Fallout.

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Re: Fallout.

Post by 0122358 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:20 am

I thought i read on here that most of the time that vehicles affected by EMP would be opereable in an hour or so after detonation
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Re: Fallout.

Post by NorthernAlpine » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:42 pm

305Survivalist wrote: read it all, amazing... -headplosion-
@305Survivalist - LMAO, glad you got something from it!
0122358 wrote:

I thought i read on here that most of the time that vehicles affected by EMP would be opereable in an hour or so after detonation
If the vehicle works off a carb, should be OK, but the EMP basically overloads all of the circuitry and fries the shit out of it. If your car has any kind of electric fuel ignition or computer regardless of how small, your car is basically done for without an electrical over-haul.

o Think what would happen to your computer if you didn't have a surge protector and lightning hit the power line outside your house...instant crispy-ness. Now think of that on a massive scale.

If you want a good look (though it's fictional but based off of well executed research) "One Second After" is a book that was put on the reading list by the SecDef years ago when the Joint Chiefs were taking a good look at possible high-altitude EMP threats, or basically, an airborne EMP missile. No nuclear explosion, but the lights go out and we revert to the 15th century level of technology. It's a pretty good read, and goes into some pretty indepth look at a version of PAW.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by angelofwar » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:41 am

Well armed agents of justice even have EMP grenades. You anon. hacker has been loading viruses to gov. computers. You want to take him down. You plan a raid. First guys in chuck an EMP grenade in their hacker cave, killing all the PC's. Take the computers back to your guys and have them get all the info they want off the hard drives. Pretty neat stuff, really.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by Soren » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:10 am

I'll play plus dispel two things I absolutely disagree with.

1.) Simply not going outside will not necessarily protect you. In areas of significant fallout, you will be affected even on the second floor. You need mass between you and the ground/your roof. Wood, dirt, its all good. The more mass the better.
2.) Neutron radiation is actually blocked very well by water, as well as concrete or any hydrogen-rich compounds.

Truthfully, I would take my girlfriend, our cats and food for us, as well as maybe our electronics and move north. The nearest place to get nuked is Detroit or one of its suburbs, which is east of me. Therefore I am, most likely on any given day, upwind. So I'll head north to my parents house out if BFE. Everywhere West of me would be 60min+ to reach us, and in my opinion we'd be better risking the move north than trying to bug in.

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Re: Fallout.

Post by deadfeather » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:04 pm

A little information on Modern Nuclear Devices.

A standard Naval Triton Class Submarine can carry up to 16 Nuclear Missiles, they have 8 tubes for "Class D" Missiles. In one missile there can be up to 4 warheads, of up to 300kt yield. In total that's 19.2MT. Here's the kicker, they have a 5000 mile reach, and can disseminate each warhead within the higher atmosphere and land within 9 feet of where they targeted, so 4 warheads in 4 different locations. But they can launch 8 at a time. That's nothing to say of what other countries may have even though there's an armistice.

A little more information on actual "Fallout"

Depending on where you are it can take only 45 seconds for fallout to actually reach you (depending on density and wind speed), if it's raining use a non-permeable material such as tarp and throw it over yourself while covering your face (as to not breathe it in). You wouldn't believe it but MOPP suits are easy to get a hold of, and rather cheap, but be sure to have enough to change after 24 hours of exposure (optimally about 16-18 hours after first dose, but are rated to 24 hours on JSLIST models, approx. 20 hours on SARATOGA models).

A little more information on nuclear blasts

Depending on the yield, weather, and temperature of your environment, the blast radius can change, so (like the others mentioned) get behind a very strong structure (vehicles and tin shacks will NOT work). Buildings made from concrete and rebar work best, usually these are business offices. Brick buildings work great as well, and stop a lot of radioactive waves thanks to the way bricks are made (using clay).
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Re: Fallout.

Post by happlesstechnogeek » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:06 pm

WOW.
That's a lot to think about.
The big question is, How long before all the mutants attack?
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Re: Fallout.

Post by ZombieKillingGeek » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:13 pm

No one would bomb where I live. Even according to the would you survive nuclear website, I am pretty much in the clear even for the czar bomb hitting the closest 5 cities.

Lets assume they did just for shits and giggles. The over pressure would basically do nothing. I am in the mountains in a valley, so unless they hit the town of 200 people down the road in my valley, the pressure and the EMP would be blocked by the mountains (mountains are about as strong as it gets)

I live in the Rockies and my parents have a place on the other side of the continental divide, so I would grab my bug out bag and whatever equipment I could and drive up there (EMP did nothing to my car remember). I have clothes and food and stuff already there so whatever I take is icing on the cake. In fact there is an extensive library of books, so I would probably do a lot of reading when I get there. I doubt the fallout would get over the continental divide. Nuclear attack isn't really a major threat to me I suppose...

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Re: Fallout.

Post by mantis » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:52 am

Grainman wrote:Since apparently a four times increase in yield only doubles blast radius it's about 16 times more powerful.
Actually....5Mt device would yield 250 times the energy of a 20kt device. 1 Mt = 1000kt
Last edited by mantis on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by mantis » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:55 am

Soren wrote:1.) Simply not going outside will not necessarily protect you. In areas of significant fallout, you will be affected even on the second floor. You need mass between you and the ground/your roof. Wood, dirt, its all good. The more mass the better.
Being underground is your best bet - your basement would be the safest part of your house. You would have a great deal of concrete and soil between you and the radiation source - in all direction EXCEPT above you. the roof above you won't provide much protection and all you can do is pile as much mass up there as possible- appliances, etc.
Last edited by mantis on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by mantis » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:59 am

0122358 wrote:I thought i read on here that most of the time that vehicles affected by EMP would be opereable in an hour or so after detonation
Actually, it depended on whether they were running or not at the time of EMP exposure. Running vehicles stalled immediately, however, most were able to restart. Some with damage to radios, etc. Some with no damage at all. Vehicles that were not running showed no ill effects at all.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by mantis » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:04 am

angelofwar wrote:For those of us not at ground-zero, an Airburst would be the worst over-all. The EMP would cover a MUCH larger area, and fry the insides of just about anything electronic. Your modern car, your radio, computer, cell-phone...useless. Anything with a circuit board. If the threat of a nuclear war looms, go ahead an build yourself a small faraday cage (a shoe box wrapped in 1" strips of aluminum foil, space approx 1/2"-1" apart) for your senitive elcetronics. But, everything else would be dead (radio/TV stations/cell towers), so, it kind of makes sense to only protect the stuff than can be used as stand alone items (ham radio's, two way radios, etc.). As far as countries dropping nukes, Airburst is the preferred method for a reason. Powerplants, comm, vehicles = useless...makes it a lot easier on an invading army, if needed.
a significant EMP effect only occurs if you have a space based detonation. The EMP effect is created, in part, by the interaction of the radiation with the upper atmosphere. At atmospehere based air-burts would create a much less powerful pulse and only within direct line of sight. In other words, you'd have to be pretty much direction under it (and therefore screwed anyway) in order to experience a sinficiant EMP effect from such a detonation.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by alessandro » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:52 pm

Manliest wrote:Imagine, if you will, that a sizable nuclear explosion occurred the moment you clicked on this thread. Call it 7-9mi from where you're sitting RIGHT NOW. ...
For the sake of the discussion, please assume that you're forced to shelter in place, wherever you are. Let's also assume that, if not at home, you have access to your vehicle if it's within 1/4mi of your current location.

-What sort of structure are you in?
-What materials are available to you to improve your shelter?
-What tools and supplies do you have easy access to?
-What actions will you take in the next 30min to hour?
On a similar scenario I probably prefer doing nothing, since without access at some anti-nuclear facilities is pointless try to run away, so I could avoid the devastating effects of radiation.

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Re: Fallout.

Post by Apathy » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:20 pm

Cold and dead wrote:a 5 megaton blast will destroy buildings up to 10miles away, blast off clothing and skin up to 15-20 miles... you will have about 30seconds to take cover at 15-20miles. Fallout will reach 150-200miles depending on winds over a few days, the fallout will lose 99.9% potency in 24hours, that is not to say that the .1% can not kill you.

well that's what this Canadian survival stuff says anyway, not sure how old it is think its from the cold war era its all about if the US gets nuked

I think that's a bit off.

Check this out. http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

It is kinda fun to play with. Basically, if Russia dropped their 800kt bomb on my insignificant National Guard Armory (the only conceivable target near me). I would be about five miles away behind a great big hill. This app does not take terrain features into account but even then I would still be fairly safe from the over pressure. I'm inside so I would well protected from thermal radiation.

China's 5 MT bombs produce only a slightly bigger blast wave

I want to know more about the time between the blast and when fallout begins. I understand airburst bombs produce much less fallout.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by mantis » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:19 pm

Apathy wrote:I want to know more about the time between the blast and when fallout begins. I understand airburst bombs produce much less fallout.
That is correct. An air burst will produce far less fallout than a ground burst but will cause much more blast damage over a larger area - the ground absorbs much of the energy of a ground burst. Fallout patterns are largely dependent upon weather - they will blow with the wind and any precipitation such as rain or snow will bring it to the ground quicker. It is safe to say that you will be looking at the possibility of fallout within an hour or less of a nuclear detonation.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by fred.greek » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:16 pm

Actual actions would depend on the location of the explosion & the winds.

I recall a History channel show about a small nuke going off in D.C. I had thought that it discussed escape or shielding from fallout, but I just re-watched it, it only gets lightly into it starting around minute 58. Does anyone remember a video that actually described personal fallout response? I could have sworn it was a "docudrama"…

A related article discussion is at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... n-D-C.html

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Re: Fallout.

Post by jnathan » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:04 am

This thread reminded me of Irwin Redliner's TED talk on Surviving a nuclear attack



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Re: Fallout.

Post by Mikeyboy » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:18 pm

alessandro wrote:
Manliest wrote:Imagine, if you will, that a sizable nuclear explosion occurred the moment you clicked on this thread. Call it 7-9mi from where you're sitting RIGHT NOW. ...
For the sake of the discussion, please assume that you're forced to shelter in place, wherever you are. Let's also assume that, if not at home, you have access to your vehicle if it's within 1/4mi of your current location.

-What sort of structure are you in?
-What materials are available to you to improve your shelter?
-What tools and supplies do you have easy access to?
-What actions will you take in the next 30min to hour?
On a similar scenario I probably prefer doing nothing, since without access at some anti-nuclear facilities is pointless try to run away, so I could avoid the devastating effects of radiation.
Doing nothing would be worse then trying to run. In theory if you get to your vehicle quick, and haul ass going downwind, even in moderate traffic you could outpace the fallout to get to a better shelter location. Even better you can move perpendicular from ground zero if you are down wind, meaning ground zero is north and winds are south, go east or west. Either way you would be in an area where the threat of fallout will be almost non existent.

http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_weapons_a ... IIExXl0yM8

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Re: Fallout.

Post by alessandro » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:50 pm

Mikeyboy wrote:Doing nothing would be worse then trying to run. In theory if you get to your vehicle quick, and haul ass going downwind, even in moderate traffic you could outpace the fallout to get to a better shelter location. Even better you can move perpendicular from ground zero if you are down wind, meaning ground zero is north and winds are south, go east or west. Either way you would be in an area where the threat of fallout will be almost non existent.
Given that most would have the same idea and that the roads are narrow, it would block within a few minutes, for that reason I think this would be completely useless.
Also during a panic situation is more difficult put attention where the wind blows, and inside a city according to the height of the buildings and from angle of roads isn't always immediately understand the prevailing direction of the wind.

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Re: Fallout.

Post by Neptune Glory » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:15 pm

Manliest wrote:Imagine, if you will, that a sizable nuclear explosion occurred the moment you clicked on this thread. Call it 7-9mi from where you're sitting RIGHT NOW. Your real plan of action will vary, of course, with the options of bugging out to a better location or to shelter in place, and many variations thereof.
For the sake of the discussion, please assume that you're forced to shelter in place, wherever you are. Let's also assume that, if not at home, you have access to your vehicle if it's within 1/4mi of your current location.

-What sort of structure are you in?
-What materials are available to you to improve your shelter?
-What tools and supplies do you have easy access to?
-What actions will you take in the next 30min to hour?

Feel free to respond in any form you like. I appreciate your responses, because I'm starting this thread as much to make others think as to steal your ideas for myself. 8)
In a hospital. Would probably don protective equipment and prepare to receive / decontaminate casualties.

Nuclear fallout, if I'm not mistaken, exists as both alpha particles and beta particles. An alpha particle is a Helium atom (2 protons and 2 neutrons) but no electrons. A beta particle is a free electron lacking any sort of nucleus.

My personal protective gear at the hospital, if those are the things I'm dealing with, is more than adequate to protect against those two types of nuclear fallout. My biggest concern would be contacting my family and advising them to hot foot it away to Grandpa's house, and to wait for me there. It could be several days to two weeks until I could leave my post.

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Re: Fallout.

Post by mantis » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:09 pm

Fallout also contains Gamma particles which are the most dangerous. Alpha and Beta particles are very low energy and require very little shielding. Clothing, a piece of paper, human skin can block them. Gamma particles on the other hand are like x-rays and can easily penetrate most materials and the human body. There is no soft shielding available for Gamma rays it would be far too heavy.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by Neptune Glory » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:22 pm

mantis wrote:Fallout also contains Gamma particles which are the most dangerous. Alpha and Beta particles are very low energy and require very little shielding. Clothing, a piece of paper, human skin can block them. Gamma particles on the other hand are like x-rays and can easily penetrate most materials and the human body. There is no soft shielding available for Gamma rays it would be far too heavy.
The way I learned it, Gamma rays are electromagnetic radiation, similar to light and to x-rays. Once the initial blast is over, the Gamma rays have been spent, kind of like the EMP that comes with a nuclear explosion. There aren't any leftover "Gamma particles".

That's why I don't worry about them... either they hit me at the speed of light or they didn't, and if I'm inside of a giant hospital building away from the windows? They probably didn't.

-Neptune
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Re: Fallout.

Post by DarkAxel » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:32 pm

Neptune Glory wrote:
mantis wrote:Fallout also contains Gamma particles which are the most dangerous. Alpha and Beta particles are very low energy and require very little shielding. Clothing, a piece of paper, human skin can block them. Gamma particles on the other hand are like x-rays and can easily penetrate most materials and the human body. There is no soft shielding available for Gamma rays it would be far too heavy.
The way I learned it, Gamma rays are electromagnetic radiation, similar to light and to x-rays. Once the initial blast is over, the Gamma rays have been spent, kind of like the EMP that comes with a nuclear explosion. There aren't any leftover "Gamma particles".

That's why I don't worry about them... either they hit me at the speed of light or they didn't, and if I'm inside of a giant hospital building away from the windows? They probably didn't.

-Neptune
Gamma rays are also produced by fallout. Neutron activation can turn anything radioactive, like the dirt in the blast zone (which is a large part of fallout), and when that begins to decay it can produce hard gammas for as little as a few seconds up to several years.
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Re: Fallout.

Post by RadFoxUK » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:40 pm

If not said before, follow Jericho (TV)'s way and find the nearest government building with a late 1940's to mid 90's construction date as it is likely to have ample supplies and space in an also likely bunker.
(nearest large city is 17+ miles away, capitol of Wales - Cardiff, I would have quite a bit of time 1H+. it takes a bit for fallout to dispurse counting on weather movement and rainfall/snowfall)
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Re: Fallout.

Post by RadFoxUK » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:48 pm

DarkAxel wrote: Gamma rays are also produced by fallout. Neutron activation can turn anything radioactive, like the dirt in the blast zone (which is a large part of fallout), and when that begins to decay it can produce hard gammas for as little as a few seconds up to several years.
It's not just dirt fallout is all the atomised objects in the blast radius, including but not limited to , people, animals, buildings, poisounus materials and chemicals, sewage, water (salt and/or fresh), and many more! also it's all irradiated. it'll likely contain gamma, beta and alpha, ingesting gamma is not as halmful as ingesting beta or alpha as gamma passes through the body but alpha and beta does not so they would ionise your vital organs to a much greater extent, which causes tumor and cancerous growths to be created, Ionisation of your bodies cells causes them to become unrecognisable to your body, causing your body the treat them as foriegn bodies (an infection), and attack you own cells via the immune system ultimately causing your body to slowly over time kill itself.

Please be aware that marshall law and conscription may occur during the immediate aftershock of cultural, militaristic, political and economic effects of a nuclear attack.

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