Would you leave it up to chance and hope every one gets home? Would you trust a teacher or daycare worker with your kids wellbeing when SHTF. What if you have a career where you can't leave work, I'm an EMT/ volunteer firefighter and if I'm on shift I can't drop what I'm doing because there will be major panic etc that needs attention and tons of calls.

So what good does all our preparedness do if we can't utilize our resources?
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Dannyboy » Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 pm

Lots of threads on this. One's even on the same page. :P
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62072

Here's some others that got linked to.
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=20177
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16368

From my experience with my family... practice your hiking/camping before hand and try to bug in if at all possible.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby phil_in_cs » Mon May 10, 2010 2:01 pm

Big popa L wrote:I can't imagine abandoning my family and frankly would rather die with them than leave them,
And sorry if this thread has already been created, like I said I'm a noob

thanks for your comments


I would never leave my family. You need to look at bugging in, rather than out. You can never take enough supplies along for your family, and living in a place that is relatively secure and defensible is your best bet.

If you live in an area you expect not to be livable after a disaster you see as likely, you need to relocate now, not after the disaster.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Big popa L » Mon May 10, 2010 2:20 pm

Thanks guys I will check those other threads.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby NorrisUnleashed » Mon May 10, 2010 2:33 pm

This is the setup your looking for.
Image

Seriously though, all my preps center around having three children. Bugging in is the only way to go. Bugging out is definitely a very last resort. (The zombies are calling from inside the house!!!)
One thing I did think of was one of those green gardening wheelbarrows with the big air filled tires.
Good luck man! PM me when you come up with a perfect solution!
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Kelvar » Mon May 10, 2010 3:00 pm

Big popa L wrote:Thanks guys I will check those other threads.


Hey Big popa, why don't you stop by the introductions part of the forum and tell us a bit about yourself?
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby eugene » Mon May 10, 2010 3:16 pm

Putting the realism hat on for a minute (I know spoil all the zombie fun) you need to think about what kind of scenarios could happen. Storms, power outage, riot, etc. Are your kids at home when your at work or at school. What happens to the school in an emergency,lock down, no one in or out, how do you get your kids if so.
You can always count on bugging in, what if something happens to your house, fire flood, hurricane Katrina? Practice bugging out, you don't have to tell your family your bugging out, just plan an overnight weekend getaway. See how much work it is to pack, what you forgot and had to buy, what you could buy duplicates of to have prepacked. How did your family handle the overnight trip, easy/fun or all stressed out? If stressed out on a planned overnight mini vacation imagine how they would be in a disaster. How can you make it go better?
My kids now have their own BOB's only they are not called that yet, just travel backpacks. We pack their little kid digicams, leapster, bibles, etc. They are getting used to packing their stuff which is practice for when I add more survival type gear to their bobs.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Big popa L » Mon May 10, 2010 3:24 pm

Ok that movie messed with me ,as somewhere between 28 days later and deliverance. And the ending made me think of the ending to the mist. Do you leave your kids to chance or do you end the potential suffering.

I get that bugging in is the best way to go, we have supplies, a small garden, a pond out front, not very defendable but a good option.

I guess I want to hear peoples thoughts about how to get family home, and would you shelter others not in your contingency whether they be extended family or friends, and would you patrol for loved ones in your town?

Kevlar asked that I introduce myself

I am a 32 year old father of one I am a EMT/firefighter I am training to be a Paramedic. I have no military training but was raised by my brother who was an Army Ranger, I am a country boy who lives by a little of the " country folk can survive" mentality. I learned a lot about living off the land before I ever learned about firearms. I admitidly recieved most of my "tactical" training as a child from Sly and Arnold and have spent the last 20 years trying to unlearn them.
I am an archer first and then a gunner next. I make bows and I know how to make steel from sand and charcoal, I make my own blades, and know how to make my own hooch ( though it ain't any good) I am learning to believe in the common good and teaching my son that though they may not have ravenous craving for brains most people are already zombies( at least where we live)
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Marinus » Mon May 10, 2010 3:42 pm

Big popa L wrote:I am a 32 year old father of one I am a EMT/firefighter I am training to be a Paramedic. I have no military training but was raised by my brother who was an Army Ranger, I am a country boy who lives by a little of the " country folk can survive" mentality. I learned a lot about living off the land before I ever learned about firearms. I admitidly recieved most of my "tactical" training as a child from Sly and Arnold and have spent the last 20 years trying to unlearn them.
I am an archer first and then a gunner next. I make bows and I know how to make steel from sand and charcoal, I make my own blades, and know how to make my own hooch ( though it ain't any good) I am learning to believe in the common good and teaching my son that though they may not have ravenous craving for brains most people are already zombies( at least where we live)


Not totally on topic, but you have a lot of PAW-relevant skills you can learn your boy. Well, he may be to young for the weaponsmith skills you have, but it really doesn't hurt to start with the whole "living off the land" thing. It can't possibly be bad for a 6-yo to know wich things he can and cannot eat in nature. Well, it may be wise to leave e.g. gathering mushrooms of limits for now, but there's a possible start to build up the SHTF-skills of your kid. It really doesn't hurt if your boy has some PAW-relevant knowledge if the SHTF.
Last edited by Marinus on Mon May 10, 2010 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Big popa L » Mon May 10, 2010 3:46 pm

Again sorry this is my first forum,somebody asked me to introduce myself, I'm learning as I go. Thanks for the heads up.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Marinus » Mon May 10, 2010 3:57 pm

Big popa L wrote:Again sorry this is my first forum,somebody asked me to introduce myself, I'm learning as I go. Thanks for the heads up.


Oh, I'm sorry, with "not totally on topic" I meant myself, because my post isn't exactly on topic. I didn't mean to say you were off topic.
English isn't my native language, so it's my bad... :lol:
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Big popa L » Mon May 10, 2010 4:02 pm

No offense I appreciate the input more than you know, as many people don't take these questions seriously, so I appreciate the feedback, and English is my first language and I butcher it all the time so in comparison you handle it rather eloquently. Again thanks.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby raptor » Mon May 10, 2010 4:43 pm

Welcome to the forum Big poppa L. There are many threads dealing with family issues and it is a concern for most ZS'ers. There is no one fits all answer. It really depends on your individual circumstances. I suggest that you spend some time reading the hall of fame forum and use Google to search this forum for any particular questions.

That said this is the introduction thread.
viewforum.php?f=10

You can simply cut and paste your introduction here in that thread. We ask this of everyone.

Again welcome to the forum! :D

Feel free to PM me should have any further questions about the forum.
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Re: Children and Survival/Preparedness

Postby Browning 35 » Mon May 10, 2010 5:06 pm

Yeah, I hear you. Children are often an after thought when it comes to preparedness.

Try this site.

Listening To Katrina Blog (*Click*)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

If you're looking for a short primer on children and preparedness here's one that I came up with.

~ Thoughts On Children And Preparedness ~

Items that you'll need and things that you'll want to think about in regards to kids.

1 ) Diapers, baby wipes, trash bags and/or a shovel - entrenching tool : For the obvious.

2 ) Pedialyte, water, formula, baby food or child oriented food that they'll like : So they stay hydrated and well fed. Kids aren't going to like MRE's or canned corn at every meal, they're kind of picky. If it's a choice between eating something nasty and not eating at all they'll usually just not eat.

3 ) Sun block/sun screen : Babies are very prone to sunburn because their skin hasn't gotten used to it yet, so you got to rub that stuff all over their face, hands and neck to protect them. They hate it (I used to anyway when I was a kid and we went to the beach or the desert), but it's for their own good.

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4 ) A hat and proper clothing for the environment : A hat's necessary so they don't get sunburn on the top of their head or they'll need a woolen or fleece beenie with something that covers the ears so they don't lose too much heat if they're in a cold environment. Kiddos also need clothing that's specifically suited to their surroundings as if they're really young, they can't tell you if they're too hot or too cold and if they're being carried or wheeled around they're not going to be generating much heat from exercise.

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5 ) A warm sleeping bag and a blanket : So they don't freeze and so you've got something to lay them down on that's padded and clean.

6 ) Bug spray : So they don't get eaten alive by bugs and something like Calamine Lotion, Aloe Vera gel and/or Cortisone creams for when they get bitten by bugs anyway (trust me, they will).

7 ) Transport : A way of safely transporting them if they can't walk or if your traveling over far distances (on level surfaces like with a stroller), in a backpack system of some sort if you're on foot (such as a 'Baby Sling'), a car seat so they're safely strapped in when riding in motorized transport or in the back or front of a bicycle.

It's obviously better to transport your kids to wherever you're bugging out to by car/truck, but that may not be an option (something as simple as flooding or traffic jams/gridlock with people trying to get out of town all the way up to something as exotic as EMP or a solar flare where your vehicle in inoperable may make this impossible). It's always good to have an alternative means of transportation.

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8 ) Medical gear and various meds : Cold remedies, cough syrup, an Epi-Pen for bee stings, syrup of ipecac and activated charcoal in case they ingest something they shouldn't (afterall they'll be outside and you know how kids love to shove things in their mouth), some glucose, maybe an albuterol inhaler if you have any kids in your party with asthma, gauze, tape, bandaids, neosporin, burn spray, sterile saline, pepto etc etc.

9 ) Hygiene : Mothers spit on a thumb or forefinger may take off just about everything on a child and get them presentable in most situations during normal times, but when she runs out she's going to need a toothbrush and toothpaste, hand wipes, baby shampoo and soap made for sensitive skin (if you do have access to water), wash cloths and small towels, 'No Rinse' (*Click*) waterless soap and shampoo, baby powder, lotion, comb/brush etc etc for her child.

10 ) Games and Toys : Something for them to do that will keep them occupied and catch their interest. Otherwise they're going to become VERY restless, they'll be very loud and unhappy and they're going to drive you nuts. Having something that they can play with will make your life and their life a whole lot better.

Kids are also tuned in to what their parents are like. If you're freaked out, stressed and/or really emotional that's gonna pass right along to your kids and they'll be the same way. The best thing you can with kids is to give them something to occupy their time (such as doing something productive that improves your family's situation), keep a tight rein in on your emotions and at least try to them happy and not so focused on the situation at hand.

11 ) Introducing kids to preparedness before anything ever happens: For the older kids (8 yrs old on up to their teens) taking them hunting and/or camping a lot might get them prepared for this kind of thing in a gradual way. Plus over the course of time it'll show them what they'll need to survive and possibly even thrive during an emergency.

The phrase : 'Dad, I didn't have any toilet paper and I tried to use poison ivy!!!' isn't something that you'll want to hear, better that they know what poison ivy looks like to begin with so that they can avoid it. All this will get them involved in survival plans in a fun way and it'll expose the older children to firearms and firearms safety. Most kids like camping and hunting, I know that I did anyway.

Also emergency drills on what to do in case of a house fire, how to dial 911, basic first aid, signalling and what to do if lost in the woods might also save their lives. Hell, some kids even think that these kinds of drills or lessons are fun.

If they're going to be traveling, then a small well made backpack might be in order if they're old enough (I'm not talking about babies or toddlers) to carry a small amount of food, a small container of water (a lot of water weighs way too much for them to carry unless they're practically an adult), lightweight items of clothing etc etc.

This might be a good backpack for children.
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12 ) Defense for older kids : If you're dealing with a fairly responsible older kid (what kid is totally responsible?) and you want to get them involved in firearms and firearms safety start out with a BB or airsoft gun, let them work their way up to a pellet rifle, then a .22 rifle (that's what many of our first guns were), then a .223 or a .243 bolt action, then the lower caliber handguns and then maybe an SKS, a 9mm carbine or an AR-15 (none of them recoil all that much) after you've seen that they're up for it and that they're handling themselves responsibly.

Pellet rifle to get them started (they should still be supervised)
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Ruger 10/22 rifle (this is what a lot of us started on when we were kids).
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Make sure they're ready for it and don't just turn them loose on their own with a firearm after a few practice sessions though. That's a good way for an accident to happen, kids should be supervised at all times whenever they're handling a weapon. I'm sure you know this already, but I still gotta say it.

Thoughts on 'Bugging Out' : I'd much rather 'Bug In' than 'Bug Out' and in most cases you really shouldn't be going anywhere as home's usually the safest place for children as they're in an environment they're used to and comfortable with. Plus most if not all your preps are already there.

However there could be a hurricane, a tornado, a flood, a Haz-Mat scene or civil unrest coming your way and you may have to move like it or not. A car, a truck with a shell or camper or a motor home's the next best thing to actually being at home, but some of the transport systems above may come in handy if you're forced to travel on foot or on a bicycle towards a friend or a relatives house.

This is what I came up with anyway, I hope it helps.

Edit : Fixed typo and added a link for the 'No Rinse' Cleanser.
Last edited by Browning 35 on Tue May 11, 2010 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Blacksmith » Mon May 10, 2010 7:19 pm

The most important part is to have a plan and then make sure everyone knows the plan.

The plan should cover the several disaster scenarios you expect to face and then a generalized, unexpected disaster plan.

Some key elements are many of the things you have already brought up such as

- where to meet
- who picks up the kids
- what to have ready
- who to contact
- back up communication plan for when the cell towers are down
- having packs ready to grab and go if you need to leave
- etc, et al infintium

A basic plan would likely revolve around staying in and then leaving if you absolutely have to.
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Re: Children and Survival/Preparedness

Postby eugene » Mon May 10, 2010 8:35 pm

Interesting how different people can sometimes get on the same page. For example copying Browning 35's list

1 ) Diapers, baby wipes, trash bags and/or a shovel - entrenching tool

For each of my kids the hospital have us a diaper bag, it had formula samples, coupons, etc. We bought our own diaper bags so I took each of those and packed in several diapers and those small packs of 10 wipes and left one in each vehicle. They came in handy a couple times over the years when we ran short on one item or another. I'd always rotate stock in them every so often to keep the diaper sizes current.

2 ) Pedialyte, water, formula, baby food or child oriented food that they'll like :

Pack lots of snacky foods, even if not hungry tossing a breakfast bar to a crying kid most of the time makes them happy.

7 ) Transport :

We have two kids, two vehicles and 4 car seats, bought one used on craigslist to save a little $ even. This was we have backup and spares.
Realizing that we need so much stuff to survive led me to a $600 bob for my truck
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And of course the backup transportation
Image

9 ) Hygiene : Part of my bug out gear consists of one of these for each family member.
http://eaglecreek.com/packing_solutions ... aby-41086/
Each is packed with our normal stuff, from toothbrush and toothpaste to spongebob and dora bandaids.

10 ) Games and Toys :
Each of mine has one of these http://www.vtechkids.com/product.cfm/Ki ... Plus/1634/
My son a Leapster II http://shop.leapfrog.com/leapfrog/jump/ ... -Leapster2
Both have one of those plastic yellow rayovac flashlights.
Each has a small kid size bible that we read from at bedtime.

12 ) Defense for older kids :
My parents bought my brother and I one of these http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns ... rYouth.asp when we were around teen age years. Small light single shot, 20 gauge barrel replaceable with .22 hornet. I still have mine and a whole case of target load for the 20 gauge and a clay thrower and clays. I'm thinking since my brothers sit unused at my parents house I'll offer him like $100 for his and then have a pair to pass down to my kids.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Browning 35 » Tue May 11, 2010 10:39 am

eugene wrote:Interesting how different people can sometimes get on the same page. For example copying Browning 35's list

Yeah, it is kind of weird that most of us end up in exactly the same place.

Kinda makes sense though if you think about it.

What works with kids and preparedness is just what everyone seems to go with once they have a little bit of experience with both. :shrug:
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby JTNieman » Tue May 11, 2010 11:06 am

@Browning 35; That's a pretty good comprehensive list. I'll have to save that somewhere to check against the unorganized pile of stuff for my boy, that I've yet to put in a bag :\ Pretty much covers the kid-specific stuff.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby eugene » Tue May 11, 2010 2:34 pm

http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/blogs/klessons/ is an interesting read, someone who bugged out of NOLA.
The big doc from ready.gov is actually decent other than omitting some controversial items such as guns.

You want to make sure the rest of your family shares the same views. My wife sometimes thinks I over pack and have too much gear but then one one of her mommy forums someone was in a city where some riot broke out close to home for someone posting and she got worried. She asked what would we do if something like that happened so I was able to re-iterate my plans, she is to head east toward my parents farm but take route 36/37 down through town x and try to take route 40 rather than take the outerbelt to avoid traffic. She should pack my backpack and ammo boxes in the truck and guns in the cases. Those are if of course I can't get home. Granted thats not all my plan, I kept it brief for the post.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Tater Raider » Tue May 11, 2010 3:11 pm

The following are my thoguhts on the issue:

Plan to bug-in, even if only to get the family together in one spot, and then bug-out. Plan rally points in case you are seperated and consider communications beyond cell phones. These are all big ticket items everyone should look at, but families with children should put extra effort into these areas in my opinion, especially that first one.

Talk bugging out with extended family so there is a plan in place they know about and can lay in some plans themselves. You don't have to use the phrase bug-out but you can say, "Hey, if a hurricane hits here we are going to need a place to go. Is it going to be a problem if we come over there and visit for 3 days or a week?" Nothing says that bugging out cannot turn into a tour of your relatives, visiting several grandparents, brothers, and sisters in turn so no one has to take up the whole burden of helping your and yours out during a crisis. (Company, like a fish left out, begins to stink up a house after 3 days according to Ben Franklin and I agree with him, even if it's family)

Most disasters have some warning, but there are a couple that don't so these need to be drilled for seperately and I do mean drilled. Tornadoes, earthquakes, and fire, be it house fire or wild fire, instantly spring to mind. Flooding should also be drilled for because I have discovered from personal experience water can rise a lot higher than anticipated and a lot faster as well, and I'm not talking about flash floods either but flooding on the level of what Tennesse is dealing with now and Iowa dealt with in '08 and most of the midwestern US in '93.

Realistically speaking preparing for zombies isn't something that people will take you seriously when you tell them that is what you are doing. However, if you are ready to deal with zombies, be they real or no, you are ready for nearly everything else. Pay special attention to the scenarios above that require you react now and react correctly though, and I strongly urge everyone to drill for them as well. Drill often until you get it right, then drill every now and then to make sure your family don't forget what they learned (random emergancy drill of the month?). Take turns planning the drills so everyone has to react to them.

Drill bugging out as well. Don't call it that to the kids though, call it a camping trip. This could be an annual, "spur-of-the-moment" trip that the adults are aware of but the kids don't know about until the last second. This will show you what works for you and what doesn't when it's safe for stuff to fail and also show you realistically how long it will take to get you and your family out of the the house with all your stuff and help you to better stage items where they are handy to just toss in the car or truck and go.

Others have put out a lot of good info here too that I didn't want to rehash, but it's worth mentioning again that kids get bored easily so plan distractions.

Hope this is stuff you can use.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Browning 35 » Tue May 11, 2010 5:52 pm

JamesCannon wrote:@Browning 35; That's a pretty good comprehensive list. I'll have to save that somewhere to check against the unorganized pile of stuff for my boy, that I've yet to put in a bag :\ Pretty much covers the kid-specific stuff.

Cool, glad I could help.

The small backpacks/'diaper bags' for the kids to carry are good too, but one thing that might help get you organized is some of those large black storage bins with the yellow tops at Home Depot (those are what I went with anyway) for specific areas. That way I also have a way of packing them up in a hurry as well (all I have to do is heave the bin in the back of the truck).

I list them by category.
  • Food.
  • Hygiene related products.
  • Medically related gear.
  • Communications gear.
  • Ammo.
  • Mags and spare gun parts.
  • Tools.
  • Batteries, rope, paracord, tape and other misc items
  • Camping gear in another.
  • Kid related stuff in yet another.
  • Stuff for my wife (tampons, extra luxury items like the lotion she likes etc etc) in another one and so on.

It makes it simpler that way, you'll know exactly where it is in an emergency and then you can just put the individual bags for the different kids (depending on how many you have) on each bin or hang them up on racks right above the bin or locker.
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Re: What about family when SHTF? Children, spouse, patents etc.

Postby Big popa L » Tue May 11, 2010 8:34 pm

I've recieved all these great ideas and haven't chimed in my self.

I've included in my bug out bag emergency medical supplies as well ( force of habit) mostly geared toward children.
- activated charcoal for poison(non acidic) and to help with water borne bacterias to help with vomiting and diarrhea
- a thermometer any work well but kids like the ear ones.
- blood pressure cuff (this may sound odd but when kids get sick or are under a great deal of stress they compensate for it great but the crash a lot harder and if you don't monitor them closely they can go into shock very quickly) not usually a problem but if there's not Dr. or ER to take your kid too, then your up the preverble creek. And you can pick one up for kids cheap off the Net.
- pedialyte someone mentioned this and it's a great alternative for hydration. Also you can learn how to make your own solutions from salt and sugar, look up cellular osmolity and isotonic solutions, but this is mostly used for IV therapies.
- a medical reference book with info about signs and symptoms a treatment for common emergency issues (again not something I recommend but in a pinch it's better to have a good old fashioned hard copy of need information and most treatments are simple and easy to execute.
- a simple fever reducer like childrens Tylenol, it has a several year shelf life and the it loses it effectiveness but not by much , again mostly a liability issue for the Co.


There are other items that I keep but I have access to them where it's impractical for most to obtain.

Also if anybody has any questions please PM me I am only an EMT-I but I can steer you in the right direction, and please take any advice with a grain of salt as I am talking about situations where there is no other option than to try and save a loved ones life otherwise it is always necessary to seek proper care.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke
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