Phil goes to an Appleseed

[phil_in_cs]

Appleseeds have been widely discussed, but I went to one this weekend and thought I'd toss my opinion into the mix since I have actually been to one, rather than throwing around hearsay. I compete at Service Rifle, and have quite a bit of experience in precision shooting.

General comments:

• 100% less cook/rifleman bullshit than what you hear from Fred
• Politics was confined to the 1775 era
• The oral history is fun for me, but I like StoryTelling in general
• Quality basic instruction in marksmanship

I brought a 10/22 that I've refitted (posts somewhere here in Firearms) and used that. We did all the work at 25 yards. The instructors said we'd take a group to the 400 yard course if we had enough that where shooting 190+ on the qualification target, which is reasonable. Since most of the people there were beginners, or at least beginners to precision shooting, that didn't happen.

My rifle ran well right up to the point on Sunday when we were going to start trying to qualify, and then safety decided it didn't want to disengage. I borrowed a similar 10/22 from an instructor, and spent the first qualification test getting it zeroed for me. On the second I miscounted how many shots to put where, and shot a good score on the 3rd and 4th test. The fifth test my brain was a bit fried from the concentration and my score tailed down into the 190s.

Some take aways:

• You should do this. It is cheap (free for ladies and active military) and solid instruction
• Making 'expert rifleman' is a HELL of a lot easier than getting an NRA Service Rifle Expert card. The target size is larger (4moa versus ~3) and you only have to do the score once rather than average the score over 5 scored matches
• That said, don't complain about this being too easy if you haven't done it. Lots of guys can hit a deer at 75 yards, shooting from a rest. Hitting a 1" square at 25 yards rapid fire without a rest is significantly more difficult. If you have a Rifleman badge, an NRA Expert card, an Army or Marine Expert badge, or something similar, you can talk about it.
• Don't waste your time going with a crappy rifle. I saw people fighting their rifles all weekend. Especially if you are new to shooting. Marlin, Ruger, and Mossberg all make very accurate .22LR for under $200. Mine is about $300 tricked out.
• Drop in .22LR converters for an AR aren't accurate enough for this.
• While we only shot at 25 yards, they do have sessions where skilled rifleman can shoot a full distance ranges. Really, the basic Appleseed is basic training. Take that, qualify and prove you are legit, then worry about shooting full range.
• Full distance Service Rifle and High Power matches are a better test, but you get very little help at a match as everyone is there to compete.

[mk_ultra]

I like what I am hearing . Glad you got something out f it .

The preaching and politics I have heard about through the rumor-mill has made me discount ever going to one , though I support them in spirit .

Maybe , I'll re-think that .

Thanks .

[Holger Danske]

It sounds great. I wish Houston had something like it.

[Paladin1]

Thanks for the report. I'm in the same camp as mk_ultra, I was not interested because of the BS. But I've wasted time on worse things, might be a fun day.

[phil_in_cs]

It sounds great. I wish Houston had something like it.

The one I went to was in Millican, between College Station and Navasota. Most of the people there were from Houston. They will start up again there in February or March.

They said they hope to have one going closer to Houston this summer.

Thanks for the report. I'm in the same camp as mk_ultra, I was not interested because of the BS. But I've wasted time on worse things, might be a fun day.

I'm sure it varies some, as you'd expect in any volunteer organization. Would vary by who showed up to take the class, too, if someone felt compelled to talk about politics all the time. But really, you spend so much time shooting there isn't much time for group discussions of any sort, and if you're the type to be offended that someone else believes something other than what you believe you need to lighten up anyway. I'm sure most of the folks there were pretty right wing, but that's the case at gun shows too and it was much less apparent at the Appleseed than at most gun shows.

[spyderco monkey]

Would a 10/22 with peep sights be sufficeint for one of these shoots, or are scopes mandatory?

Also, how many rounds are expended downrange?

[phil_in_cs]

Would a 10/22 with peep sights be sufficeint for one of these shoots, or are scopes mandatory?

Also, how many rounds are expended downrange?

The entire course of fire is built for a 10/22 with peep sights; that's what I used. Scopes are ok because some people can't see a 1" square at 25 yards. The official "what rifle" thread on their website: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=8163.0

I fired about 350 rounds. They suggested 400. One instructor did say they will usually stay as long as it is light enough to shoot and people still want tot try to qualify

[TDW586]

Sounds like a fun little course, and a good day at the range, phil. I'd like to shoot the course just to see how I do. I quality Expert on the USMC KD range, but I can see the benefit of rimfire practice on small targets, for sure.

[phil_in_cs]

Sounds like a fun little course, and a good day at the range, phil. I'd like to shoot the course just to see how I do. I quality Expert on the USMC KD range, but I can see the benefit of rimfire practice on small targets, for sure.

The biggest issue of course is a beginner won't even hit the paper on a full distance course. In a Service Rifle match, your first shots are standing unsupported at 200 yards. That's a bit much to ask from people just starting out.

The only problem with the reduced targets/reduced ranges are people who swear if you can hit the tiny target at 25 you can hit the full size one at 400. That's just not true. The converse is true - if you CAN'T hit the tiny one at 25 you WON'T hit the full size at 400. But once you pass 300 yards, wind effects become very pronounced, as well as knowing your weapon, ammo, and come ups.

[OpelBlitz]

The only problem with the reduced targets/reduced ranges are people who swear if you can hit the tiny target at 25 you can hit the full size one at 400. That's just not true. The converse is true - if you CAN'T hit the tiny one at 25 you WON'T hit the full size at 400. But once you pass 300 yards, wind effects become very pronounced, as well as knowing your weapon, ammo, and come ups.

That's true. The instructors I had at the Appleseed that I went to acknowledged that too, regarding 300-400 yard shots and more factors coming into play. They want to establish the basics though and those calculations were kinda beyond the scope of Appleseed. I agree with your assessment regarding having a good rifle. I bought a Marlin 795, threw Tech Sights and a USGI web sling solely for Appleseed and it's a great platform (and cost me nearly $100 less than if I went with a 10/22). It performed better than my M&P15-22, though I think this can be more of my fault, especially after seeing Dave's review and his shooting.

Good ammo helps too. I noticed a difference between using Federal bulk and CCI Minimag ammo, got better groups with CCI.

[Arch]

My range hosts an Appleseed shoot every year, but I've always avoided it.

This year I accidentally went to my range on the day of the shoot (forgot and went to practice). Since I drove the distance anyway, I watched for a few minutes. It seemed like more of a festival than disciplined training.

For whatever reason, I've always been cold to Appleseed. Maybe I need to rethink it. My wife would probably benefit from attending.

[Checkers]

GO!
http://appleseedinfo.org/as_schedule2.php

It's an awesome program for anyone of any age!
It will definitely teach you all the basics for becoming an expert shooter.

If you're a rightest, or a leftist however, don't go.
You will be offended by the ideals of freedom they speak of.

[TheLastRifleMan]

Phil, I have thought about attending one of these but, like some other folks have stated, the political bit also put me off. But the level training seems well worth it.

I will have to check one of these out.

Oh, yeah, I used to hold an NRA Sharpshooter ranking. But more training can never hurt!

[phil_in_cs]

Oh, yeah, I used to hold an NRA Sharpshooter ranking. But more training can never hurt!

That's my ranking too. I shoot well into the expert range at times, then stink it up the next week. You have to shoot 3 80 round regional matches or 5 50 round National Match courses at the minimum level to get a new classification. That's a lot of consistency.

I'd probably get accused of sand bagging my classification except one of the worst scores I turned in was at the state match

[Noven]

Hmmm, maybe I will go to one with my WASR-2 =)

[phil_in_cs]

Hmmm, maybe I will go to one with my WASR-2 =)

Any rifle is welcome, but....
I came up with this example talking w/ someone. If your rifle and ammo can print 5 shots onto a quarter at 25 from a rest, then the rifle and ammo are good enough. They will teach you how to hit that quarter without using the bench and rest.

But, if you're shooting 2" groups at 25 yards, again from a bench, then you're wasting your time taking that rifle and ammo combo to an Appleseed. It will shoot not accurately enough and you will end up very frustrated.

There's a HUGE difference in accuracy between various .22LR brands too. Get several boxes of various loads and see which work in your rifle. I had a brick of cheapo that were printing 4" at 25 yards, when with the 30 year old target loads I had I could put 3 shots onto a dime from the same rifle.

[Bluito23]

Hi,

Just a question, are single-shot 22's allowed for these types of events?

Just curious?

Mark

[phil_in_cs]

Hi,

Just a question, are single-shot 22's allowed for these types of events?

Just curious?

Mark

Allowed, yes. Two of the stages are rapid fire, in that you start off standing and transition to sitting or prone, then fire 10 shots, all within one minute. If you can get that done you're working the rifle pretty well.

[Beanhead]

I can't believe that so many people let a little political preaching stop them from acquiring good firearms training and education, how many of you let it stop you from going to college?

[phil_in_cs]

I can't believe that so many people let a little political preaching stop them from acquiring good firearms training and education, how many of you let it stop you from going to college?

And it really was very little, at least in the one I went you. You'd hear more if there was a TV on to some news channel while you were grabbing a quick lunch out somewhere.

[OpelBlitz]

I can't believe that so many people let a little political preaching stop them from acquiring good firearms training and education, how many of you let it stop you from going to college?

And it really was very little, at least in the one I went you. You'd hear more if there was a TV on to some news channel while you were grabbing a quick lunch out somewhere.

There weren't any politics at our Appleseed. Just some history about the start of the Revolutionary War. Seriously though, who cares? If there were any politics, I'd just let it go through one ear and out the other.

[Arch]

Everyone's commenting on the politics at an Apple Seed. What are you hearing is typically discussed? I'm not trying to start a verbolten conversation....just curious because this seems to be a strong issue.

[phil_in_cs]

Everyone's commenting on the politics at an Apple Seed. What are you hearing is typically discussed? I'm not trying to start a verbolten conversation....just curious because this seems to be a strong issue.

The only thing directly discussed was 18th century stuff - the rights of the people versus the rights of the king. The only thing they suggested was people should be involved, and you should call and write to your congressman and senators. That's pretty basic stuff.

Most gun nuts are right wingers, not all of course, and some side discussions (between participants, not staff) followed from that. As I said earlier, it was less direct than at a gun show. We seem to be in an era where everything takes political meaning, even things as simple as taking care of yourself and learning to shoot.

And ZS is a sanctuary from that, thankfully.

[mr.trooper]

Good for you Phil! Run with it, and don't let people try and beat you down.

Appleseed is good legitimate training regardless of what some may say. Check out the Appleseed forum: lots of stories of people walking from the 25 yard line to the 400 yard line and doing well.