Dealing with a knife threat

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Murph » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:31 pm

Com'on people, this is not the chat thread, let's be serious here. :?
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by bigmattdaddywack » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:34 pm

I am serious. Shoot them if you can, if not fight like hell.


Wait!!!!

HAS ANYONE HERE EVER BEEN IN A KNIFE FIGHT?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejd2rsXoQSI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grq0rhtbtAw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by raptor » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:39 pm

Madwolf posted that he has first hand experience.
madwolf wrote:The rule of distance really is the key here, firstly though, you need to understand this: You will get stabbed or cut, I don't care who you are, or how good.

As someone who has been stabbed on three occasions and cut quite a few times in fights (I grew up in Detroit) and also as a martial arts instructor with 31 years of training I can truthfully attest to how awful a knife attack can be.

Most often, they happen very, very quickly like in the the video in the top post. You don't have time to think, or plan, or strategize. You only have time to react.

The only technique I've found to be effective so far is what we refer to as the "get the fuck away from me" kick. It's a simple forward snap kick, anyone can do it without training. Think "door kicker" kick. Get a few feet between you, get a little room and answer with the most aggressive and most violent counter attack you can manage. Be it a snap shot from the waist with your CCW if your fast enough to an eye jab with your fingers, your response had better be decisive.

Even this is not going to keep you from being cut, I was stabbed in the thigh doing this exact thing, but it did give me the breathing room to come up with a more effective response.

Just be aware and be prepared for being stabbed or cut, the chances of you getting away without either is infinitesimaly small.

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Murph » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:41 pm

Yup, shoot them, shoot them all. :roll:

bigmattdaddywack, have you read any of this thread? Or just looking for an excuse to shit things up with your teenage humor?
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
"When planning, prepare for the most likely, and then the most catastrophic."
raptor wrote: Being a gun collector does not make you a prepper.
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by bigmattdaddywack » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:43 pm

raptor wrote:Madwolf posted that he has first hand experience.
madwolf wrote:The rule of distance really is the key here, firstly though, you need to understand this: You will get stabbed or cut, I don't care who you are, or how good.

As someone who has been stabbed on three occasions and cut quite a few times in fights (I grew up in Detroit) and also as a martial arts instructor with 31 years of training I can truthfully attest to how awful a knife attack can be.

Most often, they happen very, very quickly like in the the video in the top post. You don't have time to think, or plan, or strategize. You only have time to react.

The only technique I've found to be effective so far is what we refer to as the "get the fuck away from me" kick. It's a simple forward snap kick, anyone can do it without training. Think "door kicker" kick. Get a few feet between you, get a little room and answer with the most aggressive and most violent counter attack you can manage. Be it a snap shot from the waist with your CCW if your fast enough to an eye jab with your fingers, your response had better be decisive.

Even this is not going to keep you from being cut, I was stabbed in the thigh doing this exact thing, but it did give me the breathing room to come up with a more effective response.

Just be aware and be prepared for being stabbed or cut, the chances of you getting away without either is infinitesimaly small.
:oops:
OK. I feel the fool.
His advice seems very sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejd2rsXoQSI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grq0rhtbtAw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Gingerbread Man » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:43 pm

bigmattdaddywack wrote:I am serious. Shoot them if you can, if not fight like hell.


Wait!!!!

HAS ANYONE HERE EVER BEEN IN A KNIFE FIGHT?
Yes, but I didn't have a knife. I was attacked in downtown San Antonio, TX on a very late night skateboarding adventure. There were 3 of us vs about 8 gang banger wanna bes. 3-5 had knives and we used our skateboards as shields. They just kept stabbing at the boards as we held them up. We all just got tired of it at the same time and went ballistic with our boards. I have no idea how long this melee took place but it was a while. My buddy got slashed in the back and we licked a couple with our boards. Sucked. I guess they either got tired or whatever but they just kind of stopped walking off talking shit to us in Spanish. My buddy had about 5-6 stitches.

Being punk rock and a skateboarder used to be dangerous. :lol:
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Tribunal Power » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:21 pm

I've been on the wrong end if a knife before too. I have the scars to prove it. I'm very lucky I came out as well as I did. It was during my time in IL so I had no ccw at the time. The first time, I had no idea what was happening until I got cut. It was a random attack and the was very little reaction time. He lunged at me, we fought, I knocked him down and ran away. Once I was safe I realized he'd gouged me pretty good in the gut but it was sorta a glancing blow and through clothing with a cheap Swiss army knife.

The second time, I was jumped by some thugs in a car, also seemingly random. There were three, one with a bat and one with a knife. I took a slash to the forearm and my knee will remember that bat til I die. I was lucky that the guys were hesitant about becoming murderers, and it gave me time and room to fight them off and get away.

After the second time, I made the decision to never be unarmed. If I were confronted by that situation now, I would open fire. The second time, I had plenty of time to react-- they took time in stoping the car and trapping and intimidating me. Unfortunately I had nothing to defend myself with.

I could be dead right now cuz of those two events. I'm not. As such, I won't be counting on luck when the third time rolls around.

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Fr33M@s0n » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:03 am

I won't lie. I watched the video at the top and immediately scrolled to post a reply without reading the rest of the posts. (as an air traffic control student I don't have much patience).

The true art of self defense is knowing when you will have to defend yourself before the attacker knows he will attack you. This is done thru facial expressions and body language. If you see someone you perceive as a threat you should begin to bug out immediately. If getting away from the situation isn't possible, then you should put yourself in as best of a defense position as possible. Your Alamo persay. (assuming the US didn't lose at the Alamo).

As a person with situational awareness you should be able to see a threat before they know you see them.

My girlfriend (soon to be fiance) will say I am paranoid and I pay more attention to the people around me than her.. :?

The truth of the matter is i do my best to perceive a threat before it becomes a threat. Also part of being an ATC student and my background in American and Chinese Kenpo along with Grappling and Krav Maga and growing up with cops as parents. Enough about me.

Sure, a knife attack happens quick, but if you are doing your job reading people and perceiving threats, by the time he goes for his knife you would have your hand on your ccw ready to defend yourself or the people you're with, if you didn't have an exit option.

End Rant.

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by phil_in_cs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:09 am

1. Today being Alamo day, it is a good time to point out they all died. Every last one. That's not a good example for self defense.
2. As a Texan, I will point out the United States was not involved at the Alamo.
3. All Criminal Attacks are ambushes. Sure, you need to be aware. But if a squad of Marines walking a combat patrol in enemy territory can get ambushed, so can you. Learn Action on Contact drills, just like the Marines.
Don't confuse a belligerent and aggressive attitude with the strength, training, and conditioning needed to prevail in a fight. How do you know you have the Will To Win, if you don't even have the will to train?

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Cherokee John » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:51 pm

Kali Escrima has a good approach to knife fighting:



I studied a bit of this in the P.I. from an old "sparrow" -(that's a hired gunman). There aren't too many old bodyguards in the P.I. His empty hand techs were also very dirty and effective. The Philipinos have an active knife and gun culture. They train in both.

The MMA guys are great at what they do. But the Escrima guys do the same throws, holds, take downs, pressure point attacks with THE EDGE OF A KNIFE BLADE.



BTW I didn't like the example of the multiple opponent attack in the above video. The attackers seemed staged and the defender was very stiff in moving and his footwork was dodgy. I've seen better Kali examples.

I've been trained in basic sentry removal but I thought the Kali stuff had a more comprehensive approach to attacking people with a knife.

I'm studying Krav Maga twice a week currently and its fun for an old guy like me. It's a good simple way to get the basics and then just practice, practice, practice. I recommend it. It deals directly with gun and knife threats a lot better than other martial arts.

I've been attacked 3 times with a knife. The first time I was very young and untrained- I was hurt my attacker wasn't . The second incident was about 15 years ago against a Chinese gangster with a fixed blade. I had lots of training. I lost the use of two fingers-my attacker lost an ear and tons of blood. I disarmed him and disabled him. (I was pretty drunk at the time.) :oops: The third incident was a single attacker with a folding knife in a confined area neither of us were seriously hurt and I disarmed the attacker with a kali technique and used a judo choke to KO him. This was two years ago and it was someone I knew who wanted to really hurt me. (Angry father of my ex- girlfriend)
I have only studied judo for a year. I was on the judo team at a college in Asia almost 18 years ago and my body still remembered how to do the standing choke. Previous to that I had had a lot of training in other stuff.

Having a mental game plan is important. The rest is practice.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard people at home say "Well I'd just pull out my sidearm and shoot you!" I'd be flying supermodels around the world in my private jet. You don't always have your piece. You always carry your mind and hands.
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Cherokee John » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:01 am

Regular Guy wrote:
bigmattdaddywack wrote:I am serious. Shoot them if you can, if not fight like hell.


Wait!!!!

HAS ANYONE HERE EVER BEEN IN A KNIFE FIGHT?
Yes, but I didn't have a knife. I was attacked in downtown San Antonio, TX on a very late night skateboarding adventure. There were 3 of us vs about 8 gang banger wanna bes. 3-5 had knives and we used our skateboards as shields. They just kept stabbing at the boards as we held them up. We all just got tired of it at the same time and went ballistic with our boards. I have no idea how long this melee took place but it was a while. My buddy got slashed in the back and we licked a couple with our boards. Sucked. I guess they either got tired or whatever but they just kind of stopped walking off talking shit to us in Spanish. My buddy had about 5-6 stitches.

Being punk rock and a skateboarder used to be dangerous. :lol:
Hey I know those guys!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjw1RnCB ... re=related
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Smü » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:51 am

I'd like to point out the significant difference between the first video and pretty much all videos showing "knife fighting techniques". While I admire and respect the amount of training and knowledge shown by the people in the Kali video for example, there are some things to consider IMvHO:

- Attackers attack once. No repeated attempts to get the pointy end in
- most of the time, the attacker freezes after his initial attack

These are the two main things that differ from the OP's video, but I'd like to have some more things listed, if I may:

- Attackers attack with the knife only. No kicks, grabs or clawing to diffuse the main weapon
- In some cases, the defender has a knife and excessively (sp) uses it (because the attacker politely freezes), see point no.2. This is a special thing to consider as this implies that you (as the defender) already have your knife ready and await the attack. This might apply to a certain set of scenarios, but might end fuzzy when confronted by law authorities.
- Speaking of which: I have seen two techniques in the Kali vid that would end in a manslaughter trial against the defender. Attacker is already restrained and incapable of moving and the defender then applies some sort of "finishing move", slashing and stabbing vital spots. Repeatedly and only said vital spots.

The trial part is just a guess, but a witness would most likely say something like "Dude A attacked Dude B with a knife. Dude B brought him down and stabbed him until he died from it". Add in some slashed forearms Dude A has because of the mulitple-cuts-work-best-approach and it now looks like Dude A tried to defend himself from Dude B.

Again: This is not meant in a derogative way, but merely my 2 cents worth of internet.
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Werespaz » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:09 am

Smü wrote:I'd like to point out the significant difference between the first video and pretty much all videos showing "knife fighting techniques". While I admire and respect the amount of training and knowledge shown by the people in the Kali video for example, there are some things to consider IMvHO:

- Attackers attack once. No repeated attempts to get the pointy end in
- most of the time, the attacker freezes after his initial attack

These are the two main things that differ from the OP's video, but I'd like to have some more things listed, if I may:

- Attackers attack with the knife only. No kicks, grabs or clawing to diffuse the main weapon
- In some cases, the defender has a knife and excessively (sp) uses it (because the attacker politely freezes), see point no.2. This is a special thing to consider as this implies that you (as the defender) already have your knife ready and await the attack. This might apply to a certain set of scenarios, but might end fuzzy when confronted by law authorities.
- Speaking of which: I have seen two techniques in the Kali vid that would end in a manslaughter trial against the defender. Attacker is already restrained and incapable of moving and the defender then applies some sort of "finishing move", slashing and stabbing vital spots. Repeatedly and only said vital spots.

The trial part is just a guess, but a witness would most likely say something like "Dude A attacked Dude B with a knife. Dude B brought him down and stabbed him until he died from it". Add in some slashed forearms Dude A has because of the mulitple-cuts-work-best-approach and it now looks like Dude A tried to defend himself from Dude B.

Again: This is not meant in a derogative way, but merely my 2 cents worth of internet.
Thank you, I wanted to bring up both of those points. And again, I'm certainly not saying that Kali Escrima is ineffective against knives (or guns or HtH), it's solid stuff, but it certainly could be enhanced with some force on force training.

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Cherokee John » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:10 am

Interesting-I felt that Kali was better at OFFENSE and Krav Maga defense however KM is very much attack rather than passively defending but simply put if you aren't on the offense in a knife fight you won't be around for the manslaughter trial.
You are very correct in putting out the illegality of some of the techniques. I'm not mocking your very sensible and level headed observation. But coming down to fighting for your life you need to be aggressive.

Having a knife in a knife fight is a good thing. Not having one is a bad thing. I saw someone get shived at an outdoor party in a backyard in Long Beach, Ca. That guy had no chance and almost no defense. He was stabbed a few times before all hell broke loose. That really brought home how defenseless anyone can be in an ambush.

The Chinese gangster I disarmed with a metal pole he swung at me which he retrieved from the trunk of his car which he had hit me with. He pulled the knife as I was choking him out with the pole I had taken from him. The knife blade slipped in my bloody, sweaty hands as I had his hand locked and it sliced the tendons on my last two fingers on my left hand. He also stabbed into my thigh. I disarmed him and tossed the knife under a car. I then finished him. As it was in an Asian country no charges were brought against me and I was pressed into not pressing charges. If I had given up I wouldn't be writing this story with six working fingers. I went on the offense and won. Training vs.No training. The will to fight vs. being a victim.

It sucks being in a place where no one is going to protect you, the law won't and most certainly not the police. I've been in a few natural disasters in Asia where rule of law is gone and I was a foreigner (Could be why I'm interested in learning how to survive in PAW)

You have to be aggressive when being attacked with a knife. Seriously I hope someone can gain insight from my misfortune. Everyone has their opinion but in the end no technique can keep you 100% safe. I hope I don't sound like I know everything just sharing real experiences. Heck I've been in 3 knife attacks and I've never hurt anyone with a knife.
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Mr.Pliskin » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:18 pm

There nothing like real training with the guys but Marc "crafty dog" Denny has a video series "Die less Often That i found informative.

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by madwolf » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:41 am

If you're ever curious about just how effective/non-effective your knife defense is, do this:

Find a rubber training knife
Coat the edge and point with lipstick
Have a friend attack you as aggressively as they can
Defend yourself

Now, when you're done, look and see how many slash marks you have from the lipstick.

I do this with my students in our classes. This usually humbles people real quick about their real life chances in a knife fight. There's no better way to illustrate how difficult it really is to defend against a knife without actually having to do so.

Most people are not martial artists, for those who are, the majority don't have realistic training on how to deal with knife attacks. I find this exercise gives anyone, trained or no, a good idea of how it works and can be used to work out your own methods in a reasonably safe environment.
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Murph » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:06 pm

Update to the names and links mentioned earlier in the thread.

Jerry Wetzel – Red Zone Knife Defense ( http://centerlinegym.com/buy-red-zone-dvd/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Marc “Crafty Dog” Denny – Die Less Often DVD Series (Preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Karl Tanswell – S.T.A.B. Program (Preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_ZO17yWi7I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Paul Sharp (Defending Knife Attack w/ MMA Techniques: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEvgp5TE3ak" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Michael Janich (H2HC Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEFTGoJ-FIs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Tom Sotis – AMOK!( http://amokcombatives.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:07 pm

Bah. This thread has convinced me to learn the art or cane-fighting. And to wear an anti-stab vest.
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Visionz » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:03 pm

After reading this thread I honestly feel I am better prepared for a full scale zombie apocalypse than a single guy coming at me with a knife.
Which is kinda scary considering the latter can realistically happen.

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by phil_in_cs » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:56 pm

Doc Torr wrote:Bah. This thread has convinced me to learn the art or cane-fighting. And to wear an anti-stab vest.
There are no good answers, which is why so many gravitate to either unrealistically simple approaches or denial of the serious nature of the threat.
Visionz wrote:After reading this thread I honestly feel I am better prepared for a full scale zombie apocalypse than a single guy coming at me with a knife.
Which is kinda scary considering the latter can realistically happen.
That's pretty common too. People think they are ready for a terrorist dirty bomb campaign but can't get by 2 weeks if they get laid off.
Don't confuse a belligerent and aggressive attitude with the strength, training, and conditioning needed to prevail in a fight. How do you know you have the Will To Win, if you don't even have the will to train?

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:10 pm

Doc Torr wrote:Bah. This thread has convinced me to learn the art or cane-fighting. And to wear an anti-stab vest.

Cane fighting is a damn good skill to acquire IMO. Another good one is movement, creating distance and cutting angles. Read some books on big and small circle jui jitsu. Boxing has damn good foot work as well.
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:11 am

Regular Guy wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:Bah. This thread has convinced me to learn the art or cane-fighting. And to wear an anti-stab vest.

Cane fighting is a damn good skill to acquire IMO. Another good one is movement, creating distance and cutting angles. Read some books on big and small circle jui jitsu. Boxing has damn good foot work as well.
My background is BJJ, MCMAP (A-line meets MMA), and some striking. I was serious about the cane fighting, and psuedo-serious about the anti-stab vest. I keep thinking that learning to break the clinch with an umbrella or similar cane-like object has merit, as does keeping a good fast blade at hand. I think I've expressed my interest in a belt-mounted Emerson La Griffe before, since its blade size means that (at least in FL) i could belt carry it openly, meaning quicker access.

I've only dealt with a knife-like-object once. More like a shiv than a true knife, but I got lucky. I got to see him coming, didn't have edges to worry much about, and was able to lock up his wrist (broke the hold on the knife) and drop into an armbar and drag him with me. If he hadn't been alone, I'd have been toast. If he'd been more alert, more discreet, or better armed, I'd have been in the hospital with more than just a few smaller defensive wounds.

I also landed on his foot and hurt my butt. :(
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by VinnieD » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:37 pm

The best thing you can do here, is to step to the outside, and go afer the knife hand. Lock up that arm as best you can, and being to the outside you make yourself difficult to reach with the free hand and feet. After that start HURTING the guy. Eyes, face, throat, smash, bash, claw, elbow, do what you can. A committed attacker needs to be completely disabled.

In a situation like this getting the knife out of pay as quickly as possible is the top priority. Go for your weapon later if you can get a hand free. In that kind of scenario I don't think you'd even have time to turn and run. Notice how the attacker grappled with the victim and pulled him to the inside to prevent escape. You want to make sure you get to the outside where you can take control.

More importantly situational awareness. I just don't let anyone pass that close to me. Make eye contact, observe the hands, and if he moves to meet you when you try to avoid move for your own weapon before he gets that close.

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by phil_in_cs » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:45 pm

VinnieD wrote: I just don't let anyone pass that close to me.
So you never enter a store, a restaurant, a club, a sidewalk, an elevator, escalator or stairs,.... :?:
Don't confuse a belligerent and aggressive attitude with the strength, training, and conditioning needed to prevail in a fight. How do you know you have the Will To Win, if you don't even have the will to train?

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