Dealing with a knife threat

[Murph]

Good thing real life is just like the movies!!

[Boondock]

Good thing real life is just like the movies!!

You mean a 40-foot bullwhip isn't a good BOB weapon, either?

I'm so screwed!

[M14fan]

Murph, That is my exact understanding of those terms. Thanks for the clarification. I considered all of my encounters to be threats because even the one that actually put words into action left me uninjured (not his intent, I was just faster with my hands and REEEEEEAAAAALLLLLYYY fortunate)

[Murph]

Murph, That is my exact understanding of those terms. Thanks for the clarification. I considered all of my encounters to be threats because even the one that actually put words into action left me uninjured (not his intent, I was just faster with my hands and REEEEEEAAAAALLLLLYYY fortunate)

I wasn't speaking to anyone in particular, there was just a lot of personal stories and youtube videos getting tossed around. So, I just wanted to try and keep everything on the same page and not have people discussing what they thought was the same topic, but in reality a completely different situation.

[PackLemming]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. You advocate breaking contact, but breaking contact got you stabbed

Correct. And taking evasive action when a gun is swung about by a belligerent may still end up with a ricochet wound.

While taking a Jet Li stand with your hand in their pocket caused your attackers to recoil in abject fear of you?

My pocket. Not their's. And the abject fear part is not my description of the reactions.

The distance between me and the two men was 1-2 meters before the shiv was introduced and demands made by muscle mouth.

Reaching for my pocket did not cause a violent reaction as they expected I was reaching for the 'pay off', my hand still I pocket clenching onto a large knife I asked if they wanted a 'draw'. The unarmed mugger said "yeah", the shiv carrier looked pale and stayed silent. They did not plunge the shiv into me, they did not begin to check for nearby 'witnesses', a sure sign of incoming attack. Shiv man walked away with muscle mouth having to work out the puzzle for himself. I payed little attention to him once his 'weapon' broke. I was off and in a hurry, the opposite direction of shiv man.

I had produced an unrecognizable to their eyes counter threat for the offenders to eyeball closely, this was a preoccupation I had previously to endure but with the stakes equalized I could make much better decisions. A knife attack from these two clowns no matter how slow witted they were is still however a deadly threat and to tell the truth I was scared.

[M14fan]

Murph wrote:

I wasn't speaking to anyone in particular, there was just a lot of personal stories and youtube videos getting tossed around. So, I just wanted to try and keep everything on the same page and not have people discussing what they thought was the same topic, but in reality a completely different situation.

I assure you sir, I didn't take that as personally directed and the thanks for the clarification was genuine as I had noticed a similar confusion of terms. Please carry on.

[squinty]

From the Indiana Jones playbook.

Standard response to that Raiders clip: Scimitar dude was not trying to hurt Dr. Jones. He stood well outside Tueller range and performed a very impressive sword juggling exhibition, and at no point did he even try to get close enough to hurt our hero. He was probably expecting applause or maybe a tip*, instead of a bullet to the chest.

Seriously, watch it again. Dude just twirls the sword around harmlessly then tosses it from hand to hand all pleased with himself. Does he even look like he's trying to cut anybody? He does not. At worst he's bluffing, trying to scare people without actually closing with them. If dude had come charging in fast, or casually walked up to a distracted Jones with the sword hidden under his robe, whipping it out at the last second and immediately cutting with it...Indiana Jones would have been bisected. Raider clip = funny, but =/= a realistic demonstration of effective knife technique.

*Tip: don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Rimshot.

[Smü]

I'm not sure everyone is using the same lexicon, so I'll purpose this:

Knife Threat: A knife is displayed to intimidate, but not actually used.
Knife Attack: A knife is used to inflict bodily harm.
Knife Fight: Two (or more) people have knives and use them against each other to inflict bodily harm.

Funny thing, I don't use these terms in the way you put them down. While I totally agree with #1 and #2, #3 would be

#3 - Knife Fight: One participant of a fight uses a knife.

and then I usually use

#4 - Knife duel: Two (or more) people have knives and use them against each other to inflict bodily harm.

I took the phrase "knife duel" from Marc Macyoung, who referred to the rare incident of two people trying to slice each other as a duel situation.* Oddly enough, #4 is the variant that seems to be taught most of the time when instructors want students to learn anti-knife techniques.

Just my 1.23 Cents (adjusted for inflation). Move on, nothing to see here.

--------------------
* He goes on in great lenght about how unrealistic such a scenario is and how flawed any MA is relying too heavily on being armed with a similar weapon like the one you are attacked with. While I don't agree in total, he has made some very well put and thought out points on that matter.

[PackLemming]

The preamble/posturing acted out in the video is often understood as the 'interview' process. If the selected target qualifies as soft the offensive postured party may attack, I say may for a reason. The instructor was demonstrating to the class a lesson in violence where a committed character acted within a vacuous setting, he did not inform them of the other tell-tale signs related to criminal intent and aggressive murderous maneuvering.

His 'role' in the lesson was purely to intimidate the class! This may well be a sales technique to bully the class membership into pursuing tutorship at a fee.

This technique is frequently used in 'Asian' martial arts systems that have formal 'ranking' or 'belt grading' systems. It provides a psychological framework that allows tutors to brow beat the neophytes into a submissive standing when infact provided by personal experience they are equal, one and all. Many instructors that sell technique and 'coping strategy' are not experienced in real world settings, mastering the illusion of capability is what makes them just as much a danger to the student as the real world test.

[Ableto]

I think i will leave this here for stupid giggles.
http://youtu.be/4bLTZ4CUEDE

[Regular Guy]

@ 1:39. It's like he's reading my mind. Now, exchange the sticks for knives.

[Cybrludite]

Hank Reinhardt mentions that when taking control of the other guy's knife arm, you want to grab the hand & not the wrist. Grabbing the wrist leaves room for them to shift the knife around & cut your hand. Grabbing the hand avoids this, and lets you try & pry it out of their grip.

[squinty]

Hank Reinhardt mentions that when taking control of the other guy's knife arm, you want to grab the hand & not the wrist. Grabbing the wrist leaves room for them to shift the knife around & cut your hand. Grabbing the hand avoids this, and lets you try & pry it out of their grip.

Shorin-Ryu taught some technique of jamming or deflecting with the pinky side of the palm applied somewhere between the elbow and upper forearm of the knife hand, then sliding the hand down the forearm while closing the first two fingers and thumb against the forearm in the process. Done right, this ended up with the blocking/sliding hand locking solidly right over the wrist joint of the knife hand, with the middle finger over the crease where the wrist bends, and the attacker's knife hand subject to manipulation by the defender's gripping hand. This was supposed to be part of a single, flowing motion that led into a manipulation of the attacker's wrist and elbow, and a subsequent arm bar or take down. Sometimes kicks to the inside of a supporting knee, or a sweep, would be incorporated into the takedown - it looked sort of like aikido, but not quite as clean or graceful.

I seldom got it to work properly against a resisting opponent, though it worked on me when I tried my damnedest to stab more advanced students - it worked better if I were really committed to the cut or stab, but it still worked, just with less grace and more brute force on the defenders part, if I did little flicky stabs and cuts without throwing my weight or hips into them. In the latter case, it felt less like a block and more like they had sort of cruised to my outside while slapping or chopping into my arm. Sometimes they would use two hands at the same time, hitting my humerus just above the elbow with their outside hand (their left, if I was holding knife in my right) and doing the forearm/slide trick a split second later with the inside hand.

Whenever I tried to practice it, the way it did work out in my favor was it kept my hand away from the knife. By blocking higher on the arm away from the knife, instead of reaching directly for the wrist or hand, I never wound up grasping the blade of the knife, which seemed a distinct possibility if I tried to grab or intercept the hand/wrist directly. And sometimes I would deliberately misapply the technique by blocking a bit higher, against his tricep or upper arm, and sort of spinning him a few degrees away from me with the block. That sometimes bought me a second or two to do something else, and placed him at an angle where I could attack him at vulnerable places, but he had to reorient to defend against me or continue his attack.

This is the best I can remember from classes I took in high school in the late eighties. Only thing that really stuck with me was a conviction that it's preferable to engage a knife holding limb somewhere up away from the knife, at least at first, by checking the elbow or some other means.

[Regular Guy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... WH4L3QPnaQ

Sorry, I can't get this to embed. Anyway, who thinks they can do anything but an empty hand defense against this attack. Draw a pistol or knife? I'm not seeing it.

I don't think this is very technically proficient which means to me anyone could attempt this with very little training.

[the_alias]

Tip to embed is to use the long link from the share tab, ala so:

[jnathan]

By "I don't think this is very technically proficient..." were you referring to what's in the video or something else? I can't tell, so I don't want to make assumptions. The guy in the video is trained, he's studied some Kali and possibly Silat; that much is very obvious.

There are lots of theoretical ways to defend against some of that, the overwhelming majority of which result in the defender getting sliced and perforated. Drawing a pistol might be possible, bringing the barrel on target from that range would be incredibly difficult and I doubt all but the most highly trained could even come close. They might be better off using the pistol as a club. Among all the problems is that they need to first create enough room to fire and second to bring the barrel on target. Drawing a knife might be possible, and it might end the fight with the defender living, but certainly not without the defender still getting perforated.

Regardless of whether or not the defender defends empty handed, attempts to do so with a pistol or attempts to do so with a knife, they're going to get sliced and perforated.

-Jeff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=5WH4L3QPnaQ

Sorry, I can't get this to embed. Anyway, who thinks they can do anything but an empty hand defense against this attack. Draw a pistol or knife? I'm not seeing it.

I don't think this is very technically proficient which means to me anyone could attempt this with very little training.

[squinty]

By "I don't think this is very technically proficient..." were you referring to what's in the video or something else? I can't tell, so I don't want to make assumptions. The guy in the video is trained, he's studied some Kali and possibly Silat; that much is very obvious.

There are lots of theoretical ways to defend against some of that, the overwhelming majority of which result in the defender getting sliced and perforated. Drawing a pistol might be possible, bringing the barrel on target from that range would be incredibly difficult and I doubt all but the most highly trained could even come close. They might be better off using the pistol as a club. Among all the problems is that they need to first create enough room to fire and second to bring the barrel on target. Drawing a knife might be possible, and it might end the fight with the defender living, but certainly not without the defender still getting perforated.

Regardless of whether or not the defender defends empty handed, attempts to do so with a pistol or attempts to do so with a knife, they're going to get sliced and perforated.

-Jeff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=5WH4L3QPnaQ

Sorry, I can't get this to embed. Anyway, who thinks they can do anything but an empty hand defense against this attack. Draw a pistol or knife? I'm not seeing it.

I don't think this is very technically proficient which means to me anyone could attempt this with very little training.

I see getting the gun, knife, or other weapon out of the holster/sheath/wherever as being incredibly difficult and nigh impossible to do without being cut to ribbons, if your first move is to draw. I don't see getting the barrel on target as being especially difficult - press the muzzle into him and squeeze, or fire from a high retention position.

It would be best if you saw this guy coming, and didn't let him get that close to you.

If I were attacked this way the only thing I can think to do would be to die while blood sprayed from my carotid and ulnar arteries use an open hand technique to get him further away from me, if only for a second, and use that second to flee, or use that second to distance myself and draw a weapon. By "open hand technique" I mean something as simple as press checking his knife arm and chin palming him, or shoving or kicking him away. I don't see me, at my current level of expertise, taking him down or disarming or pinning him, or controlling his knife, for very long. So continuing to fight empty handed is right out as a strategy. Punch, push, sweep, kick, or something very simple to create breathing room to flee or produce and use a more effective weapon.

Edited for spelling - meant "out" but typed "put"

[PackLemming]

Spitting in the offenders eye or thrusting one hand into his/her vision or better yet like the motion used for picking up a bowling ball driving your fingers into his/her orbital sockets while your other free hand seeks out the offenders knife wielding hand can prove possible assault stopping technique. If the attacker is blinded, preferably at range his/her contact weapon loses all its advantages.

[Regular Guy]

By "I don't think this is very technically proficient..." were you referring to what's in the video or something else? I can't tell, so I don't want to make assumptions. The guy in the video is trained, he's studied some Kali and possibly Silat; that much is very obvious.

What I meant by not technically proficient is that style is not that difficult to instruct or perform. Basically, I believe, since I've taught it that anyone can do it. Meaning that it's so easy that practice should be performed to counter it. Another point I attempted to make is that it's so fast and brutal I really can't see any counter to it using a gun.

[Regular Guy]

Spitting in the offenders eye

Are you kidding? If you spit at someone you all but guarantee a fight. The whole point is to avoid a fight, especially one with knives.

If the attacker is blinded, preferably at range his/her contact weapon loses all its advantages.

Don't count on it. We have practiced no light/low light self defense and with a knife, it is still effective because if the BG is in contact, he just keeps swinging. If you make any noise what so ever the BG can use his auditory senses to locate you. You poke someone in the eyes, they maybe very pissed about it.

[PackLemming]

Spitting in the offenders eye

Are you kidding? If you spit at someone you all but guarantee a fight. The whole point is to avoid a fight, especially one with knives.

If someone is pointing a knife at my face, torso, pelvis I predict much more than a fight is about to happen.

If the attacker is blinded, preferably at range his/her contact weapon loses all its advantages.

Don't count on it. We have practiced no light/low light self defense and with a knife, it is still effective because if the BG is in contact, he just keeps swinging. If you make any noise what so ever the BG can use his auditory senses to locate you. You poke someone in the eyes, they maybe very pissed about it.

Practice does not induce pain, pain induces responses that are hard wired into the brain, its one thing to train your body to ignore the damage to your fists while hitting the heavy bag and another thing to ignore the damage caused by someone creating wormholes with their fingers down and into your eye sockets.

[Regular Guy]

Good luck grabbing a knife wielding attacker with two hands after you spit in his eye.

[PackLemming]

Good luck grabbing a knife wielding attacker with two hands after you spit in his eye.

Well you see Regular Guy if it gets hairy enough that I am spitting like a dehydrated camel at the offender, luck really is no longer on my side at that point I will do as Gunny Instructor Hartman insists, "Gouge out your eyeballs and skull ***k you" win or lose in that scenario I will have modified my assailant for life and ruined his/her chance to escape the scene of the crime, also if I some how survive the attack and I manage to blind the offender in one eye and am quick enough to grapple with the knife hand I will take liberty to urinate into his/her destroyed orbital socket when that knife is added to my own personal collection.

The point I am trying to stress here, is if your truly screwed and you think you are about to meet your maker your objective should be to remove the possibility of your offender getting away with the deed.

[Regular Guy]

Sounds like bravado over skill.

To quote Murph: "Good thing movies are just like real life."