These folks still don't get it....

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These folks still don't get it....

Post by gryphon50 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:05 am

Hey folks, I never realized we were so paranoid.

As usual the media gets it wrong again.

"A sense of "suffering and being afraid" is usually at the root of this kind of thinking, according to Cathy Gutierrez, an expert on end-times beliefs at Sweet Briar College in Virginia."

Just saw this article.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... LA20120121" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Sorry, not sure how to post a link.)

At least the comments show some promise

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:17 am

The article cited Beck and Rawles, at which point it becomes clear that the writer (of the article) has a prejudice/dogma/bias/whatever you want to call it against the topic, or just didn't research as fully as a news source should have.

Remember also that news is a business. They have to get subscribers/sell copies/keep viewers to make money, and the easiest way to do that is to show the weirdest and most entertaining car wreck possible. Rawlsian "prepare to rule the world" types are the Jersey Shore of the prepping community. Entertaining to watch and laugh at, but not all of New Jersey is like that.
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by majorhavoc » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:49 am

And people who forgo life and health insurance are hopeful, self-actualized people who choose to focus on nothing but success and happiness in life.

Sensible prepping is all about managing risk. Can it be taken too far? Of course it can, if you go through life seeing threats everywhere and make decisions based exclusively on the belief that bad things are going to happen. There's a name for that. It's called paranoia.

As in almost all human endeavor, there's a continuum. In disaster preparation it ranges from irrational denial to debilitating fear. But to categorically declare all preppers as paranoid or emotionally unwell is to paint their efforts in such broad strokes that it ceases to be a meaningful discussion. It serves to accomplish nothing except garner that self-proclaimed "expert" more published articles and speaking engagements.

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by AnonEmous » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:36 am

Doc Torr wrote:The article cited Beck and Rawles... Rawlsian "prepare to rule the world" types are the Jersey Shore of the prepping community. Entertaining to watch and laugh at, but not all of New Jersey is like that.
The Jersey Shore comparison painted a great picture. On a slightly different note, it appears Rawles has quite the potential revenue source with a best-selling book, consulting services, and a popular blog. Which makes me ask...

What does a financially successful survivalist do with all that (presumed) cash?
Is that revenue all invested in supplies, ammo, and precious metals? From what little I have read, it sounds like he lives as a true believer, but I cannot help but think of the 1980's movie The Survivors.

In a twist at the end of the movie which has little to do with the story, the leader of a survivalist camp who preaches against the modern economic system is revealed as a hypocrit and opportunist because he is heavily invested in stock futures and options.

Wikipedia write up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Survivors_(1983_film) You tube tralier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX7xqrkqbyo

Apart from the hypocrisy of the camp leader, the film does make fun of survivalists in much the same way the article cited above does.

Which makes what ZS does all the more important:
Negative press coverage is an opportunity for ZS-- if so desired-- to respond in a positive light. One of the most interesting things that struck me about the ZS homepage is the volunteer aspect to it: Zombie Squad's mission is to educate the public about the importance of personal preparedness and community service, to increase its readiness to respond to disasters such as earthquakes, floods or zombie outbreaks.

That sounds like a great start to the "elevator speech" some chapters are trying to develop.

And on a final note, this seemed to sum up the purpose of ZS very well:
http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... &t=89326&p (5 comments from the top)
airballrad wrote:
Psypher wrote:
Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote:ZS is where rabid republicans can sit down and talk trigger tuning jobs on AR variants with devout democrats; where successful businessmen, doctors and lawyers can sit down and talk about backpacks and hydration pouches with struggling students and minimum wagers; where short back and sides sunday go to meeting types can sit down and talk vegetable gardening with punk rocking tattooed pagans; where paranoid skywatchers can sit down and talk food & water storage preps with your highly skeptical grandmother and it's because of the things we don't talk about when we sit down to talk that this is so.
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The necessity of the routine (clean water) often trumps the lure of the exciting (expensive gear).

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Jimmy NoFeet » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:15 am

Doc Torr wrote: Rawlsian "prepare to rule the world" types are the Jersey Shore of the prepping community. Entertaining to watch and laugh at, but not all of New Jersey is like that.
While I don't agree with Rawles on everything, even finding some of his positions downright dangerous, I would hesitate to call him a "prepare to rule the world" type. Sure, he suggests that his readers put themselves in a better position for a dark future, and he does draw in a lot of conspiracy/militia/better-than-thou-by-birth types, solely because of his financial prepping ideas and postulations on who will be out on the streets.
I dunno, he and ZS introduced me to prepping, so I'm biased. :roll:

Anyways, the only we can do, as preppers, is to reach out to those not as familiar or comfortable with the idea of a life-changing disaster, natural or not, and show them how we can be normal people.
Maybe if we ignore him, he'll just go away.

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:34 am

Rule the world was a bit far. Rule the landfill/bring order to the PAW is more accurate. Regardless...

When I introduce prepping, or ZS, I have 3 different approaches. For introducing prepping, I like to rely on my personal experiences involving natural disaster (hurricanes/tornados) that left me house without power for about 2 weeks, and required 14+ hours of continuous chainsaw work to get out of the driveway, combined with a few old saws about planning ahead (Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, etc.) delivered with a smile. It's a more realistic approach, and makes the transition easier into topics like off-grid living (victory gardens, backup water supply) without sounding like a bunker survivalist.

Once their initiated into the lifestyle, and have started to lose their mind a bit, I feel more comfortable talking about stocking 10,000 rounds of 5.56 and mock-bugouts.
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Jimmy NoFeet » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:12 pm

Doc Torr wrote: When I introduce prepping, or ZS, I have 3 different approaches. For introducing prepping, I like to rely on my personal experiences involving natural disaster (hurricanes/tornados) that left me house without power for about 2 weeks, and required 14+ hours of continuous chainsaw work to get out of the driveway, combined with a few old saws about planning ahead (Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, etc.) delivered with a smile. It's a more realistic approach, and makes the transition easier into topics like off-grid living (victory gardens, backup water supply) without sounding like a bunker survivalist.
THIS. The group of people that are my peers have never experienced any real disaster for the most part. Perhaps the closest they could think of would be the ravaging of my city's stores by people escaping Louisiana before and after Katrina. I'm not gonna say the shelves were empty, but it was close. Folks who remember that, are usually pretty reachable, but there's always those guys who foresee the same things happening that I do, and yet won't do anything about it. The fatalists I try to encourage, and the take-what-I-wants I tend to steer away from after discussing the wrongness of such acts.
For my group, many of us are heading to college in the fall. As far as I can tell, the six-month's of food & wahwah in the dorms would be ill-advised or impossible with space limitations. So I'm encouraging my classmates to 1: get educated, 2: make a rudimentary BOB, and 3: a plan to get home, with whatever further preps they plan to purchase left in the safe-keeping of their parents. All under the guise of shortages from people displaced by storms. It works pretty well, I find.
Maybe if we ignore him, he'll just go away.

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by ZombieGranny » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:16 pm

Who is this "James Wesley Rawles, whose Survival Blog is considered the guiding light of the prepper movement"?
Never heard of him.
Why are they pushing him, does he have a new book out?

He isn't my guiding light, my grandmother is.
She died 47 years ago, but I think of her several times a week.

Prepping is in order to avoid that "sense of suffering and being afraid".
I learned that from her...
Put your food/money by in times of plenty and you can still eat in times of scarcity, and help others too.

That article makes it sound like a depressing thing to provide for your family.
I'm putting food away good enough for my 2 year old grandson to eat when he's 21, and we have already set in place plans for his retirement!
THAT FEELS GOOD, DAMN GOOD!


Please pardon the language.
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:28 pm

ZG: Wrote "Patriots" "Survivors" and runs his blog. Pushes precious metals and religion like coke in Harlem.
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:30 pm

ZombieGranny wrote:Who is this "James Wesley Rawles, whose Survival Blog is considered the guiding light of the prepper movement"?
Never heard of him.
Why are they pushing him, does he have a new book out?
I can only assume. Never heard of him, either. Dunno, don't care...
ZombieGranny wrote:He isn't my guiding light, my grandmother is.
She died 47 years ago, but I think of her several times a week.
We lost Grandma a few years ago, and Grandpa a few before that. Great Depression survivors and WWII vets, they were tough, smart, prepared, and gawdammed inspiring people. They have kept us, as a family, afloat even after their passing. I wish the kids had known them more...
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by RickOShea » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:50 pm

Doc Torr wrote:The article cited Beck and Rawles, at which point it becomes clear that the writer (of the article) has a prejudice/dogma/bias/whatever you want to call it against the topic, or just didn't research as fully as a news source should have.
I liked Beck's novel, The Overton Window, from a "pro-prepper" stand point.
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:03 pm

RickOShea wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:The article cited Beck and Rawles, at which point it becomes clear that the writer (of the article) has a prejudice/dogma/bias/whatever you want to call it against the topic, or just didn't research as fully as a news source should have.
I liked Beck's novel, The Overton Window, from a "pro-prepper" stand point.
I watched 5 minutes of his show once, and have never reconsidered my decision to treat him like a clown. The "Glenn Beck Crying Montage" on youtube was good for a laugh, but there are much better people and books out there, especially if you DON'T want to look like a right-wing religious-zealot nutjob.

Note: Right-wing, religious zealot, and nutjob are separate tags, each of which I believe Beck takes to comical levels. I personally think prepping is not a religious or political matter, so I would match rather try to introduce new folks with much less...inflammatory materials. ZS has been the best I've found yet, which is why I firmly believe in the no religion/no politics rule. I've encountered issues, to say the least, when posting on other forums. Namely my sig image.

FAKE EDIT: By way of disclaimer, I'venever read Beck's books.
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Ryder358 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:09 pm

Has anyone else read "Patriots"? I bought it for a few bucks because it sounded interesting but the ideology of the main characters is often very off-putting. It's a story if a complete economical collapse and a group of friends who have spent years planning for a what if senario. I'm only part way through but here's dome things that have bothered me:

1) Even though they are more than well off supply wise they hide in and ambush from spider holes each time people travel down their road and at gun point interrogate and inventory their bags. These are the "good guys"?

2) one of the groups they ambush ends up being two men with human remains saved for food hidden in a cart they are pushing. Without any questions upon seeing this after, once again holding people who weren't bothering them at gun point, they exicute the two men with a weapon modified to fire fully auto, dumping a large magazine of ammo into each man. After collecting the items and weapons off the two slain men they have a vote and decide that they can't use what they took because that would be too close to looting and to just save it all to donate to someone later when/if some order returns.

The characters are full of holier-than-thou attitude and huge amounts of hypocracy. Just my two cents

Slightly more in topic I saw a similar if not the same news piece today via Drudge Report link. It also help the same "only crazy people carry umbrellas" sort of opinion
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:27 pm

Ryder358 wrote:Has anyone else read "Patriots"?

No, and from the sounds of it, I'll slap any MF'er that refers to is as a source of "information."
Ryder358 wrote:"only crazy people carry umbrellas" sort of opinion
What a crazy world that actually employs the phrase "over prepared" rather than "impropperly prepared"
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Hermit » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:35 pm

gryphon50 wrote: "A sense of "suffering and being afraid" is usually at the root of this kind of thinking, according to Cathy Gutierrez, an expert on end-times beliefs at Sweet Briar College in Virginia."
Gutierrez is an Associate Professor and Department Chair of Religion at Sweet Briar in Virginia. Who knows how many cuts and edits this article went through before getting published online, but to me this is a gross over-simplification of correlation here.
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by raptor » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:54 pm

I do not mean this as snarky, even though it is.

People will disagree with your opinions.

They will judge you based upon their own biases and perceptions. These opinions are just that opinions...nothing more.

My advice is to simply ignore them and go on with your life. It is not worth your time to worry about it. You will never get their understanding much less approval or validation.

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Jimmy NoFeet » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:03 pm

Ryder358 wrote:Has anyone else read "Patriots"? I bought it for a few bucks because it sounded interesting but the ideology of the main characters is often very off-putting. It's a story if a complete economical collapse and a group of friends who have spent years planning for a what if senario. I'm only part way through but here's dome things that have bothered me:

1) Even though they are more than well off supply wise they hide in and ambush from spider holes each time people travel down their road and at gun point interrogate and inventory their bags. These are the "good guys"?

2) one of the groups they ambush ends up being two men with human remains saved for food hidden in a cart they are pushing. Without any questions upon seeing this after, once again holding people who weren't bothering them at gun point, they exicute the two men with a weapon modified to fire fully auto, dumping a large magazine of ammo into each man. After collecting the items and weapons off the two slain men they have a vote and decide that they can't use what they took because that would be too close to looting and to just save it all to donate to someone later when/if some order returns.

The characters are full of holier-than-thou attitude and huge amounts of hypocracy. Just my two cents

Slightly more in topic I saw a similar if not the same news piece today via Drudge Report link. It also help the same "only crazy people carry umbrellas" sort of opinion
Having read the book several times, I feel qualified to discuss this matter, skip on if you disagree on this point.

1: They ambush people walking down the Greys' very long driveway. It's off the main road. <--- or at least that's the impression I get.
2: TK sprayed the cannibals in a rather cheap attempt at emotional drama by Rawles. The alleged Communists (again, see the far right bent in Rawles's writings) were also carrying two backpacks and a garden cart full of Gold and silver coins, and watches with the tags still on them. I fail to understand the need to hang the bodies as well. The full-auto mod was done through a loophole in the law allowing the Northwest Militia to purchase auto-sears and all that Pre-Crunch, then converting their AR's following the collapse of government. I'll be stopping right there in accordance with forum rules.

Many of these things bother me, however I do find a fair bit of useful information in his books.
Maybe if we ignore him, he'll just go away.

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:15 pm

Jimmy NoFeet wrote:Having read the book several times, I feel qualified to discuss this matter, skip on if you disagree on this point.
Having read The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy several times, I think I prefer Douglas Adams' story of the end of the world :lol:
Jimmy NoFeet wrote:Many of these things bother me, however I do find a fair bit of useful information in his books.
OK, consider yourself slapped, but still loved :wink: Is that information found anywhere else? Like ZS? I'd just hate to have to subject someone to this kind of literature for a few useful nuggets they could find other places. I'd much rather hand out copies of R.A. Heinlein's books, like Starship Troopers or Time Enough for Love.
Last edited by Kutter_0311 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by RickOShea » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:15 pm

Doc Torr wrote:
RickOShea wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:The article cited Beck and Rawles, at which point it becomes clear that the writer (of the article) has a prejudice/dogma/bias/whatever you want to call it against the topic, or just didn't research as fully as a news source should have.
I liked Beck's novel, The Overton Window, from a "pro-prepper" stand point.
I watched 5 minutes of his show once, and have never reconsidered my decision to treat him like a clown. The "Glenn Beck Crying Montage" on youtube was good for a laugh, but there are much better people and books out there, especially if you DON'T want to look like a right-wing religious-zealot nutjob.

Note: Right-wing, religious zealot, and nutjob are separate tags, each of which I believe Beck takes to comical levels. I personally think prepping is not a religious or political matter, so I would match rather try to introduce new folks with much less...inflammatory materials. ZS has been the best I've found yet, which is why I firmly believe in the no religion/no politics rule. I've encountered issues, to say the least, when posting on other forums. Namely my sig image.

FAKE EDIT: By way of disclaimer, I'venever read Beck's books.
I remember a quote by Tom Clancy that I read when I was like 13 years old. It was basically "You'll learn much more reading stuff written by people you don't neccessarily agree with, than from stuff written by people whom you do". Which is probably why my library is so....eclectic.

As always: YMMV.
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Jimmy NoFeet » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:36 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote:
Jimmy NoFeet wrote:Having read the book several times, I feel qualified to discuss this matter, skip on if you disagree on this point.
Having read The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy several times, I think I prefer Douglas Adams' story of the end of the world :lol:
Jimmy NoFeet wrote:Many of these things bother me, however I do find a fair bit of useful information in his books.
OK, consider yourself slapped, but still loved :wink: Is that information found anywhere else? Like ZS? I'd just hate to have to subject someone to this lind of literature for a few useful nuggets they could find other places. I'd much rather hand out copies of R.A. Heinlein's books, like Starship Troopers or Time Enough for Love.
I feel like I've been to this restaurant before. :P

To answer your question, much of it is available elsewhere, but one read through is pretty much equivalent to several days of strong Google-fu. If you can look past some of the more radical and questionably legal parts of his book, it's worth the money. I would read through it yourself, Kutter. Rawles quotes Heinlein like a mad man. :)
Strikes you also as the kind of guy who spent a whole lot of time at sci-fi conventions and then grew up to bigger toys.
Maybe if we ignore him, he'll just go away.

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:49 pm

RickOShea wrote:I remember a quote by Tom Clancy that I read when I was like 13 years old. It was basically "You'll learn much more reading stuff written by people you don't neccessarily agree with, than from stuff written by people whom you do". Which is probably why my library is so....eclectic.
QFT, Rick, QFT...

I keep meaning to read Mein Kampf and the Quran, for this very reason, just have little time between diapers and baby food.
Jimmy NoFeet wrote:To answer your question, much of it is available elsewhere, but one read through is pretty much equivalent to several days of strong Google-fu. If you can look past some of the more radical and questionably legal parts of his book, it's worth the money. I would read through it yourself, Kutter. Rawles quotes Heinlein like a mad man. :) Strikes you also as the kind of guy who spent a whole lot of time at sci-fi conventions and then grew up to bigger toys.
I suppose I'll have to add it to the list, if only to know more. Farnham's Freehold was pretty 'out-there' too, in it's day.

Still not a book I hand out to strangers, as FF is still liable to make people think you're a nutter :lol:
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Cybrludite » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:58 pm

Ryder358 wrote:Has anyone else read "Patriots"?
I've tried, but found it pretty much unreadable. Any useful info on prepping is buried under tons of ideology & religion. The "cannibalistic commies" was the last straw for me, and my opinion of Communism gets the Godwin card played on me all the time.
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by TacAir » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:05 pm

Jimmy NoFeet wrote:
Ryder358 wrote:Has anyone else read "Patriots"? I bought it for a few bucks because it sounded interesting but the ideology of the main characters is often very off-putting. It's a story if a complete economical collapse and a group of friends who have spent years planning for a what if senario. I'm only part way through but here's dome things that have bothered me:

(SNIP)

The characters are full of holier-than-thou attitude and huge amounts of hypocracy. Just my two cents

Slightly more in topic I saw a similar if not the same news piece today via Drudge Report link. It also help the same "only crazy people carry umbrellas" sort of opinion
Having read the book several times, I feel qualified to discuss this matter, skip on if you disagree on this point.

(SNIP)

Many of these things bother me, however I do find a fair bit of useful information in his books.

As I noted in another review thread on this book, I didn't care for the cardboard-cutout characters running around on a one dimensional landscape.
I also was horrified at the sheer amount of simply bad or badly out of date material passed off as something worth looking at.
I guess the two things that bugged me the most was - first the 'fortress mentality' and all that goes with it. It exists, I even have a bit of it in "First Strike' because it does exist. Doesn't means it's a particularly good thing - I see that as part of the whole **Those that prepare to survive, deserve to survive** No thanks, large groups do better - for many reasons.

And second - the entire Sovereign citizen/New world Order/hold a prayer meeting every other page - I hesitate to say mindset. That's why I threw the book out. I simply couldn't see passing it along.

It's still a free country, JWR can think what he wants, print whatever folks will buy. He's successful, so he has a market that supports the mindset/views.
TacAir - I'd rather be a disappointed pessimist than a horrified optimist
**All my books ** some with a different view of the "PAW". Check 'em out.
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Kutter_0311
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Re: These folks still don't get it....

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:10 pm

TacAir wrote:It's still a free country, JWR can think what he wants, print whatever folks will buy. He's successful, so he has a market that supports the mindset/views.
Yeah, so did Mein Kampf, but I'm going to stop there, as saying more would shift from 'historical' to 'political.'

I think I'd rather hand out Farnham's Freehold, as I think it's less 'wacko' and more 'useful.'
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

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