Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

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Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by ZomwellStudios » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:59 pm

The actual event has already passed, but the concepts are invaluable!

"In this three hour seminar, we will prepare for the Zombie Apocalypse. First, we will address Rule #1: Cardio, followed by techniques to deal with multiple attackers, including what to do when you’re standing up or on the ground. We will also review the importance of Rule #22: When in doubt, know your way out. In any apocalypse, you must be be prepared to use common objects, as well as prepare for the clever zombies who can still use weapons.

Zombies are encouraged to attend this seminar, and will be given a free t-shirt for their service"

http://www.kravmagainstitute.com/events ... s-seminar/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by strm_trpr » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:22 pm

I did Krav for a while, until it started to override my training used for work (PPCT) so I had to quit, It was an awesome workout and a great fighting system.
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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Murphman » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:08 pm

I think Krav has its place for a beginner, but once past the "beat the shit out of anything and everything until you can't move" phase, it got stagnant. Took me 6 months to get to that point, though, and I had fun. I have heard that is typical from some, and others have told me I was at a bad gym. YMMV.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai have both done much more than Krav for me as far as understanding fighting and developing good footwork and technique. Again, YMMV.
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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by feedthedog » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:25 pm

Murphman wrote:I think Krav has its place for a beginner, but once past the "beat the shit out of anything and everything until you can't move" phase, it got stagnant. Took me 6 months to get to that point, though, and I had fun. I have heard that is typical from some, and others have told me I was at a bad gym. YMMV.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai have both done much more than Krav for me as far as understanding fighting and developing good footwork and technique. Again, YMMV.
I've found that it gets more interesting as you start to progress in it. I'll agree, the intro level is pretty dull though.

I went from Krav to Muay Thai / BJJ and then back to Krav. So you may still come back to it at some point. :lol: I got bored with the hand to hand and wanted to add weapons into it. Krav is hard to beat for the diversity of the weapons training.

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Doryman » Fri May 02, 2014 10:43 am

Murphman wrote:I think Krav has its place for a beginner, but once past the "beat the shit out of anything and everything until you can't move" phase, it got stagnant. Took me 6 months to get to that point, though, and I had fun. I have heard that is typical from some, and others have told me I was at a bad gym. YMMV.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai have both done much more than Krav for me as far as understanding fighting and developing good footwork and technique. Again, YMMV.

I haven't been impressed with Krav. It's good up to a point, but the lack of non-compliant sparring advance means that one doesn't really get beyond simple drills. You get muscle-memory down, but pressure-testing and your "fight IQ" is pretty neglected. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to go from 0 to somewhat competent, but not really any further.

Also, Krav seems to attract a lot of people who are divorced from reality. Walter Mitty gun-shop commando-types and Soccer moms who are convinced they'd destroy Brock Lesnar with their Krav deadlyz.


Now, this is all personal experience, and it's based more on individual school "culture" then the KM style itself (which I think is more or less sound). I'm willing to admit that there are good, hard-sparring, serious Krav schools out there. I've just experienced a lot that leave a bad taste in my mouth.
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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Apathy » Fri May 02, 2014 5:32 pm

Just going by the film Tokyo zombie, hand to hand combat tends to land you In a heap of hilarious trouble.
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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by MasterMaker » Sun May 04, 2014 1:24 pm

While I hate the ritualistic part of it(doing shit because you are "supposed to", senseless tradition) as far as evading panicking people/zombies(take your pick) the softer arts such as Aikido are far more useful.

I did Judo for quite a few years but while we had a former brit national military champion and olympian competitor as an instructor that was well skilled at doing a lot of the understanding behind techniques and why they work(redirecting movement, making your opponents inertia work for you etc.) was pretty much left completely out, it was basically "this is the technique/this is how you do it" with some pointers on how to improve(move your hip deeper in etc.).

The same techniques that I had learned to do more with force and speed than anything else all of a sudden became effortless after I quit judo and moved on to other things/learned from other sources that allowed me to get a feel for why some things worked and why others didn't.

A good practitioner and a good instructor are two entirely different things, a good instructor makes you understand what you are doing, a poor one just tells you what/how to do it.

If one is to run with the whole zombie apocalypse theme I would say that a soft and evasion based art(from a good instructor/supplemented with some Aikido text books) as a basis for movement and some harder techniques mixed in for finality would be the best bet.

There is also a lot to be said for finding a techniques that fits ones temperament and physiology(a fast,sinewy and small practitioner would struggle with making something useable and practical out of techniques that would be ideal for someone massive and strong, someone big and strong would work twice as hard to get half as proficient at techniques that someone Bruce Lee like would excel at, and so on).
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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Tommy Tinker » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:34 am

Krav will teach you to be aggressive, to be intense, and a few basic techniques. Ferocity and perseverance are crucial in a defensive situation, but those things alone will only take you so far. It seems many Krav classes focus too much time on unlikely scenarios and cardio, and not enough on good technique and sparring. If you've never been in a fight, you might be surprised how quickly all those hours of training fall apart the first time someone is trying to punch you in the face as you attempt those techniques.
If you have more than a few months to train, you'll probably be better off taking MMA, Judo, JKD, Eskrima/Kali, or Muay Thai classes.

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:38 am

I was never wild about Krav, don't know why. I think it just seemed so uncontrolled and almost... egotistical?? I just felt like it was a lot of "punch him in the nuts" and "let's do this move for the sake of being extreme even thouh there are better ways of doing it".... it was like CrossFit of the martial arts world.

But of course, I was a decent high school wrestler and a mediocre college wrestler, so I guess I always had a chip on my shoulders when it came to combat sports as folkstyle/freestyle/greco wrestling was always so underrated. I trained with some nationally ranked fighters in MMA (even before it was cool...) and they all wrestled. It taught great endurance, body control, and toughness. Just throw in some remedial strikes and you can handle yourself with the best.
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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by zero11010 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:16 am

You kind of need to dig deeper when you make generalizations about a martial art, or consider one style versus another. You need to look at the root of the style. Individual teachers can do a lot to make learning better/worse. Also, the schools are a business, and if you're looking at 25 students who want to learn one thing, and 8 students who want to learn something else, business savy instructors make the 25 students happy to keep the school open, rather than staying "true to themselves and their art" and ending their job. This often means caving to the masses who are, in general, out of shape, and non confrontational.

What I'm getting at is that there are a lot of factors that go into rating an entire style (it's much easier to rate a school with anecdotal stories about that school than to rate hundreds of thousands of practitioners at once with anecdotal stories about one school in one country).

Most martial arts schools are like restaurants, in that most of them are kinda terrible (if the first Thai food you ever ate was at a bad restaurant in Birmingham Alabama you may not like it much, but that doesn't mean you had a good representation of what is possible with that cuisine). Most martial arts teachers are like the teachers you had at school. Some of them are awesome at it, and it is a joy to learn from them, but most of them understand the information, yet have difficulty conveying complex thoughts (most PEOPLE fall into this category ... teaching is hard).

Hear out my logic. This stuff makes sense.
Murphman wrote:Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai have both done much more than Krav for me as far as understanding fighting and developing good footwork and technique. Again, YMMV.
You got poor instruction from your Krav teachers. They may be great at Krav. Teaching is very different from doing. Footwork is integral for every single martial art.
Doryman wrote:I haven't been impressed with Krav. It's good up to a point, but the lack of non-compliant sparring advance means that one doesn't really get beyond simple drills. You get muscle-memory down, but pressure-testing and your "fight IQ" is pretty neglected. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to go from 0 to somewhat competent, but not really any further.

Now, this is all personal experience, and it's based more on individual school "culture" then the KM style itself (which I think is more or less sound). I'm willing to admit that there are good, hard-sparring, serious Krav schools out there. I've just experienced a lot that leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Yep, that was your school. The school I trained at included people standing in a circle and attacking you from every direction without warning requiring you to use very specific techniques to fend them off (the techniques of the day, reinforcing those techniques and getting high stress practice). Being attacked during training is a part of traditional Krav. Most people are not confrontational enough to deal with it.

It also included special classes in rented spaces like city buses (great for training against multiple attackers in a confined space) and night clubs (great for training in disorienting and crowded environments). Not every school is the same. Don't blame the whole style on one bad school.
Tommy Tinker wrote:Krav will teach you to be aggressive, to be intense, and a few basic techniques. Ferocity and perseverance are crucial in a defensive situation, but those things alone will only take you so far. It seems many Krav classes focus too much time on unlikely scenarios and cardio, and not enough on good technique and sparring. If you've never been in a fight, you might be surprised how quickly all those hours of training fall apart the first time someone is trying to punch you in the face as you attempt those techniques.
If you have more than a few months to train, you'll probably be better off taking MMA, Judo, JKD, Eskrima/Kali, or Muay Thai classes.
I disagree with you heartily. Repeating myself from above, you had bad teachers. At the Krav school I worked out at there were Krav classes which involved person to person training for a substantial portion of the class, and there were separate full contact fight classes. Each of these take place several times per week. Don't blame the martial art because you got poor instruction. The root of the art is real world realism. I've had grandmasters in other systems who were known for going to shady parts of major cities and getting into fights for practice, this information was then used to alter what his schools taught.


If you look to serious martial arts practitioners you will hear a lot of stereotypes about different martial arts. Of course, not all of these are true. But, you will hear certain martial arts being called out as a joke. These tend to be sport martial arts (tae kwon do, mall karate, MMA, and sport kick boxing come to mind) and showmanship styles (like wushu or capoeira). Now, of course, every tae kwon do school isn't a joke, and every tae kwon do teacher isn't incapable of defending themselves in a street fight. However, the root of it is for scoring points. When you have someone that can really deliver beyond that, you have a practitioner who has gone beyond the root of the school. Most people aren't good at the things they do, so starting with a root martial art that is diluted with sport it becomes harder to excel in real world conditions. Some may argue that the goal of every art is to excel within the art beyond any limitations of the teachers. I would argue that the average competent practitioner is the realistic bar of your style.

Why avoid a sport style? The goal in a real fight isn't to win a point. And, taking 15 seconds to bend your arm into a submission hold is sweet! But, when your 3 friends start to kick me in the back of the head it doesn't matter if I can break your arm with a kimura. For the sportsmen to evolve as competitors the style's usage will evolve. The focus starts to change. You are working within a set of rules, and it becomes more efficient for you as a sportsman to shift the focus of your training to take advantage of those rules as much as possible. This is natural, and this is smart for the sport. This also starts to separate your training from real fighting. For example, a fencer is pretty awesome with that foil against other fencers, but if they were both put in their own gear I'd put my money on a traditional kendo practitioner over that fencer.

Why avoid a showmanship sport? Well, if you're trying to impress someone with flashy movements these are an awesome way to go! They especially look fantastic in movies! Turning a flip into a kick look sweet! But, it's retarded. I'm not saying something like capoeira or wushu has no value, I'm just saying that it's less efficient by nature. Happy to explain that further if anyone would like, but I don't want to jump too far down each of these possible rabbit holes.

I do not actively study krav maga, and I'm not shilling for it (I'm sharing knowledge I have about it). I'm not going to explain the history of krav maga because my last name isn't wikipedia (look that crap up, it only takes a moment).

Krav maga was specifically designed to work as a fighting system when you are at your worst and when your life is on the line. I've not heard of any other system that is as brutal (though, I think ninjitsu, and kenpo are pretty much right up there). In krav maga no one cares about how you do when you're rested and prepared. In krav maga no one cares about how you do when you expect the attack.

If the school you are interested in (whatever the style) does not have full contact sparring classes of some sort, go somewhere else. You CANNOT learn a martial art properly throwing punches in the air, or against a bag/dummy. You CANNOT learn a martial art properly if you're defending yourself against attacks that you know are coming and responding with a predetermined technique (two people facing each other, a series of punches are thrown and defender uses block A, block B, block C). These can be great tools for memorization, but a real fight is too different for this to be considered more than a memorization technique.


Want to know what some Krav Maga training is like? Please spend 45 minutes watching this (Fight Quest Season 1 Episode 9):
http://youtu.be/T610Sc1HONo
[YouTube]http://youtu.be/T610Sc1HONo[/YouTube]
This shows some of the traditional training techniques. Group fights, real world scenarios. One of the guys in the episode has an obvious history as an MMA fighter and he has a particularly difficult time dealing with multiple attackers because of his bad habits trying to take the fight to the ground.


Back to the topic of a martial art for use against zombies!
Any system that focuses a significant amount of time on grappling (MMA, jujitsu, judo, and many others), is not something you want as your primary system for use specifically against zombies (those are all great styles for use against people). You want to be able to keep away from a zombie, and every martial art I've heard of covers the basics of grappling which will be more than enough to deal with a zombie. You likely also want a system that has specific training in weapons, because the chance of you taking out multiple zombies with your bare hands (cyborg-wizard-ninja or not) is pretty silly.

Realistically, you also want a style that teaches you weapons that will be useful against zombies. A spear is a sweet weapon, and great against a zombie. How high on your list of things to carry and care for will a spear be? How about a sword? Are nunchaku going to be effective? Will an escrima carry enough force to shatter the skull? A kama is useful for slashing, much less so for piercing, is that what you want to use against a human skull?

I understand that if you apply enough "what if" statements to the answer the above questions about weapons, any weapon can start to become awesome. Be real. Yes, it's possible to make metal escrima which will be durable enough for sustained usage. Do you have them? Will you have them? Is that weight you want to carry? Are you fit enough to swing that much weight around for sustained combat? At some point a narrow unserrated knife into the skull is going to start looking like a great way to conserve energy and carried weight. All of a sudden being trained in weapons like fans, or a 9 section chain is going to feel like having a degree is astrology in a post apocalyptic world.

Krav maga stresses simultaneous defense against multiple attackers. It stresses grappling (basically all fights go to the ground at some point, and every modern martial art covers the topic). It teaches weapons. It teaches people to be at their best even when their body is at their worst (belt tests in krav maga start with hours of exercise JUST to get tired, BEFORE the technique testing begins).

If you wanted a martial art specifically for use against zombies, it would be difficult to do better than krav maga. But, I think it really comes down to the individual practitioner, not the style. If you try to grapple/cuddle with a zombie, you're going to die.


I will say that my personal list of melee weapons for use against zombies include:
* Sidewalk scrapper to be sharpened and used as a spear for longer range melee attacks. To be used at defensive outposts, not something to carry for long distances on foot. My limited training with a bo staff, and a spear will be used.
* Crowbar for medium ranged melee attacks. Basically indestructible, no sharpening needed. Sports tape quickly makes holding it easier. My limited training with escrima will be used.
* Narrow width serration free blade with a substantial hand guard (and ice pick or screw driver with a sharpened point will do in a pinch), a WWI style trench knife is basically ideal. This is my choice for a last resort melee weapon. I don't have any significant training in shanking, but I do understand where the skull's weak points are, and I know where the dangerous part is.
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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Tommy Tinker » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:44 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:it was like CrossFit of the martial arts world.
There is a huge amount of overlap in these crowds. Many Krav places are also Crossfit gyms.
zero11010 wrote:You kind of need to dig deeper when you make generalizations about a martial art, or consider one style versus another. You need to look at the root of the style. ...Most martial arts schools are like restaurants, in that most of them are kinda terrible
Style has a great deal to do with it. I don't care how great of a ninjitsu master you may be; you'll probably get destroyed by someone who wrestled or boxed for a few years as a teenager. There are a great many techniques that are just too difficult, or of too limited a scope, to be of any practical use in 99.999% of fights. Those techniques make for great choreography, though. But when put to the test, they're found to be too impractical to implement, or too ineffective to be worth the effort.
zero11010 wrote:You got poor instruction from your Krav teachers. They may be great at Krav. Teaching is very different from doing. Footwork is integral for every single martial art.
Or maybe almost every Krav program has a curriculum that is of limited effectiveness.
zero11010 wrote:The school I trained at included people standing in a circle and attacking you from every direction
Thank you for providing an example of the unrealistic scenarios I mentioned. Unless it's comprised of 8 year-olds or elderly people, you're not fighting your way out of a circle of attackers unarmed, if they want you maimed or killed. It's not going to happen. If you can't run before the circle closes on you, you're going to get your skull bashed-in and that's all there is to it. This might be an okay drill for teaching someone to be aggressive. But it's not going to teach you how to do something that's nearly impossible. You could teach someone to be aggressive while also training them for a situation they have a chance of surviving in a real fight. If they're coming at you one at a time (like in a lame action movie), well then if you've trained a sport MA, you can handle that.
zero11010 wrote:Don't blame the whole style on one bad school.
I didn't blame the whole style. Krav has some good insights. The thing is, the typical Krav curriculum is too heavily based on things that would more wisely be considered add-ons to more effective systems. Krav was designed to take an untrained person from nothing to something in with minimal time to train. It does a respectable enough job of this. But the typical Krav curriculum is too limited to be of much use beyond that period, which is why I recommended other systems for those who are willing to train beyond, say, 6 months or maybe a year. People make a big deal out of it being used by the IDF. But guess what? They don't put a lot of emphasis on it. It's primarily taught to new recruits. Soldiers spend some time learning hand to hand combat, but the main purpose is to teach them to be aggressive. They don't focus at being good at hand to hand combat. They have rifles and bombs and complex machinery to learn and operate. They're unlikely to ever need hand to hand combat.
zero11010 wrote:Don't blame the martial art because you got poor instruction.
The best instructor in the world isn't going to be able to do much with a weak curriculum.
zero11010 wrote:Why avoid a sport style? The goal in a real fight isn't to win a point.
Depends on the sport. In some MA sports, you can win by disabling your opponent. KO, TKO, submission. If all you're practicing is points-scoring krotty, then sure, maybe that's not the best choice.

How well can you train something that's too dangerous to use in live sparring? You think it would work. It seems to work against a dead uke. But if you don't practice it at or very near full speed, how can you really know?

At least with a sport MA, it's going to keep you honest about how good your skills are.

Early UFC fights were basically no holds barred. Only eye gouging and biting were prohibited. Groin shots and hair pulling were legal, but rarely effective. Fish-hooking, small joint manipulation, strikes to the neck and back of the head, knees to the head of a downed opponent... legal. No point system. Yet UFC back then still looked a lot more like UFC today than what Krav Maga is supposed to look like. And who dominated those earlier competitions? Shoot wrestlers and BJJ. It wasn't anyone from a system that relies on these techniques that are supposedly too dangerous to use in the ring.

I have no doubt there are some Krav schools out there that can make an excellent fighter out of you. They aren't the norm, and the primary reason is because are too much emphasis is put on techniques that have limited applicability, or aren't practiced on a non-compliant partner. It's not hard to understand why, when you see two trained Krav practitioners sparring, they look like two MMA newbies. It makes sense. The techniques that they feel they can use in live sparring are basically MMA techniques. But most Krav programs spend comparatively little time on those techniques. It would be smarter to just train MMA from the beginning, so you'll at least decent at it. And then tack-on those other "street only" moves afterward.

Think about this. If you learn Muay Thai, you'll learn to kick, punch, elbow, and knee the face, body, and legs. Do you really need special training to learn how to kick the groin instead of the torso? If you learn Judo/sombo or BJJ, will you really need additional training to deal with someone choking you with their hands from the side (something Krav programs seem to be inordinately concerned about)? And if you train those and want to train against multiple assailants, go for it. There's nothing about those systems that is stopping you from doing so.

If you learn a serious sport MA, you will know how good you are at those techniques, most of which will carry over very well into the street. Competition forces you to prove what you know. And if you want, you can supplement it with the "street only" techniques that you can merely hope will work when the time comes to use them for real. And those few techniques that don't carry over well? There will be some, but not many, you'll know better than to try using them in the street, and all the street-valid stuff you did learn will be more effective than what you're likely to learn in a Krav class.

It makes little sense to train a system that claims to rely so heavily on techniques that can't be tested against a non-compliant training partner.

Again, Krav is fine for taking someone from nothing to something. It will teach some very very basic techniques. But more importantly, it teaches someone to be aggressive and to persevere until the fight is over. It has some other good techniques that would be good to supplement a more rigorous and testable system. It just doesn't make sense to train Krav long-term (unless it's the only thing available to you).

Speaking of availability... most folks are far more likely to have a good judo, BJJ, MT, MMA, etc school in your area than they are to have a good Krav school in their area. So there's no sense in them holding out for something that probably doesn't exist near them.
zero11010 wrote:But, when your 3 friends start to kick me in the back of the head it doesn't matter if I can break your arm with a kimura.
Obviously if there's a threatening crowd, you don't want to be on the ground. Even BJJ instructors recognize this. But Judo will teach you how to put an opponent on the pavement while staying on your own feet. Judo and BJJ will teach you how to get up off the ground if you somehow end up there anyway. They excel at exactly this sort of stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thp7ipnjyTI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoZHy0wL_50
zero11010 wrote:Want to know what some Krav Maga training is like? Please spend 45 minutes watching this (Fight Quest Season 1 Episode 9):
http://youtu.be/T610Sc1HONo
[YouTube]http://youtu.be/T610Sc1HONo[/YouTube]
This shows some of the traditional training techniques. Group fights, real world scenarios. One of the guys in the episode has an obvious history as an MMA fighter and he has a particularly difficult time dealing with multiple attackers because of his bad habits trying to take the fight to the ground.
First, only one of those Krav guys looks to have good technique, and he's basically doing Muay Thai kicks. The rest look sloppy and inexperienced. In a 1-on-1 street fight, probably none of them would stand a chance against either of those two hosts.

Second, both of those guys train MMA, though one is more experienced than the other. The first guy ends up on the ground because the people he's fighting keep knowingly kicking at his injured leg. They kick his injured leg, and he falls. They did the same to him the previous day. I'm not sure how someone is supposed to train when they're too injured to practice the techniques, but that's a different issue. He ends up on the ground because he is in too much pain to stand.
The second guy isn't going to the ground deliberately, either. They fall because that often happens when people struggle with each other.

Either way, it's a good point. Even if you don't want to go to the ground, you might end up there, and you shouldn't assume you'll be able to just pop back up. What are you going to do in that situation? If you have to fight on the ground for whatever reason, shouldn't you know how to? Even if you think all you need to know of ground fighting is how to escape, how are you going to train that? Unless you can afford to hire someone to be your personal uke and coach, then you're going to be training with another student who wants to learn just as much as you do. To get the most of your training, you each need to be good at ground offense so that you can help each other get good at ground defense.
zero11010 wrote:Yes, it's possible to make metal escrima which will be durable enough for sustained usage.
What do you mean? Whatever you learn in escrima/kali will readily transfer to wielding a metal pipe, baseball bat, machete, knife, etc. That's the origin of the art - fighting with whatever weapons were at hand. It will be useful against living adversaries and the shambling undead horde alike. Against zombies only, just about any melee weapon martial art will work, so long as you practice it well enough not to accidentally smack yourself in the face or balls. But you might as well learn something useful against living monsters, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvmLQ_Jjqmk
zero11010 wrote:If you wanted a martial art specifically for use against zombies, it would be difficult to do better than krav maga. But, I think it really comes down to the individual practitioner, not the style. If you try to grapple/cuddle with a zombie, you're going to die.
All those years spent in Krav practicing groin kicks aren't going to do you any good against a zeke either.

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by zero11010 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:52 pm

Tommy Tinker wrote: ...
I don't think you and I will be able to have a conversation about this topic. You have formed opinions and you don't seem to be receptive to information. In some cases you're discounting facts. In some cases you're using false logic. In other cases you're looking at information you know very little about and making huge negative assumptions. You have decided that Krav Maga is poor. That's fine. I'm not going to spend the time trying to change your mind.

You like MMA a lot, that's cool. It's very effective in some situations! I've enjoyed UFC fights since the 90s and really enjoyed watching Pride (before UFC bought and destroyed it). I also enjoyed the first few seasons of Ultimate Fighter and the concept of showing amateur to professional growth in fighters. If this is more your speed, you may enjoy the GraceBreakdown youtube channel. They look at fights that have gone viral on youtube and give a BJJ breakdown of potential counters from their style.

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Tommy Tinker » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:29 pm

Maybe we just need to break this down piece by piece to make sure nothing is being misinterpreted or overlooked.

1. What techniques or training does Krav used that are not used by other MAs like Thai boxing, judo, bjj, full contact karate, sanshou, or just general mma?
2. Why do those techniques and training methods require an entire system dedicated to them, rather than just treating them as supplemental to another MA?
3.
A. Are there any of those techniques that cannot be used in live sparring?
B. If any of them cannot be used in live sparring, how can you be confident they'll be effective if used in a real fight?
C. If any of them cannot be used in live sparring, how can you be confident that you'll be able to employ them correctly in a real fight?
4. Can anyone provide a video of Krav practitioners sparring, where it is clear that they are doing something distinct from what would be taught in another MA class?
5. Can anyone provide a video of a Krav practitioner effectively using, in a real fight, a technique that is taught in Krav programs but not in mma or another of the aforementioned systems?

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Murphman » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:14 pm

Ok, guys. We like to have nice things here (that is ZS talk for STFU or you will get a time-out from a mod).

This type of argument will never have a winner. What you both need to agree upon is that martial arts, any martial art, is important to individual preparedness. Understanding basic fighting techniques are a key element to unarmed combat, and EVERY martial art, including ninjitsu and krav maga and judo and bjj and muay thai, etc, etc, etc, does that in the beginning stages.
"If you are prepped for pandemic flu, you are more than prepped for Ebola. And pandemic flu is hella more likely, that's the one that scares me, personally." - Duodecima...and she's a freaking doctor. What are you?

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:38 pm

I agree with Murphman. Writing a novel will never convince someone differently. I like combat sports, but that doesn't mean I agree with everyone else who likes them.

I think the key is "trained" vs "untrained". It comes down to who puts in the time and effort. When I wrestled competitively, I put in 3 hours a day for about 6 years for strictly wrestling. Even if folkstyle wrestling is inferior to karate (it isn't, just different), I still could destroy Joe Flipperhead who goes to the dojo twice a week. Not cuz I'm Tommy Toughnuts or Billy Badass, but because I trained long and hard (dirty)
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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Tommy Tinker » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:15 pm

I think it's a mistake to assume that training one thing is as good as training another, so long as enough effort is put into it. There are all sorts of MAs that you could train several hours a day for years, and the guy going to the dojo 2x a week for a more effective MA is going to own you in a fight. I'll put my money on a varsity wrestler over a wing chun master with decades of training any day of the week if they were to fight. And wrestling is a very popular sport in many countries, including the US. There's a good enough chance that your assailant could be a former wrestler. If your training isn't effective enough for you to at least hold your own against a former wrestler, then you've probably wasted a lot of time which could've been spent learning a better system.

The ZPAW would be good for Krav practitioners, though. They'll be in hog heaven. Not only will they be well-prepared for fighting against clumsy, slow-moving adversaries, they'll also finally be able to practice all those street-only moves at full speed. The undead aren't going to complain about any of it. And yes, all of that cardio Krav does will be indispensible.

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Murphman » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:45 am

Tommy Tinker wrote:I think it's a mistake to assume that training one thing is as good as training another, so long as enough effort is put into it. There are all sorts of MAs that you could train several hours a day for years, and the guy going to the dojo 2x a week for a more effective MA is going to own you in a fight. I'll put my money on a varsity wrestler over a wing chun master with decades of training any day of the week if they were to fight. And wrestling is a very popular sport in many countries, including the US. There's a good enough chance that your assailant could be a former wrestler. If your training isn't effective enough for you to at least hold your own against a former wrestler, then you've probably wasted a lot of time which could've been spent learning a better system.

The ZPAW would be good for Krav practitioners, though. They'll be in hog heaven. Not only will they be well-prepared for fighting against clumsy, slow-moving adversaries, they'll also finally be able to practice all those street-only moves at full speed. The undead aren't going to complain about any of it. And yes, all of that cardio Krav does will be indispensible.
I don't disagree completely, but the passive aggressive "compliments", again, should be left at the door. Not everyone is going to agree with you, and we all now know your take on KM.

Two better places to have this discussion: http://www.bloodyelbow.com or http://www.mmamania.com
"If you are prepped for pandemic flu, you are more than prepped for Ebola. And pandemic flu is hella more likely, that's the one that scares me, personally." - Duodecima...and she's a freaking doctor. What are you?

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Mikeyboy » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:23 am

We have been over this a few time on ZS. The best fighter is going to have a combination of striking skills, ground skills, stamina, strength, heart and luck. You need to follow a KISS principle. Getting bogged down with advanced techniques, and multiple intricate moves goes out the window when you are outside the Dojo, your life is one the line and adrenaline and fear is racing . Have basics punches, strikes, kicks, lock, throws, holds and a few time tested moves to get out of bad situations like getting out of a full mount, and you will be fine.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you are a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, BBJ, Krav Maga, or an Olympic wrestler...an extremely pissed off, muscle head, throwing windmills will still clean your clock if you don't bring your "A" game.

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Tommy Tinker » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:06 pm

Murphman wrote:Not everyone is going to agree with you,
Well, yes, that's why I'm debating.
Murphman wrote:and we all now know your take on KM.
Not all of it.
Murphman wrote:Two better places to have this discussion: http://www.bloodyelbow.com or http://www.mmamania.com
Why would I want to discuss this somewhere else? It was brought up here. You yourself wrote "martial arts, any martial art, is important to individual preparedness." So clearly you also think this is the right place to discuss martial arts. I happen to disagree with the "any" part of your statement, and I'm explaining why.

What's the deal? Why are people trying to get me to hush-up? Are people here hypersensitive to real criticisms of any martial arts, or something? I have a substantial disagreement with something that has been said. I'm detailing my point of view on the subject. This is encouraged in the forum rules, no?

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by zero11010 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:08 pm

Tommy Tinker wrote:What's the deal? Why are people trying to get me to hush-up? Are people here hypersensitive to real criticisms of any martial arts, or something? I have a substantial disagreement with something that has been said. I'm detailing my point of view on the subject. This is encouraged in the forum rules, no?
I can't speak for anyone else. From my perspective, debate is great! But, it has to be healthy debate and further the topic of conversation. I included my thoughts on why I didn't want to debate the topic with you any further above.

I think you're entitled to your opinions. I think it's healthy to hear different sides on a topic. I think that some healthy verbal confrontation is good for people. In my estimation it's very difficult to have a debate with you in particular because you have a very narrow view of the topic at hand. You know things, and lots of things! But, you have clearly formed opinions that limit your potential growth. It's almost like you're aggressively arguing that the world is flat. I respect you. I value your willingness to share your opinions, and especially your eagerness to hear what others have to say! I don't think I can find any common ground with you on this topic. Forget about Krav Maga as a subject, I mean in general.

That's why I stopped talking to you about the topic.

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:12 pm

Everyone has opinions that are formed and chances are no one views will change much. I don't think it will require any further elaboration because the "debate" debate always seems to come up on every forum, so we are all no different!!! :awesome:

On a side note, that double leg take down in the walking dead is a staple of wrestling and MMA.... Just saying :clap:

Whatever you do, don't be this guy:



http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE
Last edited by JeeperCreeper on Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Murphman » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:12 pm

Tommy Tinker wrote: What's the deal? Why are people trying to get me to hush-up? Are people here hypersensitive to real criticisms of any martial arts, or something? I have a substantial disagreement with something that has been said. I'm detailing my point of view on the subject. This is encouraged in the forum rules, no?

If you took a few minutes to listen, instead of insisting everyone listen to you, people would be more receptive to discussion with you. This isn't an aggressive forum. We share ideas. We are a charity. We help people. We don't degrade others' opinions.

I helped you by giving you links to two places where a confrontational debate can be had if that is what you are looking for, because eventually someone will flag you for the type of debate you are giving, and a mod will step in.

Again, I am trying to help.

As far as real criticisms of martial arts, there are plenty, for every martial art given certain situations, but this is a preparedness forum, not a martial arts forum, and discussing them in an aggressive manner doesn't help me get more prepared. You gave your opinion on KM, move along...please. And that honestly is meant in the most sincere manner.
"If you are prepped for pandemic flu, you are more than prepped for Ebola. And pandemic flu is hella more likely, that's the one that scares me, personally." - Duodecima...and she's a freaking doctor. What are you?

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by Tommy Tinker » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:22 pm

zero11010 wrote:In my estimation it's very difficult to have a debate with you in particular because you have a very narrow view of the topic at hand. You know things, and lots of things! But, you have clearly formed opinions that limit your potential growth. It's almost like you're aggressively arguing that the world is flat.
You had one post on the topic, and I rebutted several specific parts of it. Your next post was a vague assertion that I was ignoring facts, and that I wasn't being receptive to information, yet you didn't address anything I wrote. To make sure I was being receptive, I asked several direct questions. The questions have gone unanswered, the points I made remain unaddressed, and I'm still told I'm being unreceptive.
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zero11010 wrote:Forget about Krav Maga as a subject, I mean in general.

That's why I stopped talking to you about the topic.
I asked why I am (again) being asked to hush, not why you in particular decided you didn't want to talk about it anymore. If you don't want to discuss it, then you don't want to. That's cool. I don't have a problem with that. But it does make it seem all the more odd that I'm told that I'm the one who's being unreceptive.
Murphman wrote:If you took a few minutes to listen, instead of insisting everyone listen to you, people would be more receptive to discussion with you.
I did the same thing everyone else did. I stated my opinion on the subject. I even went a step further by asking, in the most clear and precise way I could, for someone to explain where I might be wrong.
Murphman wrote:We help people.
I'm trying to help people avoid wasting their time on training may be poorly suited to their goal of preparedness.
Murphman wrote:We don't degrade others' opinions.
I've re-read my posts, and I'm really not sure where you're getting this. I'm clearly disagreeing with the opinions of other people. And I'm clearly criticizing Krav Maga. But I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Is being critical of an opinion the same as degrading it? I certainly haven't made any personal insults.
Murphman wrote:Again, I am trying to help.
Please help me with this: I've made several points, with explanations, of what I find wrong about the Krav system. How would you re-word what I wrote so that the same points are made, but in a way that you think would be more acceptable?
Murphman wrote:As far as real criticisms of martial arts, there are plenty, for every martial art given certain situations, but this is a preparedness forum
Is it not appropriate to discuss whether or not a particular MA is a good choice for preparedness?

Your explanation for why the discussion should be concluded depends on a certain assumption. But it's my disagreement with that very assumption that is at the heart of my argument.
Namely, I do not think it is at all true that any MA is just as good as another for defense preparedness. If the discussion were about selecting a MA for fun, then sure, one is just as good as another, depending on what you like. If the discussion were about getting in shape, then almost any MA is going to suffice for that. But preparedness has a much more narrow scope of applicability, and, as I've attempted to explain, many MAs are vastly inferior to others in this regard.
Murphman wrote:You gave your opinion on KM, move along...please..
I've given a few opinions on various aspects of Krav. I have other opinions on other aspects of it that I have not given.
For example, I think it's good that Krav teaches beginners to do palm strikes rather than closed-fist punches. Learning to throw a closed-fist punch correctly takes training, and can result in a broken hand if done incorrectly. Palm strikes are much safer, and if training an inexperienced person with the goal of getting their abilities effective in a short period of time, they should definitely be taught first.

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Re: Krav Maga for the Zombie Apocalypse!

Post by itzybitzyspyder » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:49 pm

A hyper-aggressive fighting style will not wok on a zed who isn't phased by your aggression.
~sent via pigeon with a note on it's foot

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