Dealing with a knife threat

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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Dealing with a knife threat

Post by the_alias » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:12 am

Tribunal Power wrote:I just wanted to echo what was said above about someone pulling a knife on you. That's where hand-to-hand combat should stop and firearms training should begin. Lethal force is lethal force, be it a gun or a knife or a baseball bat with barbed wire (probably). If someone pulls a knife on you, start putting distance and taking aim.


Yeah because pulling a gun there would have solved all his problems...
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by squinty » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:03 am

Tribunal Power wrote:
That's where hand-to-hand combat should stop and firearms training should begin. Lethal force is lethal force, be it a gun or a knife or a baseball bat with barbed wire (probably). If someone pulls a knife on you, start putting distance and taking aim. If you don't have a firearm for protection, get one. If you can't, maybe try one of those projectile stun guns, if legal (and hope there's just one guy). If not that, you better learn how to repent of your sins faster than he can swipe his knife, because practically no martial arts master can come out of a knife fight unlacerated.
But the second someone unfolds a pocket knife, I'd forget all those Jackie Chan disarmament kicks you learned and reach for a firearm before you get yourself shanked.

Imho.
Oh, I concur with this little bit up here ^ 100%, but it's not necessarily going to be easy to create that distance or access that firearm unshanked, unless you have a bit of hand to hand facility. Depends on the situation, of course, but it's quite likely that an attack will be sudden and close, so you'll end up using your hands to fend off blows or control the incoming knife, or trying to disentangle yourself from attacking limbs and hands. Unless you're strolling along with your weapon drawn, the first few seconds of any lethal force encounter will involve you trying to resist unarmed.

That sucks, really, that you'll need to know kung fu just to be able to get your weapon out, but that's how it is.
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:57 am

the_alias wrote:

Yeah because pulling a gun there would have solved all his problems...

Not starting shit but that guy lots because he retreated. Not once did he any defensive movements, like moving out of the way or change directions. He allowed the attack to control the entire 'fight'. He did not counter strike, he did not try to disarm, and all retreated the whole time. That is an example of everything not to do.

I wish foot work and defensive movement were taught a lot more. I really like my coach because he teaches foot work and movement. Most folks teach just stand there an try some disarm technique, they should start with movement.
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by the_alias » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:10 am

Agree with your points about movement and 'defender' being useless in that clip.

The video was an example of a committed ATTACKER. Tribunal Power suggested retreating and drawing your gun to deal with a knife thread. My point was where does one see the time to do that in that clip.
Ergo threat management, hand to hand, IFWA all are as important.
Yes it is just one type of confrontation with a knife - there are others.
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:44 am

the_alias wrote:Agree with your points about movement and 'defender' being useless in that clip.

The video was an example of a committed ATTACKER. Tribunal Power suggested retreating and drawing your gun to deal with a knife thread. My point was where does one see the time to do that in that clip.
Ergo threat management, hand to hand, IFWA all are as important.
Yes it is just one type of confrontation with a knife - there are others.
Yes, drawing that close is pretty much a death sentance. Even going for your knife will get you killed. The only viable response is foot work/movement and kicks/punches/elbows etc.
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Murph » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:05 am

With regards to using a pistol as defense against a knife:

Quoted from this thread: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p1991555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote: ...

(relevant bit starts @ 5:15)
... Now in the video (as noted from 5:15 on) they're doing timed shootouts, "draw and stab" between a strong hand tactical folder vs a strong hand TDI Last Defence.
...
Sub-second draws and stabs with a fixed blade knife from everyday people. Even world class shooter Dave Sevigny still has a 1.36 second pistol draw from a open front vest. Guns aren't some magic talisman that will bail you out of a hole you're in.

As for creating space, a determined attacker can move forward faster than a defender can move backwards. Otherwise you'd see sprinters run races backwards. Even side stepping is no guarantee.

Many well renown instructors advocate escaping, and if can't then, "crash and control" techniques when it comes to knife defense.
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Werespaz » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:56 am

What I've learned in our knife drills is that you (likely) have no time.

Unfortunately, it seems bad guys never pull out their knives 20 feet away and yell, "Ima stab you now!" My understanding is, if someone has a knife, you'll only barely see it right before they stab you with it. You're going to need both hands to defend and attempt control on the arm and/or weapon. In all the drills we've done, I've never once felt like I had time to draw and shoot during the initial attack.

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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:01 am

I advocate either counter attacking by attacking their face with your hands and driving their head, or running through them, or running forward going towards the side that does not have the knife. It makes them have to turn to attack you and/or chase you.
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Murph » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:22 am

Regular Guy wrote:I advocate either counter attacking by attacking their face with your hands and driving their head, or running through them, or running forward going towards the side that does not have the knife. It makes them have to turn to attack you and/or chase you.
If you're going to run... Run towards safety. Not just in any ol' direction like a chicken with it's head cut off.
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
"When planning, prepare for the most likely, and then the most catastrophic."
raptor wrote: Being a gun collector does not make you a prepper.
the_alias wrote: Murph has all the diplomacy of a North Korean warhead, but -he has- a valid point

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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:50 am

Murph wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:I advocate either counter attacking by attacking their face with your hands and driving their head, or running through them, or running forward going towards the side that does not have the knife. It makes them have to turn to attack you and/or chase you.
If you're going to run... Run towards safety. Not just in any ol' direction like a chicken with it's head cut off.
Redacted BS of me being a dick and flying off the handle.

Move along, nothing to see here.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Murph » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:11 pm

Dood, ease up bro. You take -everything- personal.

Anyone could say, "I'd just run away." or "Run this direction." Which is really a cliche if you think about it, because what you really need to be doing is running towards safety. I think there is a lot of cliches that get repeated time and time again that are really just bad advice.

I just happen to use humor and visuals to make my points.
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
"When planning, prepare for the most likely, and then the most catastrophic."
raptor wrote: Being a gun collector does not make you a prepper.
the_alias wrote: Murph has all the diplomacy of a North Korean warhead, but -he has- a valid point

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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Werespaz » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:15 pm

Regular Guy wrote:I advocate either counter attacking by attacking their face with your hands and driving their head, or running through them, or running forward going towards the side that does not have the knife. It makes them have to turn to attack you and/or chase you.
Counter attacking is good in theory, but when that knife comes out of nowhere and is headed towards your guts (even a fake knife gets the blood pressure up) I've found that you really want to block with both hands. Getting a punch to the face in between thrusts or slices can sometimes be effective, but a badguy will likely rather take a punch to the face for delivering a fatal stab or slice.

I've also found that, if you can get control of the knife arm, getting yourself to the outside of it is the safest place. Also continuing to move them to keep them off guard and passing the weapon to the other hand buys you time.

Oddly enough, running never seems like an option unless you've created at least about 6-8 feet of space. And once that space has been created, it's more daunting for the attacker to re-engage.

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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:18 pm

Murph wrote:Dood, ease up bro. You take -everything- personal.

Anyone could say, "I'd just run away." or "Run this direction." Which is really a cliche if you think about it, because what you really need to be doing is running towards safety. I think there is a lot of cliches that get repeated time and time again that are really just bad advice.

I just happen to use humor and visuals to make my points.
Your right, I do need to ease up and stop taking things so personally. I'm not being a smart ass, I do. But it's well know by everyone here, I flip over stupid shit. I really try to curb it but for some reason there are a few folks here that just make me flip.

I think I need to step back from the internet today, it's not agreeing with me. I apologize.

And I agree, "just run away" is a stupid cliche.
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:23 pm

Werespaz wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:I advocate either counter attacking by attacking their face with your hands and driving their head, or running through them, or running forward going towards the side that does not have the knife. It makes them have to turn to attack you and/or chase you.
Counter attacking is good in theory, but when that knife comes out of nowhere and is headed towards your guts (even a fake knife gets the blood pressure up) I've found that you really want to block with both hands. Getting a punch to the face in between thrusts or slices can sometimes be effective, but a badguy will likely rather take a punch to the face for delivering a fatal stab or slice.

I've also found that, if you can get control of the knife arm, getting yourself to the outside of it is the safest place. Also continuing to move them to keep them off guard and passing the weapon to the other hand buys you time.

Oddly enough, running never seems like an option unless you've created at least about 6-8 feet of space. And once that space has been created, it's more daunting for the attacker to re-engage.
I agree with blocking with both arms. Not only do I train folks to block with both arms but also to strike with both arms against the knife weilding arms. In matrial arts and in fights, things are so dynamic, fluid and things are happening so fast it's difficult to convey the meaning and set up a set of defensives. Things that just sound stupid when I write them actually have worked well in our dojo.
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Werespaz » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:26 pm

Regular Guy wrote:
Werespaz wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:I advocate either counter attacking by attacking their face with your hands and driving their head, or running through them, or running forward going towards the side that does not have the knife. It makes them have to turn to attack you and/or chase you.
Counter attacking is good in theory, but when that knife comes out of nowhere and is headed towards your guts (even a fake knife gets the blood pressure up) I've found that you really want to block with both hands. Getting a punch to the face in between thrusts or slices can sometimes be effective, but a badguy will likely rather take a punch to the face for delivering a fatal stab or slice.

I've also found that, if you can get control of the knife arm, getting yourself to the outside of it is the safest place. Also continuing to move them to keep them off guard and passing the weapon to the other hand buys you time.

Oddly enough, running never seems like an option unless you've created at least about 6-8 feet of space. And once that space has been created, it's more daunting for the attacker to re-engage.
I agree with blocking with both arms. Not only do I train folks to block with both arms but also to strike with both arms against the knife weilding arms. In matrial arts and in fights, things are so dynamic, fluid and things are happening so fast it's difficult to convey the meaning and set up a set of defensives. Things that just sound stupid when I write them actually have worked well in our dojo.
I hear you there. The internets kinda fail for this kind of thing. "Striking" instead of "blocking" is an important concept too. Often, people tend to think of a block as "put your arm up and wait for them to run into it." That's a bad way of thinking. You need to meet force with force or you'll get hit/stabbed for sure.

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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by phil_in_cs » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:27 pm

Werespaz wrote:Counter attacking is good in theory, but when that knife comes out of nowhere and is headed towards your guts (even a fake knife gets the blood pressure up) I've found that you really want to block with both hands. Getting a punch to the face in between thrusts or slices can sometimes be effective, but a badguy will likely rather take a punch to the face for delivering a fatal stab or slice.
QFT. Trading a deep cut to your neck for a punch to his face isn't a good trade. Get control of his weapon first so it stops killing you, and then counter attack.

Here's a good item I've posted before:

Don't confuse a belligerent and aggressive attitude with the strength, training, and conditioning needed to prevail in a fight. How do you know you have the Will To Win, if you don't even have the will to train?

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by the_alias » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:34 pm

Split these posts off of another thread - we had a 'dealing with a knife threat' thread a while ago that went to shit.

Let us try and not let that happen to this one!
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:48 pm



I very much disagree with what this guy is doing. He's reaching over the top of the knife, if the guy changes course it will end up in the palm. He assuming he's going to be stronger than the guy with the knife. He putting a lot of commitment into being able to grab the knife hand. He's putting too much faith the guy is going to stand there as the maneuvers around the arm to get into the elbow lock. IMHO, that technique is sorely flawed.

That stabbing motion is one of the most difficult to deal with. I prefer to side step and knife hands strike the top of the fore arm and the bicep. Then knee strike hard and step out.

Or my much more preferred method is to step to the out side, again, strike the back of the forearm and the tricep then deliver a stomp kick to the calf. Then beat feet.

I'll attempt to find a youtube demonstrating this.
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by phil_in_cs » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:52 pm

Side stepping assumes you have room to move around and see the attack coming in.
Don't confuse a belligerent and aggressive attitude with the strength, training, and conditioning needed to prevail in a fight. How do you know you have the Will To Win, if you don't even have the will to train?

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:08 pm

phil_in_cs wrote:Side stepping assumes you have room to move around and see the attack coming in.
True. Just me talking, not advising, I'd rather use a strike/block coming from the inside to deflect the knife to the outside then come over the top of the arm and attempt a stand Kamora coupled with knee strikes. Just me.
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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by raptor » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:31 pm

phil_in_cs wrote:Side stepping assumes you have room to move around and see the attack coming in.

There are a lot of things you can do. However, like Phil says you have to see the attack coming.

A drawn knife is a lawful excuse (at least in TX, LA, FL & AZ I do not know about the other states) to use lethal force...again..IF you see it coming.

If you are in a close quarter altercation, distance is your friend, as is awareness of your surroundings. If you are close and cannot see the hands; you have no chance to react timely.

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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by DarkAxel » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:11 pm

the_alias wrote: The video was an example of a committed ATTACKER. Tribunal Power suggested retreating and drawing your gun to deal with a knife thread. My point was where does one see the time to do that in that clip.
Dude had time to pull of his shirt and try to play matador. Ole! :lol: :lol: :lol:

But you are right. Even basic hand-to-hand skills are more useful than a holstered gun if attacked by a dude with a knife.
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Re: Reflections on Self Defense and Martial Arts classes

Post by Werespaz » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:45 pm

DarkAxel wrote:
the_alias wrote: The video was an example of a committed ATTACKER. Tribunal Power suggested retreating and drawing your gun to deal with a knife thread. My point was where does one see the time to do that in that clip.
Dude had time to pull of his shirt and try to play matador. Ole! :lol: :lol: :lol:

But you are right. Even basic hand-to-hand skills are more useful than a holstered gun if attacked by a dude with a knife.
Yeah, what was up with that maneuver? You're much better off keeping your hands free to deal with the threat (or create enough space to draw, if possible).

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Re: Dealing with a knife threat

Post by Murph » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:18 pm

Hmm... Here's couple guys known for their Knife Defense material:

Jerry Wetzel - Red Zone Knife Defense
Karl Tanswell - S.T.A.B. Program
Paul Sharp
Micheal Janich
Marc Denny
...to name a few...

And a common thread with all of them is you need to gain control of the attacker's knife before you do anything. You can't just block the knife once if someone is going all stabby sewing machine on you.

Any technique will work in a training environment if the "attacker" puts his knife out and leaves it hanging out there till the "defender" does the technique. But clearly, that's not how shit goes down in real life.
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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