Dealing with a knife threat

[flsgear]

To the above poster - thank you. As a IPMAF Kombatan instructor this is something I can speak about pretty freely with competence and I will definitely second most of the names listed above. All of their stuff is must know/must learn no matter what martial art you subscribe to. Much respect to Red zone, STAB and of course Guru Denny. TBH I don't know Paul Sharp or Janich but I'll check their stuff out later when I get home.

The example video was a 'singer attack' - that's where the attacker comes in like a singer sewing machine, rushing forward and stabbing repeatedly. It was pretty much refined on the prison circuit as I understand it and it's highly effective.

Defense against it is completely about making distance. Standing there with your coat out for defense is not something I think I'd ever teach. Actually I think my usual first defensive move taught to students about knife fighting is the reebok or sneaker defense - i.e. start running. Most of them start laughing but the truth is that the 21 foot 'rule' exists for a reason. If a knife is already in play and your weapon isn't drawn then there's a good chance you're at a huge disadvantage. Your best bet is to make as much distance as possible and use your limbs if necessary to protect your vital organs. If you can grab their hand, go for a keylock/the STAB method and you can use that powerful two on one grip to control the knife hand.. assuming you're unarmed and are in a position to grab it. There's a reason that the highest echelons of Arnis are "empty hand vs guy with a weapon" - because it is seriously difficult. I've been doing Arnis (not to mention judo, boxing, & karate) for over 12 years and I don't feel comfortable in that situation yet. Especially if they're even semi-competent with a knife.

Your best friend is awareness of your surroundings. Don't get caught off guard and you negate 99% of the attackers advantage in initiative. Be mobile, keep your distance, etc.

If it ends up on the ground you are in serious SERIOUS trouble. There's nowhere to run, and that knife can have the minimum distance necessary to inflict maximum harm. Controlling the knife hand becomes more difficult as well, moreso if you're on the bottom.

My kind of thread, thanks OP!

[madwolf]

The rule of distance really is the key here, firstly though, you need to understand this: You will get stabbed or cut, I don't care who you are, or how good.

As someone who has been stabbed on three occasions and cut quite a few times in fights (I grew up in Detroit) and also as a martial arts instructor with 31 years of training I can truthfully attest to how awful a knife attack can be.

Most often, they happen very, very quickly like in the the video in the top post. You don't have time to think, or plan, or strategize. You only have time to react.

The only technique I've found to be effective so far is what we refer to as the "get the fuck away from me" kick. It's a simple forward snap kick, anyone can do it without training. Think "door kicker" kick. Get a few feet between you, get a little room and answer with the most aggressive and most violent counter attack you can manage. Be it a snap shot from the waist with your CCW if your fast enough to an eye jab with your fingers, your response had better be decisive.

Even this is not going to keep you from being cut, I was stabbed in the thigh doing this exact thing, but it did give me the breathing room to come up with a more effective response.

Just be aware and be prepared for being stabbed or cut, the chances of you getting away without either is infinitesimaly small.

[by-the-throat]

There has been some good material on this thread and I haven't even seen the videos or pictures.

I concur that control of the knife is desirable, but remember, that might not be his only knife or that might not even be the only guy. We all get warned about tunnel vision, witnesses describing a weapon in detail but being fuzzy about the attacker's face. So reserve a portion of your mental runtime for threats beyond the knife hand you are currently grabbing.

That said, it is easy to say "grip the knife hand" and harder to do it. A lot of training has a fully committed knife plunge with a step through or some carefully orchestrated "psycho" reverse grip stab. The skilled and ruthless attacker will attack a dozen times in the space it takes to rehearse one "step through, 4 point wristlock and arm drag to disarm." You don't need a lot of force with the knife so you don't have to chamber it much; a good sharp knife cuts without a wind up. So grabbing the knife hand can be kind of like catching a cracked out dragonfly covered in tiny chainsaws. Try it with a marker sometime (against a determined attacker) and you will see.

A no wind up side kick to shin level would be my initial response to any rush at that distance, a knife rush or otherwise. It probably won't injure your attacker but it gives you a chance to interrupt the rush, get inside his decision cycle, and hopefully give you time to clear your own weapon, whatever that may be.

[H. neanderthalensis]

"There's usually an escalation of events leading to an attack. It starts with shouting, then insults and profanity. It continues with posturing and displays of dominance (getting in your face, getting much closer beyond normal social boundaries). These displays escalate further when your opponent puffs up to appear larger and tenses his muscles, claps his hands, clenches his fists, and hops around a little or becomes jumpy. At this point an attack may be imminent.

If you had a gun, at what point would you have drawn your weapon?

It's important to read an opponent's body language and demeanor. Anger is a distraction and a cunning opponent knows this so don't lose focus. Don't get pulled into his argument.

No gun in your hand?

Prepare to fight to the death. There is no honor or chivalry in combat so don't hesitate to fight dirty. Pull hair, bite, choke, pop an eye out, etc. Show no mercy because your opponent won't show you any. And do what is necessary to survive: PT (exercise)."

Words of wisdom spoken by my hand-to-hand (MCMAP) combat instructor whilst serving in the USMC.

[Smü]

With my limited knowledge, I would like to add something regarding the issue of "grabbing the knive hand".

1) A knife works in multiple angles which include the possibility to carve into your gripping hand and arm with only a slight adaption of the angle of the edge or tip.

2) A commited and / or comptetent attacker will not only attack with his knife but with the remaining hand, elbow, knees, feet or what other tools of harm are at hand.

This doesn't put any light on how to deal with a knifer, but is something to keep in mind when training (counter-)knife techniques IMHO.

Edited for spelling and such.

[bigmattdaddywack]

I would die. It was immediate and that guy had his guard down. I am not an MMA, Krav Maga, knife fighter, or Chopper Read kind of guy. He got the guy and killed him.

[M14fan]

Rule # 1 Avoid knife fights
Rule # 2 If attacked by knife wielding bad guy, understand and accept that you are going to bleed no matter what you do
Rule # 3 Now that you are past fear of bleeding, employ whatever is the most effective tool/technique you have to terminate the knife fight (not espousing any specific technique)
Rule # 4 If you are not dead get help, you are probably bleeding somewhere
Rule # 5 If you survive, work harder at adherence to Rule # 1

[flsgear]

Whenever I think of bad knife defense, I think of this:



The sad thing is this more closely resembles real training than many people realize

Also grabbing the knife hand is incredibly difficult, in case I wasn't clear in my previous post - which I thought I was.
On the note of the front snap/front kick - I've had decent success with this to but it's definitely not my go-to. I should also mention front-kicking someone's hand when they hold the knife can go .. unpredictably. That knife has a tendency to go some weird directions when it gets loose.

My go-to is get the fuck out or make distance until I can get draw my own weapon. It's part of the reason I won't go anywhere without my knife/pistol. A person making a committed knife attack is in a different state of mind than someone using a gun to do it. They are willing to get up close and personal to hurt you - so I personally prefer not to be under-armed against an attacker who's that hell-bent on hurting me/my loved ones. Keep it simple; there's a lot of people out there that teach these elaborate moves but in a real struggle you tend to remember the only really simple stuff.

Also the 'you will get cut' mentality - TBH if they don't say this the first day of knife training, then they're not competent, imo. The question is not if you will get cut, but moreover WHERE. Part of a knife fight is prioritizing what gets cut. I.e. I'll let you cut my hand I cut your arm, you cut my arm so I can cut your throat, etc. Or sometimes it's just survival. Like oh sh*t, he's coming in for a kill shot on my neck, I'm going to sacrifice my hand so I don't get killed.

[bigmattdaddywack]

Reminded me of this

[flsgear]

Touche!

[Werespaz]

Here's a good exercise to try next time you have a willing training partner.

The scenario is as such: You've just been in a car accident, you've gotten out of your car and see the other driver has also gotten out of theirs. You pull out your phone and call 9-1-1. You're looking around for the nearest cross street signs and the other driver is walking up to you. Because you're a bit shaken up and distracted you don't noticed that he's pissed because he thinks the accident is completely your fault (doesn't matter if really is or not), he closes in on you and you assume it's to trade insurance information, so you're not facing him directly. He gets within about 4 feet and flicks open a folding knife right before a slice or stab to the mid section.

So, to practice this, get something approximately cell-phone shaped and hold it to your ear. It's important to have a physical object. Put your other hand on top of your head (a standard stress reaction is to run your hand through your hear or rub your temples). Put your back to a wall (this plays the part of your car) and have your traning partner approach from a slightly oblique angle, give a "flick" with their training knife and try to stab or slice your midsection repeatedly. Their goal is to use as much force and put up as much resistance as possible without causing actual injury.

This drill completely opened my eyes to how dumb and impractical our knife "techniques" were in our system.

Try different things and see what works. For more informative results, get a white long sleeve t-shirt and have them use a marker.

[flsgear]

Ah yes I as going to put something up about marker drills but I felt like it might seem too silly to people who haven't done it :O

But yeah.. that's a nasty scenario! Road rage after an accident while you're not paying attention ;/

[drewder]

Yeah because pulling a gun there would have solved all his problems...

Best part of the video is at the end when the knifer walks away all happy and Bronson like after he owned the other guy.

Lots of great info here that I never knew.

[Jeriah]

Knife attacks scare the shit out of me. That's all I have to contribute at the moment.

[Werespaz]

Knife attacks scare the shit out of me. That's all I have to contribute at the moment.

Before I started training in martial arts (and before I started shooting), I was way more afraid of guns than knives. Now, it's the complete opposite. They completely scare the shit out of me too.

[flsgear]

*puts nerd hat on*
What's the old klingon proverb?
"Four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man."

[Tribunal Power]

An offshoot thread was started about something I said and I didn't notice for two pages.

Unfortunately if someone wants to stab you as badly as the guy in the OP's vid, you're getting stabbed. Obviously you need to know how to stop a threat without a weapon, especially when you're carrying-- retention training is important. But if someone three feet away wants to stab you and goes batshit like that guy did, martial arts isn't going to do you much more good than your concealed gun. That's why you shouldn't let people in your personal space. Still, there wasn't much that victim could have done. Sometimes, you're just screwed.

I was mostly saying that these situations are reasons people should carry. I wasn't trashing MA or saying no one should learn hand-to-hand. I just meant that karate alone is not an appropriate level of training when you're talking lethal force.

[flsgear]

FYI knife fights totally look like this..



Actually since I'm on a movie/video kick.. this is one of my favorite series of Arnis movie knife fights:
The hunted (tom brown consulted on this, and they used pekiti tirsia as the martial art- a form of arnis)


The man from nowwhere - showey (looks like tapi-tapi, but awesome knife fight. Hell.. awesome movie.


And of course the pen vs punch dagger scene in Bourne identity:


RE: Tribunal -
Agreed, sometimes you're just screwed. But situational awareness is your ally in this case. Most predators like to get up close - your objective is to be aware enough to avoid them getting that close unnoticed. If they do, you have to make as much distance as possible, any way you can.

[raptor]

"There's usually an escalation of events leading to an attack. It starts with shouting, then insults and profanity. It continues with posturing and displays of dominance (getting in your face, getting much closer beyond normal social boundaries). These displays escalate further when your opponent puffs up to appear larger and tenses his muscles, claps his hands, clenches his fists, and hops around a little or becomes jumpy. At this point an attack may be imminent.

If you had a gun, at what point would you have drawn your weapon?

It's important to read an opponent's body language and demeanor. Anger is a distraction and a cunning opponent knows this so don't lose focus. Don't get pulled into his argument.

An interesting point.

I always say never bring a knife a gun fight and honestly I have in the past have never considered a knife adequate for my self defense. However, conversely I have always considered a knife a lethal weapon and the sight of a knife in hand is one of my trigger points (literally speaking) for the use of a CCW.

I will always try to put distance between me and a possible assailant...IF possible...and IF I am aware of the possibility of attack.

The thing is, a sudden and aggressive attack as in the "sewing machine attack" above is IMO not preventable. That was determined attacker and in this case only lethal or overwhelming force would have stopped that attack.

[Tribunal Power]

Rule # 1 Avoid knife fights
Rule # 2 If attacked by knife wielding bad guy, understand and accept that you are going to bleed no matter what you do
Rule # 3 Now that you are past fear of bleeding, employ whatever is the most effective tool/technique you have to terminate the knife fight (not espousing any specific technique)
Rule # 5 If you are not dead get help, you are probably bleeding somewhere
Rule # 6 If you survive, work harder at adherence to Rule # 1

Also, this.

While I stick to what I said, I do want to clarify that I consider some rudimentary self defense skills to be part of firearms training. You need to know how to defend yourself before and while deploying a firearm. Otherwise you could get shot with your own gun.

[phil_in_cs]

Many instructors (Tom Sotis and Crafty Dog, at least) have told me that 75% or more of the time a person doesn't know he's in a knife fight until he's been cut. Knives are very easy to have out and ready, but still concealed. That's a reason the "default position" Crafty Dog and other teachers use has the assumption that the incoming blow might have a knife embedded in it.

Keeping distance is all well and good, but that can be very difficult on sidewalks and in shopping areas.

[bigmattdaddywack]

This is still my number one plan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KwMK78idpA&feature=related
If not possible then I improv.

[raptor]

This is still my number one plan
[YouTube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2yt ... re=related [/YouTube]
If not possible then I improv.

Fixed that for you.

Yes this is my argument for not bringing a knife to a gun fight.

That said if the swordsman had concealed his sword and closed to within 10 feet for an aggressive attack rather than dancing around, the scene would have been very different.

[bigmattdaddywack]

This is still my number one plan
[YouTube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2yt ... re=related [/YouTube]
If not possible then I improv.

Fixed that for you.

It was not working. Tried a bunch of times.
thanks