NNY2011WCT! February 4-7

[Jamie]

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.ph ... n=-74.2511

The NOAA website is calling for -22F on Saturday night, and -34F on Sunday night!!!

I think I'll try to hang in my backyard Sunday night to see how the UQ works...

Jamie - nfa

[Bster13]

I wish I had the ability to test in that weather. That's awesome. GL.

[Festus Hagen]

With severe enough arm-twisting, I could probably be talked into something stupid for one or both nights... anyone? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[Bster13]

I have been approved for 1/2 Day off on Monday.

I am in for Sunday night.

[Jamie]

I have been approved for 1/2 Day off on Monday.

I am in for Sunday night.

I've cleared my Monday morning classes, but haven't spoken with Gail yet, so I'm mostly in for Sunday night...

J

[thelight]

With severe enough arm-twisting, I could probably be talked into something stupid for one or both nights... anyone? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Polar Bear Club? We've got the pond right there, just saying...

[Festus Hagen]

Come on up, we're leaving my place around 8am Sunday (one night only) if you want to ride with. We'll run the video camera for youtube if you really want to do the polar bear thing

With severe enough arm-twisting, I could probably be talked into something stupid for one or both nights... anyone? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Polar Bear Club? We've got the pond right there, just saying...

[Bunsen]

I have no Monday classes or meetings this semester (woohoo!). Fridays are sorta full, though, so I have to decide between setting up in the dark late Friday night (traditional as it may be, I don't know if I want to do that this time) or coming up Saturday morning.

I'm also open to the possibility of sharing some or all of the driving between Buffalo and the camp, in case anybody's interested. Depends on how much crap I can pack in my car, of course.

[Rush2112]

Am I the only one arriving Friday, now?

[Jamie]

Am I the only one arriving Friday, now?

We're not talking about the weekend of the 4-7, we've been talking about making a cold weather ninja run this weekend.

Festus and Bster will be coming up Sunday afternoon (January 23rd), camping overnight, and leaving Monday morning...the reason being that it is supposed to get down to -32 over Sunday night.

To the best of my knowledge, everyone is still arriving on Friday the 4th for the WCT...I know that I am.

Jamie - nfa

[SirSharpe]

OK... my plan for sleeping and walking around is as good as it's gonna get. Next is food.

Q: I suppose it would be easier to just ask if there is any food that does't freeze? I plan on bringing mostly Mt. House / insant oatmeal / GORP, (plus cocoa and coffee). I'm 'meal planning' and need some advise. Bare in mind that I'm am a bachelor, and anything more complicated than "mac and cheese" I consider to be extravagant, so no rabbit curry! Also, I don't want to "sleep" with everything I bring to avoid freezing: food/ water/ fuel/ medicine....

Oh... and sanitation too, do "wet wipes" freeze? What about toothpaste?

HELP?

P.S. My Yaesu VX-7R just came in the mail yesterday! Super-phyched!

[Bunsen]

Pretty much everything freezes (though I think my toothpaste remained squeezable last year). I've seen two general approaches to food: bring food that either can't freeze (dehydrated) or can be cooked directly from frozen, or bring a cooler and put a bottle of hot water in it now and then to keep it above freezing. I didn't have a cooler last year, so I went with the former approach. Mountain House, oatmeal, MRE entrees with heaters, mac and cheese with the premixed sauce, and boiled (unfiltered, 'cause filters don't like being frozen) pond water worked fairly well. The pond water won't kill you, but it will really make you appreciate the first thing you drink after leaving camp.

I'm hauling a cooler this time, and I'll try burying it in snow to improve the insulation. I don't think it's big enough to hold a whole weekend's worth of water, though, so I may end up trying the Chateau Polliwogue '10 anyway. As for food, I'm looking toward things I can cook on the campfire -- sausages, potatoes, maybe some biscuits or the like in a dutch oven (which I also have now), bacon and eggs in the ol' cast iron skillet, etc.. Mountain House and mac & cheese will still be well represented.

[CrackMunk]

along with SirSharpe's ques. will putting food and water in cooler or car help keep it from freezing?
I have one, what about electronics ie.. cell phones, flash lights, batterys, Ipods...... will they freeze or die sooner in the cold temps?

[Festus Hagen]

along with SirSharpe's ques. will putting food and water in cooler or car help keep it from freezing?
I have one, what about electronics ie.. cell phones, flash lights, batterys, Ipods...... will they freeze or die sooner in the cold temps?

I was the one last year to use a Nalgene bottle or two of hot water in a cooler to keep the contents thawed and it worked... ok. It was a lot of water to boil with an alcohol stove (the only stove I used last year) and sometimes the water would still be somewhat frozen in the morning but still largely liquid, enough to use anyways.

The first year we had a nice collection of various proof alcohols, it was fun to see which ones were still fully liquid in the morning (Vodka for example), which were slushy (Ouzo), and which were frozen solid (beer, Schnapps). That "bury it in the snow, it will stay thawed" idea only goes so far

Most electronics HATE sub-zero. I had a digital camera quit working the first year, and a digital thermometer that quit displaying anything below zero or so (although it did keep reading temps and remembered the coldest). Best to keep things like cameras, cell phones, Ipods in your inner pockets whenever possible. Headlamps over flashlights, you stick them on your head anyways although I had one LED headlamp that kept throwing light that was more and more yellow as the night wore on... with fresh batteries.

For tonight's episode I'm going to use a butane stove. Yes, they're not known for burning well in massively cold weather, but Famine always had good luck with his. My plan is to keep the fuel and stove in the cooler with the hot water bottles and water when I'm not using it... and I have my trusty alcohol stove as backup

Freeze-dried foods like Mtn House work great, but some sort of "cozy" helps them keep temperature while they are rehydrating. Even an extra hat you can stuff the packet into will work, while our own NFA made a pretty cool cozy-camp seat a while back... viewtopic.php?f=34&t=60684&p=1285943

Wish us luck tonight!

[Jamie]

I keep the stuff that has frozen, or that I don't want to freeze, in an inner pocket near my center-mass...

I sleep with a nalgene of water in my sleeping bag, so that my first hot beverage of the day doesn't have to be melted before boiling...

I use viva paper towels for tp, I found that wet-wipes made my naughty bits shrink to the size of pores, and like the sturdy/comfy wipability with cold/numb hands and if snow gets on it...

I keep my next snack and nalgene of water inside my coat all day, rotating the next one inside to thaw as I eat/drink the current one...

Jamie - nfa

[Bunsen]

On the subject of boiling water: Whether for keeping a cooler thawed or sterilizing pond water for drinking, one tends to do a lot of boiling. If you do this on a stove, bring plenty of fuel, and preferably a stove with a windscreen (most butane stoves suck about that). I did it with my Swedish mess kit hanging over the campfire last year, which worked pretty well. It's not very fast (depends on the fire), but you can hang it there and do something else without worrying about running out of fuel or having your stove knocked over. If you plan on drinking water boiled over the fire, use a container with a lid. I left that off the first time, and my first quart of water was more like wood ash soup.

Some electronics fare better than others, and it's hard to guess which will take how much cold. NiMH and alkaline batteries perform very poorly in the cold, while lithiums don't seem to mind it a bit. I plan to keep a spare set of lithium AAs as a backup, but use my usual NiMH batteries as much as possible (purely due to being a cheapass -- those lithium AAs are damnably expensive).

[CrackMunk]

On the subject of boiling water: Whether for keeping a cooler thawed or sterilizing pond water for drinking, one tends to do a lot of boiling. If you do this on a stove, bring plenty of fuel, and preferably a stove with a windscreen (most butane stoves suck about that). I did it with my Swedish mess kit hanging over the campfire last year, which worked pretty well. It's not very fast (depends on the fire), but you can hang it there and do something else without worrying about running out of fuel or having your stove knocked over. If you plan on drinking water boiled over the fire, use a container with a lid. I left that off the first time, and my first quart of water was more like wood ash soup.

Ash adds the smoky flavor! LOL. With the amount of camping I do (in summer). I have about 2 cases of propane , Coleman's factory outlet was having a 30% off sale and I picked up a extra case when I got my new tent (#7) , I also have a Thermos that should stay hot as long as I keep it in my tent at night. my stove is open to anyone that wants to use it. I will ether bring the 2burner camp stove or the Coleman tailgater grill, ( just for the size cus my pots for the P.L. dinner wont fit on the camp stove) my clan has been reduced down to 2:yes, 2: maybe 1: no. shame the one that really wanted to go (Ryan) has drill he can't miss. I dont think any will last the whole weekend to tell the truth. I'm still hoping I will make the whole weekend, going to try.

[feuer]

Electronics - I came up last year with a fully charged cell-phone,...but forgot to bring a charger. So, on the first night I arrived I made a schedule with my GF informing her I would check in every morning and evening, but turn my phone off the rest of the time. After 3 days of sub-zero temps I went home with 50% battery power in the phone.
My fully charged rechargeable radio batteries, which I did not use that long weekend also lost about 50% of their charge,....so yeah, battery life is a consideration.

Water - I slept with and carried around a nalgene or small plastic bottle of water to keep it warm enough to prevent freezing, and that worked for me. The smaller plastic watter bottles fit better in my cargo pockets.

Food - I had a cheap $30 cooler for my food which was mostly dehydrated/freeze dried stuff. I used Egg Beaters brand liquid egg mix instead of actual eggs so I wouldn't have to worry about breakage, and even though I didn't warm my cooler in any way they stayed liquid. A cooler is handy just for sitting on too, and because its insulated it won't be as cold as the ground. Which reminds me, bring something to sit on.
I have some Mtn House stuff, but I also like Knorrs Easy Sides for easy tasty camping food.
http://www.letsmakeknorr.com/Products/
http://www.eggbeaters.com/

Wet Wipes - I like wet wipes when I camp, but they froze solid on me up in "the dacks".
We hung a roll of TP in the outhouse(in a zip lock bag) which worked well there.
Paper towels are handy for other cleaning/wiping stuff, and are easily burned as tinder too.

And,....I plan to be up there on thursday night thru till saturday night.

[CrackMunk]

Just made myself a cozie for food pouch and coffee mug. food pouch is dbl fleece w/ mylar in the middle. mug's is just a fleece sleeve.

[laditek]

For brushing your teeth the whisps work pretty well. No toothpaste to freeze.

[thelight]

Given the temperatures that NFA's been seeing up there, I think it's very important for folks to have backup plans for this trip and to be willing to use them should the need arise. Remember, at much below -20 exposed skin can and does freeze. Start getting to -30 with a breeze and you've only got a few minutes. Here's a chart that would make Perot proud...
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jetstream/global/chill.htm

If someone in your group doesn't have good enough gear, what are you going to do? If your own gear isn't good enough, where are you going to go? What's the point at which you're going to use your backup plan(s)? Do you know the signs of hypothermia?

Here's my plan:
I'm pretty confident that me/laditek & our gear can handle down to -30. Much below that and I'm officially nervous. I've got the little catalytic heater for an emergency but I can't leave that on all night. My first contingency is to build a snow cave for Laditek and I with a snow shovel I'm bringing. Temps inside should stay around +30 at the worst. If that doesn't pan out for whatever reason, I'm not going to hesitate to go to a hotel or hostel. It may not be glorious but I've had frostbite. It's like riding a zombie horse...

Not trying to put a damper on things here, just want to make sure folks have backup plans and are willing to use them. We've always pulled together on trips like this and have looked out for each-other so I'm not particularly worried about that. But It's always good to be prepared, right?

-TL
the safety nazi with a mangina and a heart of gold...

[CrackMunk]

to tell the truth if the temps are lower then -15 I might be backing out. lower then -20 I know my gear wont keep me warm. I wont freeze, but I would be cold. and if your cold you can't have fun. so whats the point. As far as my clan, I have also told them I don't want anyone going if they or their gear cant handle -15. and to remember this is not like going snowboarding that gear WONT keep them warm. As much as I would love having my son & friends there I don't want to risk anyones safety. I just hope some of them are lurking reading all of this.

I will be wearing a poly pro base layer, expedition layer, mix cotton/poly therm.,fleece pants, snow pants (day use) mil. poly fiber pants w/wp windpants(night use). layers of fleece and down coat. removing and adding as needed. I have 1 wool mit/glove, 1 mitten, 1 fleece mit/glove, 3 fleece hats(1with a pull-down face/neck gaiter) , 2 neoprene face masks, a polypro & a fleece hooding thing( can't say it or spell it). 2 fleece scarfs. 2 prs of -40 wool socks, 3pr fleece socks 4 pr wool socks, 2 pr of therm socks. Will I be warm enough? Only can tell when I get there, as I have only tested this with 0* temps and sitting on my ass for 1/2-1hr in the back yard. Ass got cold so I came in. I do have a heater to but like Light & laditek, I wont be running it at night do to safety reasons. 2 pr snow boots (1 -40) I have worked on my sleeping bags and replaced the fleece liner with a dbl fleece liner with mylar in the middle.

Am I scared? Hell Yes I am!! a little fear keeps you alive and thinking.
as far as when do I go to plan b-c-d-..... when I start feeling cold and cant get warm with the norm.... moving around,drinking hot coco....
my back up plans. and I just may skip b+c and go right for D or E

b.u. plan b: get other bags from car
b.u. plan c: sleep in car
b.u, plan d: go to hotel
b.u. plan e: go home

has anyone ever tried putting mylar spacebanket between the fly and tent? does it hold in the heat or just make condensation?

[Famine]

The condensation bit always gets me because people have come out of their tents with big white frost bibs, freeze on the inside of their gear, and so on. I've never had the problem. When I rack out I hunker my head into my bag, leave a little ventilation hole at the top, and snooze (occasionally I snuggle into Jamies ridgerest until I've got most of it under ME). I wake up much warmer without any condensation problems, YMMV.

I'm re-thinking my sleep system for this trip, but I doubt it'll cause me any grief. Sleeping was only a problem for me the first year, and when Rick let me try out that bivvy. Otherwise once I racked out I was pretty golden. A nalgene at my feet and some peanut butter and a sip of what I'm pretty sure was coco additive (Jamie keeps the pee and additive in the same bottle) and I was out like a light until AM, unless I had to pee.

If you keep active during the day, eat plenty of calories for your body to burn, play it smart with layering, you don't misjudge your body and it's responses to colder weather and you'll be fine.

[Horatio_Tyllis]

It's starting to look very unlikely that I will be attending this trip. If I can't make it then expect me for the first available warm weather trip.