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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:07 pm
by Doctorr Fabulous
Approaching from the "preparedness/zombie" angle, has anyone factored in "real world" risk of injury against the different fighting "systems" out there?

For instance, how and what does Krav focus on striking, and with what? OR rather, what are the focuses of attack? Fist to the face? Soft tissue? Pain-compliance?

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:03 am
by Murphman
Tommy, check your PM's.

Doc, I took KM, that was oriented as a KM self defense class, for 6 months, then switched to other disciplines. The focus was to aggressively end a confrontation any way possible, including using whatever was available in your environment, to end the confrontation. If you only had your fists, then it was considered a negative encounter, initially, as the teaching was to always attempt to create a weapon if you had none, but that you should have your own, always within the law, of course. Any encounter you walked away from was a positive encounter. Again, the focus was to end the encounter with as little damage to yourself and as much to your opponent(s) as you could to safely escape. Since it was self-defense oriented, there was also the typical talks of not putting yourself into the position that created the encounter in the first place.

I stopped going to KM because the class did not seem to develop into more, and became redundant. Talking to multiple friends, who are much more versed in martial arts than I am, one said I had a bad teacher, one said KM is shit and I should take muay thai and BJJ. I started taking muay thai and BJJ, lol, and love both, but honestly, I am still a 40+ year old guy that wants nothing to do with fist fight these days. I use MA to stay in shape, and know how to defend myself if the worst case scenario happens, not to prove I am the toughest guy on the street. I know I could devote more time to both, but life is a fun ride, I am here to enjoy it.

Edited to add: I think if one wanted to prepare for a zombie pockyclipse, they should take up a sword discipline, but finding a good instructor can be very difficult form what I understand.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:09 am
by Doctorr Fabulous
Murphman wrote:Tommy, check your PM's.

Doc, I took KM, that was oriented as a KM self defense class, for 6 months, then switched to other disciplines. The focus was to aggressively end a confrontation any way possible, including using whatever was available in your environment, to end the confrontation. If you only had your fists, then it was considered a negative encounter, initially, as the teaching was to always attempt to create a weapon if you had none, but that you should have your own, always within the law, of course. Any encounter you walked away from was a positive encounter. Again, the focus was to end the encounter with as little damage to yourself and as much to your opponent(s) as you could to safely escape. Since it was self-defense oriented, there was also the typical talks of not putting yourself into the position that created the encounter in the first place.
I see. I'm just thinking that throatpunches and monkey-plucks-fuzzy-peaches-with-fists-of-iron techniques might not be as effective on the undead as a hefty boot-to-the-chest, or a hip-throw. It's difficult to punch through a skull, though if Krav teaches that I'll reconsider the hype.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:43 am
by Mikeyboy
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Approaching from the "preparedness/zombie" angle, has anyone factored in "real world" risk of injury against the different fighting "systems" out there?

For instance, how and what does Krav focus on striking, and with what? OR rather, what are the focuses of attack? Fist to the face? Soft tissue? Pain-compliance?
You got a point there. Rapid punches to the face may work against humans, but doing that to a zombie and you get one quick nip on your knuckle and you are screwed. Same with locks, pressure points, pain compliance and most throws. How are you suppose to put a zombie in an arm bar or a wrist lock when their arm and hand is rotting flesh. They don't feel pain so there will be no compliance.

Some Judo & wrestling throws will be great against zombies, but others where you pull your body in tight to your opponent, where you are wrapping your arm around their neck, or where any other part of your body comes in close contact with the zombies mouth is risking you getting bit and infected.

Step #2 &3 of this Sweeping hip throw, could get you a love bite on your scalp, ear, or neck

Image

If a ZPAW happened I think it will be a learning curve. The funny thing is I can't tell you how many times I have taken a traditional martial arts class, where an instructor says "if someone grabs you with both hands like this" and thinking that would never happen in a street fight. However that will be a typical zombie grab. You may finally use that double wrist grab escape that you learn when you were a kid in that karate class at the local strip mall.

In the end if you are unarmed in a ZPAW I think it will come down to grab escapes, leg sweeps, shoves, some cheap throws where you don't need to get close to the zombies mouth, front kicks in the sternum, bobbing, weaving and running.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:21 pm
by Tommy Tinker
Murphman wrote:I think if one wanted to prepare for a zombie pockyclipse, they should take up a sword discipline, but finding a good instructor can be very difficult form what I understand.
I think between fencing, kendo, escrima/kali, and maybe even kung fu, most folks should be able to find some sort of decent sword/blade instruction in their area. That's a broad array of styles, and you may not find your first choice, but any of them would be applicable for ZPAW preparedness.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:05 pm
by zero11010
For the undead, based on what I have seen in movies and TV, the things you need to be concerned with are:
* Situational awareness - Any style that focuses on multiple attackers will excel. Most styles cover it to some degree, very few actually focus on it (this, however, can be from instruction as much as the art). This puts an edge on modern styles like krav maga or kajukenbo, and this puts grapple focused styles at a disadvantage.
* Very basic grapple attempts - Any women's self defense class or beyond would cover this aspect just fine. Soon as we see zombies using triangle locks I may reconsider this.
* Controlling the head/face - Every martial art I've ever studied has techniques for this. Something as simple as applying pressure on the forehead taking advantage of the lack of strength in the neck to pivot the head back and away is a good start. I would shy away from nose control (which is taught in pretty much every style) because it's a little too close to the mouth.
* Something that focuses on real world application would be ideal - Most of these styles favor techniques other than the typical fist to the face (punching a person in the face is likely to split your skin open). Something that promotes open palm strikes or hammer fists would help with muscle memory. These things tend to be more common in more modern styles, but again, this can have as much to do with the instructor as the style (the more an instructor has actually punched a person in the face the more they'll be aware that doing it sucks).


No system was created specifically for the undead. So, no system will be perfect for the topic (kendo sure sounds like a winner though). Every system that has flourished isn't wholly terrible, and bits and pieces from that system would be perfectly applicable. Though, I would take most systems over something like strict wrestling (it doesn't have enough of a focus on strikes).

If you're specifically looking for a system that has a really heavy focus on knives, then you want to study something like Kali. In your instruction you will learn the differences, but there are subtle but critical technique differentiations between actions performed with a blunt vs a sharp weapon. This means not everything you learn about practical fighting with blunt weapons will be expressly applicable to practical fighting with bladed weapons. You also won't want to focus too heavily on weapons that are fantastic against people, but terrible against zombies, like the karambit.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:52 pm
by drop bear
zero11010 wrote:For the undead, based on what I have seen in movies and TV, the things you need to be concerned with are:
* Situational awareness - Any style that focuses on multiple attackers will excel. Most styles cover it to some degree, very few actually focus on it (this, however, can be from instruction as much as the art). This puts an edge on modern styles like krav maga or kajukenbo, and this puts grapple focused styles at a disadvantage.
* Very basic grapple attempts - Any women's self defense class or beyond would cover this aspect just fine. Soon as we see zombies using triangle locks I may reconsider this.
* Controlling the head/face - Every martial art I've ever studied has techniques for this. Something as simple as applying pressure on the forehead taking advantage of the lack of strength in the neck to pivot the head back and away is a good start. I would shy away from nose control (which is taught in pretty much every style) because it's a little too close to the mouth.
* Something that focuses on real world application would be ideal - Most of these styles favor techniques other than the typical fist to the face (punching a person in the face is likely to split your skin open). Something that promotes open palm strikes or hammer fists would help with muscle memory. These things tend to be more common in more modern styles, but again, this can have as much to do with the instructor as the style (the more an instructor has actually punched a person in the face the more they'll be aware that doing it sucks).


No system was created specifically for the undead. So, no system will be perfect for the topic (kendo sure sounds like a winner though). Every system that has flourished isn't wholly terrible, and bits and pieces from that system would be perfectly applicable. Though, I would take most systems over something like strict wrestling (it doesn't have enough of a focus on strikes).

If you're specifically looking for a system that has a really heavy focus on knives, then you want to study something like Kali. In your instruction you will learn the differences, but there are subtle but critical technique differentiations between actions performed with a blunt vs a sharp weapon. This means not everything you learn about practical fighting with blunt weapons will be expressly applicable to practical fighting with bladed weapons. You also won't want to focus too heavily on weapons that are fantastic against people, but terrible against zombies, like the karambit.

I don't know about the knife. I think you would be better off chopping some wood than learning clever counters. Stamina and accuracy over counters in this instance.


Otherwise wrestle. Not so much the throws bit just the head controls.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys9tmw3TIEU

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uxo7Y_9LqSM

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:25 pm
by Tommy Tinker
zero11010 wrote:Any style that focuses on multiple attackers will excel. Most styles cover it to some degree, very few actually focus on it
In a real fight where you have to take on multiple attackers, you either need to be a significantly better fighter than each and every one of them (however many there are), or they need to be not very motivated. If you're dealing with humans, you're more likely to achieve the latter than the former. Actually fighting off all of them is almost never going to happen. For the undead, it's the other way around. They're not going to be able to fight worth a damn, but there is no changing their minds, obviously. Keep this in mind as you train.
zero11010 wrote:If you're specifically looking for a system that has a really heavy focus on knives, then you want to study something like Kali.
Most of what you learn in Kali is applicable to knives, machetes, steel pipes, and Louisville Sluggers with nails through the head.
zero11010 wrote:You also won't want to focus too heavily on weapons that are fantastic against people, but terrible against zombies, like the karambit.
This is a good point. Something else to consider is the need to keep biters at a distance. Learning to use a bo staff would probably be fun. You could attach something pointy to the ends of it for zombies.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:01 pm
by zero11010
Tommy Tinker wrote:
zero11010 wrote:Any style that focuses on multiple attackers will excel. Most styles cover it to some degree, very few actually focus on it
In a real fight where you have to take on multiple attackers, you either need to be a significantly better fighter than each and every one of them (however many there are), or they need to be not very motivated. If you're dealing with humans, you're more likely to achieve the latter than the former. Actually fighting off all of them is almost never going to happen. For the undead, it's the other way around. They're not going to be able to fight worth a damn, but there is no changing their minds, obviously. Keep this in mind as you train.
1) you're side tracking the conversation again. We're talking about martial art usage with zombies, so talking about real fights only dilutes the conversation.

2) when it comes to zombies you're basically agreeing with me. so, thanks.

As far as street fights with multiple attackers go, it isn't as hard as you think. Most people don't know how to fight. Most people who do know how to fight aren't very good at it. When it comes to a group you want to deal with (harm/intimidate) the most aggressive attacker and the rest start to get morale issues. This stuff isn't as uncommon as you seem to think it is, and it isn't as hopeless as you seem to think it is. I've been in these situations on more than one occasion, and a buddy of mine who just got back from vacation out of the country just had to deal with it with a little gang who wanted to rob the tourists.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:58 pm
by MasterMaker
Murphman, having trained with someone that used to be the highest ranking Krav Maga practitioner/instructor in Europe I would say that it was definitively a bad instructor, someone that has gotten into a rut and set in his ways by doing way to many introductory/self defense classes to absolute beginners.

Having said that, as far as redirecting and controlling the movements of multiple opponents/zombies I would take a long hard look at aikido and systema, once one gets a hang of that way of moving and reacting it also has the potential to create some rather comical situations of leading people/zombies into banging into each other, walls, tripping over each other and with practice it has a tendency to become close to effortless and very relaxed.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:39 am
by AfleetAlex
Krav Maga? Lol.

Someones been watching a lot of Archer...

However, some training is always better than no training.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:35 am
by procyon
zero11010 wrote:As far as street fights with multiple attackers go, it isn't as hard as you think.
Really???
Going nose to nose with anyone, one to one, is never a sure thing. And it is (almost) never easy in RL, unless you are jumping/ambushing someone.
zero11010 wrote:I've been in these situations on more than one occasion
Ummm...
Unless you are an undercover officer with really crappy luck, you should be looking at your 'life choices'...


And when you are being so amazing that you are scaring a bunch of folks who aren't there to be friendly - remember that if you look really scary taking out one guy, that one of the others might just be scared enough to pull his little .32ACP and drop a half dozen chunks of metal into you...

Martial arts vs zombies...
What you would want to know, to me, would be the skill to use a weapon well. A good weapon. Not your hands.
Learn what the samurai knew. They didn't use the katana because it was 'magical'.
They used it because it was the best weapon they had.

Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:18 am
by itzybitzyspyder
As corny as it sounds some of the LARP groups like SCA, Belegarth and Dragonhir have guys that are used to working together as a team using melee weapons. Assuming they will have or create real versions of their weapons they would stand a great chance of stomping the shit out of zeds.