10 Rules for Dealing with Police

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10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by CryHavoc » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:32 pm

10 Rules for Dealing with Police. From the Huffington Post. Scroll down to the slideshow with all 10 rules. These are especially important for people legally transporting Firearms.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/neill-fra ... ml#s182278" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mods, I'm not sure if this is the right forum or not...
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by TacAir » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:12 pm

Dunno about the HuffPost

But I do think Chris Rock had some good points.... (Language warning - like you need it for Chris Rock)
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by the_alias » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:23 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; part 2
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by BigDaddyTX » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:06 pm

the_alias wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; part 2
I love that video, and I make people watch it who don't know any better. It's worth the 40 minutes of your life it takes.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by Jeriah » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:20 pm

Note on Rule #9: In Chicago of all places, it is now UNLAWFUL to record a police officer. Which of course is 100% to prevent gang members from taking surveillance videos of cops so they can later target them for assassinations, and not at all because there are a lot of corrupt cops who in Chicago who don't want to be videotaped breaking the law. Because. That. Never. Happens. In. Chicago.

So, the picture in the article shows a person filming/photographing what is presumably an officer who is may be guilty of some kind of misconduct, but in Chicago, it would be lawful for that officer to arrest the guy with the camera and confiscate the camera as "evidence."

Not saying all cops are bad, or trying to engender and kind of hate towards cops in general, but just noting here that a.) police corruption is real, and that b.) in Chicago the law is on the side of corrupt/brutal/law-breaking cops, in that you are not allowed to film them breaking the law.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by CryHavoc » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:39 pm

Jeriah wrote:So, the picture in the article shows a person filming/photographing what is presumably an officer who is may be guilty of some kind of misconduct, but in Chicago, it would be lawful for that officer to arrest the guy with the camera and confiscate the camera as "evidence."

Not saying all cops are bad, or trying to engender and kind of hate towards cops in general, but just noting here that a.) police corruption is real, and that b.) in Chicago the law is on the side of corrupt/brutal/law-breaking cops, in that you are not allowed to film them breaking the law.
I'm going to have to look that up. I believe the law says something along the lines of that you can't film them in the 'proper' line of duty. If they are breaking the law, they aren't acting in the line of duty any longer. Of course, a corrupt cop wouldn't see it that way.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by allofthemonkeys » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:36 pm

When I first saw this, I thought about Chris Rock too. And it was a cop who showed it to me.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by CryHavoc » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:44 am

(Mods, please let me know if this is delving into Politics. I don't think it is, but if it is, let me know, and I'll delete the post.)

I've thought about this, and I have to say, I think these laws against videotaping Police can be a 1st Amendment violation, and possibly a Deprivation of Rights issue.

Somebody tell me if I've got this wrong:

1.) The 1st Amendment says that U.S. Citizens have the right to 'Petition for the Redress of any Grievances' they have with the government.
2.) Usually, to have that Petition be effective, you have to provide evidence of the grievance.
3.) If a Police Officer confiscates and destroys that evidence, is it a violation of the 1st Amendment?
4.) If that Officer then arrests the person who was videotaping, is it a false arrest and punishable under the FBI's jurisdiction of Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law?
Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242
Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law
This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.
If so, the Officer in question can go to jail for up to a year under Section 242.

I believe there needs to be an answer to this. Especially since some of the States make it a felony conviction to record a Police Officer and that could remove someone's Firearm privileges.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by man in black » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:02 am

these all seem common sense. i mean, was i the only one after reading each of the rules that said in their heads "well, no shit sherlock?"
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by NTS » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:15 pm

man in black wrote:these all seem common sense. i mean, was i the only one after reading each of the rules that said in their heads "well, no shit sherlock?"
I think you would be surprised how many people really don't know how to talk to cops. It's kind of upsetting.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by crypto » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:10 pm

CryHavoc wrote: I'm going to have to look that up. I believe the law says something along the lines of that you can't film them in the 'proper' line of duty. If they are breaking the law, they aren't acting in the line of duty any longer. Of course, a corrupt cop wouldn't see it that way.
There's nothing to look up, Illinois is also a two-party consent-to-monitor state, so you cannot record someone without their permission. The fact that in the recent past this has extended into the public space (here there is no reasonable expectation of privacy) is sheer lunacy, and an absurd selective application of the law, since it makes 100% of closed-circuit recorders illegal if they happen to peer out of a door or in an alley.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by ei8htx » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:20 pm

I agree with everything except the "don't run". Body armor, boots, and a fully stocked web belt make you kinda slow.

Of course if you're drunk or fat, maybe not....

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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by jnathan » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:21 pm

Illinois is a two-party state. Originally established in the Criminal Code of 1961. Amended in 1994 with law added that a "conversation" means any oral communication involving at least two persons, regardless of whether one or more of them intended for their communication to be private. Thus an expectation of privacy need not excist for this two-party requirement to be violated.

And, until legal challenges to this law are settled, you don't want to record police in Illinois:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010 ... ivity-aclu

You also don't want to do this in either Maryland:
(Background)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05556.html

(Followup)
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-0 ... ell-phones

or Pennsylvania:

http://www.publiusfoundation.com/2010/0 ... rd-police/

Even though there have been cases decided in favor of those who were charged with unlawful recording, their lives were severely inconvenienced by having to defend themselves in court.

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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by CryHavoc » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:55 pm

crypto wrote:There's nothing to look up, Illinois is also a two-party consent-to-monitor state, so you cannot record someone without their permission.
jnathan wrote:Illinois is a two-party state. Originally established in the Criminal Code of 1961. Amended in 1994 with law added that a "conversation" means any oral communication involving at least two persons, regardless of whether one or more of them intended for their communication to be private. Thus an expectation of privacy need not exist for this two-party requirement to be violated.
That is good to know.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by Frank » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:09 pm

ei8htx wrote:I agree with everything except the "don't run". Body armor, boots, and a fully stocked web belt make you kinda slow.

Of course if you're drunk or fat, maybe not....
bullets can run pretty fast.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by ei8htx » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:14 pm

Poseidon wrote:
ei8htx wrote:I agree with everything except the "don't run". Body armor, boots, and a fully stocked web belt make you kinda slow.

Of course if you're drunk or fat, maybe not....
bullets can run pretty fast.
lol, true. To clear myself up: I do not advocate running from the cops when you are the main subject/suspect, and even more so when they draw on you (Portland PD is always shooting people in the back). I only meant when the cops are coming in like if you were at a party getting out of hand, get the fuck out fast. Just generally, when the cops are coming, get away before they start rounding people up.

When the LEOs start coming around after a disaster and are seizing firearms to "restore order and safety", get the fuck out fast.

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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by johndoe » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:59 am

As a former prosecutor and having done a bit of federal civil rights litigation, my gut instinct is that eventually, some court somewhere is going to declare these anti-filming laws unconstitutional. And eventually, it will make its way up to the Supreme Court. I don't want to turn it into a political thread, so please take this as an objective observation and not an argument or attempt to condemn any one justice or political group.

That said, the current justices are John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Samuel Alito, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan. I'm most familiar with Scalia, Thomas, Ginsburg, and Breyer as they were on the court when I was in law school and thus reading their opinions religiously. Now I'm more of a casual follower of the court but I do have gut impressions of the justices appointed since I left law school.

My feeling, though, is if a case challenging these laws came before the Court we can confidently expect Ginsburg, Kennedy, Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan to vote down such laws as unconstitutional under either First Amendment or some sort of substantive due process reasoning.

Going against it, I feel confident that Scalia will vote in favor of such laws. The right has held him up as a constitutional defender, and to some extent he is...except when it comes to "law and order" issues. I've read a LOT of Scalia opinions and he has an amazing command of logic and the law, and usually a consistent argument in favor of a textual reading of the Constitution. But when police or the military is involved, he can contort the hell out of all logic and facts in order to side with the government. It's just how he is.

Alito and Roberts I'm not as well versed in, but the opinions I have read of theirs hasn't impressed me. They don't seem to have any consistent intellectual bent so much as they're conservatives and seem willing to use whatever legal theory or doctrine to advance their conservative views...even if that theory is really no theory at all. Again, this isn't really meant as a criticism of their politics-the same criticism could easily be leveled at Kennedy and Breyer, but on the other end of the spectrum.

The last judge (unless I missed someone--it's really late) is Thomas. Thomas, of all the judges on the court, has impressed me the most as someone willing to set aside his own conservative bent and follow the Constitution more closely, though every now and then he seems to stray. My feeling is he would side with the liberal wing of the court, but I'm not completely confident in this. I'd say 70% chance he votes down such laws, but it's just a wild ass guess.

So looking at that my feeling is the Court would strike down such laws 5 to 4, or maybe even 6 to 3. That said, if Thomas jumped ship and sided with Scalia, as he often does, the victory isn't as certain. The thing with Kennedy especially is that every now and then he does something really weird and out of character. Who knows what would happen if that were the case.

So overall, and this is just a really hasty analysis, I think this issue is going to really divide the court, but that ultimately filming laws are going to be struck down.



Now personally, I'm biased, but I'm just shocked as hell that any politician can look himself in the mirror after voting for these laws. To me, and it's just my opinion, they're so clearly unconstitutional that there isn't any room for debate. But that's just my opinion.

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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by muscleman_coffeemesto » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:41 am

This article reminds me of an article I read here at home. It was written by a guy whose next door neighbor was a drug dealer. He called the cops all the time but nothing ever happened until one day he noticed 8 cops standing outside the dealers house knocking on the door. The dealer never opened the door... The cops obviously didn't have a search warrant, so they actually gave up and left. After he saw that, he never bothered calling the cops on that guy ever again.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by jnathan » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:27 pm

johndoe wrote:As a former prosecutor and having done a bit of federal civil rights litigation, my gut instinct is that eventually, some court somewhere is going to declare these anti-filming laws unconstitutional. And eventually, it will make its way up to the Supreme Court. I don't want to turn it into a political thread, so please take this as an objective observation and not an argument or attempt to condemn any one justice or political group.

[...]

Now personally, I'm biased, but I'm just shocked as hell that any politician can look himself in the mirror after voting for these laws. To me, and it's just my opinion, they're so clearly unconstitutional that there isn't any room for debate. But that's just my opinion.
I thought that Federal Law already establishes that there's no reasonable expectation of privacy in public and therefore any obvious,non surreptitious recording is legal. As you've said I suspect that this will ultimately be decided by higher courts or the State laws in question modified.

Wiretap laws written so as to require two-party consent and without any implied consent provision would also likely make surveillance cameras outside any business as well as red light cameras illegal under the interpretation by the Illinois, Maryland and Pennsylvania prosecutors. In Illinois there is a house bill (not yet assigned to committee) that would return Illinois to a one-party wiretap consent state.

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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by Jeriah » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:32 pm

IANAL (which sounds like an Aasimov parody porno) but as far as I understand it, state and local goverments can outlaw things that are legal at the federal level, unless there is a specific constitutional interpretation/ruling/etc prohibiting it. So in other words, even though its been ruled that we can record people in public, a state or city can make a law making that illegal, particularly in regards to cops, until or unless the Supreme Court specifically rules that such a law is unconstitutional. So we're fucked until someone wants to play guinea pig and gets it that far.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by KYZHunters » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:50 pm

Jeriah wrote:IANAL (which sounds like an Aasimov parody porno) but as far as I understand it, state and local goverments can outlaw things that are legal at the federal level, unless there is a specific constitutional interpretation/ruling/etc prohibiting it. So in other words, even though its been ruled that we can record people in public, a state or city can make a law making that illegal, particularly in regards to cops, until or unless the Supreme Court specifically rules that such a law is unconstitutional. So we're fucked until someone wants to play guinea pig and gets it that far.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by Spookadelic » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:20 pm

Jeriah wrote:Note on Rule #9: In Chicago of all places, it is now UNLAWFUL to record a police officer. Which of course is 100% to prevent gang members from taking surveillance videos of cops so they can later target them for assassinations, and not at all because there are a lot of corrupt cops who in Chicago who don't want to be videotaped breaking the law. Because. That. Never. Happens. In. Chicago.

So, the picture in the article shows a person filming/photographing what is presumably an officer who is may be guilty of some kind of misconduct, but in Chicago, it would be lawful for that officer to arrest the guy with the camera and confiscate the camera as "evidence."

Not saying all cops are bad, or trying to engender and kind of hate towards cops in general, but just noting here that a.) police corruption is real, and that b.) in Chicago the law is on the side of corrupt/brutal/law-breaking cops, in that you are not allowed to film them breaking the law.
Illinois is one of the states that requires both parties to be informed that a telephone call is being recorded.
Illinois is one of the few states where concealed carry is not allow.
Illinois doesn't have voter recall of governors.
etc.
Makes you wonder who Illinois is protecting....

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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by Jeriah » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:32 pm

Spookadelic wrote:
Jeriah wrote:Note on Rule #9: In Chicago of all places, it is now UNLAWFUL to record a police officer. Which of course is 100% to prevent gang members from taking surveillance videos of cops so they can later target them for assassinations, and not at all because there are a lot of corrupt cops who in Chicago who don't want to be videotaped breaking the law. Because. That. Never. Happens. In. Chicago.

So, the picture in the article shows a person filming/photographing what is presumably an officer who is may be guilty of some kind of misconduct, but in Chicago, it would be lawful for that officer to arrest the guy with the camera and confiscate the camera as "evidence."

Not saying all cops are bad, or trying to engender and kind of hate towards cops in general, but just noting here that a.) police corruption is real, and that b.) in Chicago the law is on the side of corrupt/brutal/law-breaking cops, in that you are not allowed to film them breaking the law.
Illinois is one of the states that requires both parties to be informed that a telephone call is being recorded.
Illinois is one of the few states where concealed carry is not allow.
Illinois doesn't have voter recall of governors.
etc.
Makes you wonder who Illinois is protecting....
Yup. Unfortunately that wondering leads to a political discussion, which we're not allowed to do on ZS.
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Re: 10 Rules for Dealing with Police

Post by Spookadelic » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:54 pm

Yup. Unfortunately that wondering leads to a political discussion, which we're not allowed to do on ZS.
Yup. The no politics rule is the biggest reason that I think this is the coolest zombie/prepping forum in the world. I plan to help keep it that way. Thanks for the critique.

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