Dealing with a knife threat

[PackLemming]

Fine, Ill tell you the only technique to cope with a knife threat. This secret I learned from a wizened green midget that lives in the hills of California, he is currently voting for the ban of all guns in order to deal with the gun threat at hand. But I digress...

Your pretty much screwed unless you have puncture and slash resistant barrier's or clothing. I stand by my suicidal eyeball corkscrewing technique as a mans last stand.

[Murph]

Thanks PackLemming! Now that you've said your piece, I don't see any reason why you'll need to keep posting in this thread.

[Regular Guy]

Solely because Blade Runner is one of my favorite films. This scene is absolutely not about killing someone by jamming their eyes into their skull.

Tyrell, the guy that created Roy and the other 'skin jobs', is the fellow being killed. However, it's a symbolic death. Roy, his creation, has come back to ask why did you design me to die. Like the creation questioning death. Roy and other synthetics had a 4 year life span because, just like humans, they develop emotions, awareness and self awareness at around 4 years. Once you have a self aware entity it's difficult to control them especially when you've designed them to be superior to yourself.

Now, Tyrell had a vision of a army of skin jobs that would do all the work for the humans but with finite life spans. Roy was Tyrell's vision and Roy found this vision repugnant. Roy had great anger since he could not control his emotions like a mature adult. Roy found this vision so repugnant he did not want this 'vision of the future' to be real. So Roy pressed Tyrell's eyes back into his brain. A symbolic gesture of trying to put the genie back into the bottle. Smashing the vision back into the mind that created it.

By the way, Decker was a skin job too.

[PackLemming]

Well here we talk about security and I have some experience in crisis management so I just peck my keyboard when the dots join up and have an opinion to share, If we listen to the so called street smart Metropolitan Police on this primal fear arousing subject, how to avert the knife offense we are lead to believe that they get by with the creation of layered security, that is both tiered in the Private (non Metro) & Public (Metro) sector, this also follows with focused/concentrated efforts at trouble spots filled with problematic personalities. They advocate use of metal detection arches, stop and search powers with on the spot arrest warrants, harder penalties for the offenders which are found to be in the process of breaking 'offensive weapon laws', closer community liaison efforts....yadda yadda yadda.... All of which does the individual no good when the moment of truth puts it all to the test.



What is also to be understood by the individual, the potential defendant is that the Powers.That.Be accept rather coolly that corpses will carry on appearing with or without holes in them till the proverbial cows come home not least because there is a lack of security resources allocated to one zone or another but simply because victims of crime are far too naive & trusting towards their fellow man on the street's intentions.

[Murph]

MUST.NOT.FEED.TROLL.

[raptor]

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Back on topic...stay away from people with knives.

[Murph]

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Back on topic...stay away from people with knives.

Nicely done.

[RickOShea]

You mean a 40-foot bullwhip isn't a good BOB weapon, either?

I'm so screwed!

6' to 10' whip with a 1' piece of piano wire on the end, instead of the nylon popper.

[Zombie309]

Haven't read this thread yet but here's my two cents. If you're dealing with an attacked with a knife and you're within seven yards of them you will get stuck at some point so get over that point and keep yourself in the fight. The best way I've been taught is to circle away from the attacker, DO NOT back up in a straight line. If you have a firearm get to it drawn as quickly as possible and keep putting lead down range. If you do not and you think you can outrun you're attacker then go for it. Again, if you wind up in a fight over the knife you will get cut, but try to keep control of the wrist holding the knife to minimize the damage. It should be common sense but as soon as you are in close and fighting over that knife it is time to get EXTREMELY fucking violent. Crotch shots, biting, and headbutts to the bridge of the nose (if possible) are your friends in this situation.

[Murph]

Haven't read this thread yet but here's my two cents. If you're dealing with an attacked with a knife and you're within seven yards of them you will get stuck at some point so get over that point and keep yourself in the fight. The best way I've been taught is to circle away from the attacker, DO NOT back up in a straight line. If you have a firearm get to it drawn as quickly as possible and keep putting lead down range. If you do not and you think you can outrun you're attacker then go for it. Again, if you wind up in a fight over the knife you will get cut, but try to keep control of the wrist holding the knife to minimize the damage. It should be common sense but as soon as you are in close and fighting over that knife it is time to get EXTREMELY fucking violent. Crotch shots, biting, and headbutts to the bridge of the nose (if possible) are your friends in this situation.

You should really read the thread. I think you'd find it very informative, and possibly learn something.

[Smü]

[youtube link]
I don't think this is very technically proficient which means to me anyone could attempt this with very little training.

It's a Silat / Kali mash up, which, in the variant shown in that video, needs little training indeed. Although the second guy uses some unusual angles that need a lot of training focusing on attacker's body placement and proper stances.

Here you can see some stuff that's really not technically proficient, this is from the "no fancy training needed" department, quoting from the Tueller Drill thread:



Although the guy is marketed as being a SEAL, nothing he does is "special" in any way, just violence and determination. Two qualities commonly found in criminals who don't care much for McDojo-Kung-Fu badassery.

I want to stress something, that I didn't really find in this thread: The title of this thread is "dealing with a knife threat". From what I know, if you get threatened with a knife, your chances of surviving the threat have increased significantly. A knife is no weapon to intimidate someone like with a gun. With a gun, you can point it at someone and tell him/her to back off, lay down or whatever. This won't work with a knife, for several reasons, one of which is the lack to inflict pain and injury from a distance.

Hence: A blade is a surprise attack weapon. You know the other dude has a knife when he punched you three times, your breathing gets shorter and you feel the urge to sit down, wondering why your rib cage on your left feels wet.

I've never been or have attacked with a knife, but I have seen some fucked up shit involving people getting cut and stabbed. In case you are threatened with a knife, this I know, you have gotten a chance and your best bet it to create distance and buy yourself time to do whatever countermeasure you are most proficient with. Be it running, throwing random environmental objects or running the knife dude over with your truck, the latter being my personal favourite. Maybe even get your own weapon ready. There are too many variables in a "Knife wielding guy"-scenario to have a simple answer. Although there have been some very interesting and insightful replies.

[TDW586]

I love that clip. They comment on the lack of "technique" on that episode as if it's a negative. In reality (which Deadliest Warrior is of course completely divorced from) "big-ass jacked dude amping himself up and Hulkin' tha fuck out" is a technique which has probably won more fights than any other.

Defend against that kind of attack with any technique, and without a little bit of Hulkin' out of your own, I'm not betting on you.

[Smü]

Defend against that kind of attack with any technique, and without a little bit of Hulkin' out of you're own, I'm not betting on you.

I dare say: There is no way of really "defending" against an attack like that, like there is no way of defending against a bullet fired at you (let's leave plate carriers and vests out of the game atm). Taking that video as an example, it is way past the point of defending.

You can defend against the threat, but hardly against the attack.

YMMV, my 2 cents et al.

[TDW586]

That's actually the point I was trying to make, Smu, I wasn't very clear. Drive, aggression, and physical fitness combined with a single-minded determination to jam that blade in until the target/victim stops moving makes for a damn formidable attack.

[Regular Guy]

I dare say: There is no way of really "defending" against an attack like that.

I firmly disagree. There are two techniques that would be very effective. Those attack motions are predictable. All that is necessary is either sweep it to the inside or the outside and move off line. Throw a strike to the groin, knee to the kidney, volleyball strike to the nose, etc. I'm not saying this is fool proof or you're not going to get cut but it is defensible. It's like saying you can't defend against someone punching you in the stomach, totally defendable.

Lots of people threaten with knives. It's how they get cash, compliance, etc. I believe just a ambush knife attack is rare unless the person is known to the attacker.

[squinty]

I dare say: There is no way of really "defending" against an attack like that.

I firmly disagree. There are two techniques that would be very effective. Those attack motions are predictable. All that is necessary is either sweep it to the inside or the outside and move off line. Throw a strike to the groin, knee to the kidney, volleyball strike to the nose, etc. I'm not saying this is fool proof or you're not going to get cut but it is defensible. It's like saying you can't defend against someone punching you in the stomach, totally defendable.

Lots of people threaten with knives. It's how they get cash, compliance, etc. I believe just a ambush knife attack is rare unless the person is known to the attacker.

The SEAL knife video Smu posted and the "X bajillion cuts in 30 seconds" video you posted, RG, both sort of turn my stomach. They are nice graphic representations of how painful and damaging a blade attack can be, and how difficult it will be to cope with successfully.

The only consolation I can take away from them is, I'm not a mannequin. Unlike the mannequin, I can fight back - whether I have the determination, skill or presence of mind to do so effectively is another matter.

I have threatened people with knives before - thwarted a strong arm robbery attempt by palming a Spyderco Co-Pilot. Wasn't intending to brandish it, I intended to use it but I believe one of the men saw what I was doing because he immediately got polite and started to pull his companion away from me. Another example of a situation where, had things gone from threatening to actual violence, I would have lost. A one inch blade against two bigger guys with weapons of their own = dead Squinty. But sometimes just the fact that you are willing to resist at all is enough to dissuade a rational, opportunistic attacker. Not always, but often enough to be worth a try.


In court yesterday I heard a prosecutor describe a near classic "duel" with knives. Two men - longtime friends, sometime rivals - were drinking and playing cards at a house with other friends and GFs, late into the night. Someone said something, someone else took offense, nobody wanted to back down, the argument got physical and was "taken outside."

Outside the two men squared off. One man (described, somewhat incredibly, as "the victim" by prosecutors) pulled out a folding knife and displayed it to the other, saying "you sure you want this?" The other man (the "defendant") replied that yes, thank you, he did want it - and produced, and displayed, his own very similar folding knife. Whereupon the first man (the "victim") supposedly closed his own knife and replaced it in his pocket, before attacking the other man (the "defendant") with his fists!
The defendant, knife still out, stabbed his opponent twice in the torso. The stabbed man went down clutching his wound, and the stabber asked him "is that enough?" The stabbee replied "I'm done." The stabber, suddenly remorseful, urged other people in the house to call 911, both men stayed on the scene and gave remarkably similar accounts of the conflict to police, as did various witnesses.

The prosecutor, giving his rationale for the generous plea bargain he was offering the stabber, described the stabber's actions as "almost perfect self defense." That's the prosecutor, describing the actions for which he wanted to imprison a man.

I'm perfectly ok with the guy going to prison, myself. I just don't see any self defense claim at all in either man's actions - it was a mutually agreed upon combat that both parties eagerly sought. Neither tried to get away or defuse in any meaningful way. The judge described the stabber's decision to relent once his opponent was helpless as a "mitigating factor" - suggesting that in his experience a more typical response would have been to fall on the injured man and continue stabbing him.

I don't know what "the victim" was thinking. Was he ultimately unwilling to stab the other guy because they were friends, and he was starting to regret the argument? Perhaps he had hoped that a sufficient show of force would forestall actual violence. It did not. Often a display of force is an escalating factor. Know when to know when.

Perhaps he was trying to make a point. Perhaps he intended to display his contempt for his opponent by demonstrating that he didn't need a weapon of his own to take the other guy down. The fight was largely fought, I have a hunch, for the benefit of an audience - if the two had been arguing privately they might have been able to back down and still save face. But they were part of a subculture who's members have little faith in the law, thus have little respect for it, so an old fashioned "culture of honor" prevails, with all it's attendant stupidity. One fact belies my hunch, which is the fact that the stabber - the "defendant" stayed on scene and urged people to call 911. Perhaps he mistakenly believed he would be cleared of charges, ie that his actions really were self defense.

[Regular Guy]

Since I mention footwork a lot. Here's some basics:




One coach mentions anyone can throw a punch but movement will put you into or out of position to punch or avoid one.

[TheLastOne]

Those Roach's fundamental vids are great RG. Thanks.