The Myth of "The Grey Man"

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by ODA 226 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:44 am

Omega DR wrote:Maybe I haven't properly explained my "homeless" theory, thus I shall give more details.
Currently, LEO targets the homeless as a nuisance to the greater public order. Business owners don't want them around their establishment, homeowners near their neighborhoods. Thugs and hoodlums target the homeless for random assaults because their nameless faceless victims, unlikely to report their attackers and LEO are equally unlikely to do anything about it.
Why? The homeless appearance and lifestyle are offensive to the general public. That same unkempt, shabby appearance could allow be the prefect camouflage during a PAW situation. Think of Robert Duvall's character in the movie,The Road. If you do find yourself on the move, who do you think would be the bigger target for bandits and highwaymen? The "Show-of-Force" Prepper in Full Tactical Load out, Tricked out AR, and Full Loaded BOB or The Shaddy Looking Bum, in dirty overcoat and coveralls? Mr. Show of Force would probably be the first target for any would-be snipers, and would definitely be perceived and a threat to any remaining LEO and Military Forces, he may stumble into. Right, Raptor?

The POINT is, not drawing undue attention to yourself. The homeless draw attention when the enter into area where they are not suppose to be. I have worked with several homeless outreach programs, there are more of them in communities than anyone who think. Many are very good at maintain a very low profile. You want to learn something about urban survival skills, spend some time with the homeless, they are doing it right now, everyday.
You haven't read the entire thread, have you? This has been addressed AD NAUSEUM here.

The TACTIC of looking like a bum has been disproven as a viable survival option for the very reasons you have stated. BUMS DRAW ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES FROM EVERYBODY, not just Law Enforcement!

Additionally, the "fantasy" of the "Lone Wolf Survivalist" has been proven to be among THE WORST survival strategies.To use your example about "The Road", who do you think the raiders would rather attack, a bum and his son that were stupid enough to sleep on the side of the road or a group of well organized, well armed preppers that show the WILL to defend themselves against attack?

There is a lot of good information in this thread. Please go back and read it in its ENTIRETY and THEN make a post based upon informed opinion.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by the_alias » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:53 am

I know many people who've done hostile environment training for journos and one thing they stress if you get captured is to remember to try and appear human to your captors.
It is harder to kill someone who looks more like you, who is more human.
Dehumanising people is the first step to killing them - dressing as a bum removes you one step further from normal people.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by oldsoldier » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:04 am

The downside of that is that you are role playing. In reality, it may, or may not, work. History has shown us that, no matter how much you may plead with your captors, if there is an agenda, they will likely follow it. Think of the journalist killed in 2003 or 2004. They beheaded him-he pleaded to them. Perhaps in the past, this may have held true, and, it certainly doesnt hurt...but, with the larger agenda of some of the zealot groups today, your fate is likely sealed beforehand-and no amount of humanizing yourself may help. But, never having personally been in that situation-nor personally knowing anyone who has-this is simply my own, personal conclusion, based solely on public information.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by Omega DR » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:30 pm

ODA 226 wrote:
Omega DR wrote:Maybe I haven't properly explained my "homeless" theory, thus I shall give more details.
Currently, LEO targets the homeless as a nuisance to the greater public order. Business owners don't want them around their establishment, homeowners near their neighborhoods. Thugs and hoodlums target the homeless for random assaults because their nameless faceless victims, unlikely to report their attackers and LEO are equally unlikely to do anything about it.
Why? The homeless appearance and lifestyle are offensive to the general public. That same unkempt, shabby appearance could allow be the prefect camouflage during a PAW situation. Think of Robert Duvall's character in the movie,The Road. If you do find yourself on the move, who do you think would be the bigger target for bandits and highwaymen? The "Show-of-Force" Prepper in Full Tactical Load out, Tricked out AR, and Full Loaded BOB or The Shaddy Looking Bum, in dirty overcoat and coveralls? Mr. Show of Force would probably be the first target for any would-be snipers, and would definitely be perceived and a threat to any remaining LEO and Military Forces, he may stumble into. Right, Raptor?

The POINT is, not drawing undue attention to yourself. The homeless draw attention when the enter into area where they are not suppose to be. I have worked with several homeless outreach programs, there are more of them in communities than anyone who think. Many are very good at maintain a very low profile. You want to learn something about urban survival skills, spend some time with the homeless, they are doing it right now, everyday.
You haven't read the entire thread, have you? This has been addressed AD NAUSEUM here.

The TACTIC of looking like a bum has been disproven as a viable survival option for the very reasons you have stated. BUMS DRAW ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES FROM EVERYBODY, not just Law Enforcement!

Additionally, the "fantasy" of the "Lone Wolf Survivalist" has been proven to be among THE WORST survival strategies.To use your example about "The Road", who do you think the raiders would rather attack, a bum and his son that were stupid enough to sleep on the side of the road or a group of well organized, well armed preppers that show the WILL to defend themselves against attack?

There is a lot of good information in this thread. Please go back and read it in its ENTIRETY and THEN make a post based upon informed opinion.
Just because you disagree, does not mean your "opinion" is any more informed than any other. We're all talking theory here, so YOU nor anyone on this thread knows exactly what would happen in a PAW situation in the United States of America.
Seriously, some of you crack me up, speaking with such expertise on totally hypothetical situations. Like your group of well organized, well trained preppers won't collided with any other group of equally well organized, well trained preppers, and they may not be friendly.
Without knowing anything about my background or experience, you dismiss any suggestions of ideals that don't fit into you narrow experience or world view. For the last 20 yrs, I have worked in locations where my life depends on maintaining a low profile and constant situational awareness. I joined to group to share ideals and expand my knowledge base. What I'm finding are a core group of self-aggrandizing ZS experts.
Until PAW actually happens, in this country, you or anyone can only speculate on what it will actual look like. Even in those countries where it has happened, Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, Somalia, each situation was total different. So before dismissing anything, consider others have had vastly different experiences than you and MAY have something to add, from real world experience.

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by Grey Mann » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:40 pm

--retracted--
Last edited by Grey Mann on Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by raptor » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:49 pm

Gang. Before this turns into something that will make me lock this good thread. I need to point out to anyone who is going to post here that on ZS everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This thread is an opinion piece. It makes some good and very logical points but in fact it is an opinion piece.

If someone chooses to disagree with that opinion, it is acceptable to do so, so long as the exception stays within the acceptable boundaries of the forum rules.

I would also suggest that both supporters and detractors back up any statements of support of disagreement with logic to support that position. As a final note this like many threads in this section should be read in it's entirety before posting a response to it.

Otherwise you are just going to look silly. :D

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by Kommander » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:49 pm

If one does not know what an ODA is I suggest that you look it up before continuing to post in this thread.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by ODA 226 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:37 pm

Omega DR wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
Omega DR wrote:Maybe I haven't properly explained my "homeless" theory, thus I shall give more details.
Currently, LEO targets the homeless as a nuisance to the greater public order. Business owners don't want them around their establishment, homeowners near their neighborhoods. Thugs and hoodlums target the homeless for random assaults because their nameless faceless victims, unlikely to report their attackers and LEO are equally unlikely to do anything about it.
Why? The homeless appearance and lifestyle are offensive to the general public. That same unkempt, shabby appearance could allow be the prefect camouflage during a PAW situation. Think of Robert Duvall's character in the movie,The Road. If you do find yourself on the move, who do you think would be the bigger target for bandits and highwaymen? The "Show-of-Force" Prepper in Full Tactical Load out, Tricked out AR, and Full Loaded BOB or The Shaddy Looking Bum, in dirty overcoat and coveralls? Mr. Show of Force would probably be the first target for any would-be snipers, and would definitely be perceived and a threat to any remaining LEO and Military Forces, he may stumble into. Right, Raptor?

The POINT is, not drawing undue attention to yourself. The homeless draw attention when the enter into area where they are not suppose to be. I have worked with several homeless outreach programs, there are more of them in communities than anyone who think. Many are very good at maintain a very low profile. You want to learn something about urban survival skills, spend some time with the homeless, they are doing it right now, everyday.
You haven't read the entire thread, have you? This has been addressed AD NAUSEUM here.

The TACTIC of looking like a bum has been disproven as a viable survival option for the very reasons you have stated. BUMS DRAW ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES FROM EVERYBODY, not just Law Enforcement!

Additionally, the "fantasy" of the "Lone Wolf Survivalist" has been proven to be among THE WORST survival strategies.To use your example about "The Road", who do you think the raiders would rather attack, a bum and his son that were stupid enough to sleep on the side of the road or a group of well organized, well armed preppers that show the WILL to defend themselves against attack?

There is a lot of good information in this thread. Please go back and read it in its ENTIRETY and THEN make a post based upon informed opinion.
Just because you disagree, does not mean your "opinion" is any more informed than any other. We're all talking theory here, so YOU nor anyone on this thread knows exactly what would happen in a PAW situation in the United States of America.

That's not the point I was trying to make. We have already addressed the looking like a bum issue repeatedly. If you had read the entirety of this thread, you would have known that. We are just trying to avoid repetition.
Seriously, some of you crack me up, speaking with such expertise on totally hypothetical situations. Like your group of well organized, well trained preppers won't collided with any other group of equally well organized, well trained preppers, and they may not be friendly.

It's not "hypothetical" for some of us. We've already lived it.

Without knowing anything about my background or experience, you dismiss any suggestions of ideals that don't fit into you narrow experience or world view.

Nobody has dismissed anything you have to say, quite the contrary. But your own words indicate that you realized that the looking "homeless" can and will draw attention to ones self.


For the last 20 yrs, I have worked in locations where my life depends on maintaining a low profile and constant situational awareness.

Pardon me for asking, but since you made the statement, I have to ask you, where?

I joined to group to share ideals and expand my knowledge base. What I'm finding are a core group of self-aggrandizing ZS experts.
We are all here to learn from each other, don't take things so seriously.

Until PAW actually happens, in this country, you or anyone can only speculate on what it will actual look like. Even in those countries where it has happened, Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, Somalia, each situation was total different.

Funny you should mention Bosnia...I got there during the war in 1994 and was there until the war's end (and WAY before IFOR got there) and then was part of UNPROFOR and UNTAES in Croatia until that war ended. I was in Kosovo before, during and after the war there and also in the "troubles" in Macedonia in the late 1990's. Spent three years in Iraq too. Been to a whole bunch of other rather nasty places too. My real life experiences were told at the begining of this thread, but that's not important.

So before dismissing anything, consider others have had vastly different experiences than you and MAY have something to add, from real world experience.

I'm not dismissive of anything you bring to the table and welcome your comments. So please tell us about your real world experiences and I truly hope you can and will bring something constructive to this thread! Thanks!

Last edited by ODA 226 on Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by Hollis » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:44 pm

PAW and the worse case SHTF Scenario is purely theoretical at this point. How much disorder will their be? People historically have a habit of banding together, given a fair amount of time after any dishevel people will more than likely band together.

Our current situation may just not apply. Yes homeless do disappear in a city and why it works for them may not work in a PAW or worse case SHTF. A living person with no possessions still can provide value, even as food stock for some other group. So it really does not matter in that situation what you look like. Having a secure area can be much safer than moving into a unknown area. The odds are, a stranger will be viewed as dangerous. People are capable of concealing their motives and are capable of to doing all sort of nasty things.

As soon as you are seen, you are no longer invisible and have become a object of study or being a target. Even today, with our relative amount of law and order people do not open their homes up to complete strangers, some won't even do it for casual acquaintances. Why? probably fear of being preyed upon.

Gaining another person/group trust could be very difficult or impossible in a PAW/worse case SHTF. More than likely, avoidance will the rule. I would think groups would probably form based on previous relationships prior a PAW/WCSHTF. Most relationships today, form probably from convenience and not trust. Probably in my life time in the civilian world, I can probably count on people that I could trust 100% on one or two hands. Ask yourself today, who can you trust with everything that you hold dear. Then in a situation where death rules the world, could you still trust them. Of all the great things humans are and can be, they are also predators.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by ODA 226 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:50 pm

Hollis wrote:PAW and the worse case SHTF Scenario is purely theoretical at this point. How much disorder will their be? People historically have a habit of banding together, given a fair amount of time after any dishevel people will more than likely band together.

Our current situation may just not apply. Yes homeless do disappear in a city and why it works for them may not work in a PAW or worse case SHTF. A living person with no possessions still can provide value, even as food stock for some other group. So it really does not matter in that situation what you look like. Having a secure area can be much safer than moving into a unknown area. The odds are, a stranger will be viewed as dangerous. People are capable of concealing their motives and are capable of to doing all sort of nasty things.

As soon as you are seen, you are no longer invisible and have become a object of study or being a target. Even today, with our relative amount of law and order people do not open their homes up to complete strangers, some won't even do it for casual acquaintances. Why? probably fear of being preyed upon.

Gaining another person/group trust could be very difficult or impossible in a PAW/worse case SHTF. More than likely, avoidance will the rule. I would think groups would probably form based on previous relationships prior a PAW/WCSHTF. Most relationships today, form probably from convenience and not trust. Probably in my life time in the civilian world, I can probably count on people that I could trust 100% on one or two hands. Ask yourself today, who can you trust with everything that you hold dear. Then in a situation where death rules the world, could you still trust them. Of all the great things humans are and can be, they are also predators.
IMVHO, you knocked that one clean out of the park! Excellent post!
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by DarkAxel » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:43 pm

Omega DR wrote:
Until PAW actually happens, in this country, you or anyone can only speculate on what it will actual look like. Even in those countries where it has happened, Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, Somalia, each situation was total different. So before dismissing anything, consider others have had vastly different experiences than you and MAY have something to add, from real world experience.
Telling us what your real-world experiences are can be a huge help in understanding where you are coming from.

Let me tell you what I've taken away from this thread:

1. If you are seen, you may be a target. This is true regardless of what a person looks like or is wearing.

2. The Grey Man tactic may increase your chances of survival during a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI, but relying on it alone isn't smart. Not every situation calls for the Grey Man approach, and people should be flexible in the application of ANY survival tactic.

This is what I've gathered from reading this whole thread. I haven't seen anyone advocating stomping around the PAW geared for war here. Doing that is just as stupid as relying on a brown backpack to keep you safe. The smart thing is to be flexible, be able to transition from uninteresting and unobtrusive to full-out guns blazing if the situation calls for it, and knowing WHEN to change tactics.

You mention Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, and Somalia and state that they were completely different. I would challenge that. In the Former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, and Darfur, people were targeted for genocide simply because they were ethnically different from others. In all three cases those committing genocide had the backing of their governments. I'll grant you Somalia was different, but there was still tribal warfare. I will grant that studying these particular cases may not directly apply to the United States, but we can still learn from the way people reacted to TEOTWAWKI in those countries. People are people, no matter where they come from.

BTW, I've never been to any of those places, but I have had military training by people who were in Bosnia and Somalia.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by prtp3warrior » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:44 am

ODA 226 wrote:PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE POSTING COMMENTS IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO ALREADY!!!! THANKS!




4. The "Grey Man" does not exist!

:!:
Precisely. Just had to say it. I really enjoy reading through this debate.

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by ODA 226 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:58 pm

prtp3warrior wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE POSTING COMMENTS IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO ALREADY!!!! THANKS!




4. The "Grey Man" does not exist!

:!:
Precisely. Just had to say it. I really enjoy reading through this debate.
And thank you for taking the time to read through this thread in its entirety and then making an informed opinion! :D
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by proteus » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:35 am

Hello to ZS,

I am fairly new to the sight and have mostly just been a lurker till now but this topics is to great not to give my .02 on, so here goes...

I think the whole concept of what a PAW/SHTF scenario is has to be defined because without that this topics is being discussed on to many levels of threat: IMHO having to leave due to a hurricane, tornado, Katrina incident does not count for what OD 226 is talking about. In those situation there is a reasonable assurance that proper law and order will be restored, the government has not collapsed, people will be held liable for there actions and order will be restored...eventually. People will loot and commit crimes and it is a dangerous scenario no doubt, but its not a PAW.

Going back to ODA 226's first point in this discussion:
"The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Postby ODA 226 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:09 pm
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE POSTING COMMENTS IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO ALREADY!!!! THANKS!


As most that have been here for a while know, I believe that the "Grey Man" theory that many here have accepted as being the "Survival Gospel", as utter hogwash. I intend that this post be provactive in order to stimulate a constructive debate, not a mudslinging contest. Here are my views honed from real world experiences:

1. I believe that there is no such thing as the "Grey Man". In a SHTF situation where there is a near total destruction of accepted sociatal norms,(whether temporary or permanent), violent and or desperate people will attack you and take anything that they believe to be of value to them or anything that will help them survive.


The PAW scenario means there is no likelihood of law/order being restored in the foreseeable future nor will there be any government entity in place, there will be no cavalry to come to the rescue, there is no civilization any more, which means no food shipments, no medical supplies, no supplies left for the general public.

Unless I misunderstood what ODA 226 is talking about its a zombi movie or something similar to The Road and its every last man/woman or group for themselves. In this case law and order have been thrown out the window and people will do whatever they have to to survive. The closest thing that resembles this that we have is an active war zone/siege scenario. The experiences ODA 226 and other members of the military in these scenarios are without equal IMO. The ability for someone to move through a mob, because at this point its not a crowd anymore, becomes moot. If you have great that is of value, something that will feed a starving person, defend a person, or just looks like something another person wants it doesnt matter what color you bag is, if you are carrying it in a garbage bag or if you have it in a latest Kifaru/Eberlestock combat pack you will be seen as a source of sustenance and a target by said mob. At this point being "grey" is about as useful as tits on a bull so to speak. The mob, group, even the lone starving guy will try to take what you have if they think they can take it or even if it cost them there lives sometimes. Starving/desperate people do some really really stupid shit. They dont stop and think about their actions, they dont consider the consequences of what they may be doing...they are starving and desperate they will claw your eyes out for you boots your last cliff bar or anything else they can pull off of you. I have seen this personally all over the world and it doesnt matter how much people blended in or not. ass soon as someone had something of value they were a target. So in this situation unless you have the predators active camouflage system being grey is not a possibility. The fact that we are "prepers" means we will in just about any situation have more supplies and gear and food and guns/bullets/beans and whatever else you personally think is important to stock up on then the general public. and as long as there are other survivors who haven't taken the time and forethought to prep for the PAW you will ALWAYS be seen as a TARGET. Even an Overt show of force may not be enough to dissuade a starving individual or group from attempting to take what you have. The only thing that will keep you 100% out of a confrontation is not to be seen at all by other people. so the only means of going grey in a PAW is never to be seen, anything short of that is not "grey" its a nice shade of brown...also refereed to as crap IMHO. Now in all other situations like I stated before its a completely different topic...there will be a government, police will eventually come, and trying not to be noticed may actually be of benefit. That's my two cents.

Respectfully,

-Erick
Last edited by proteus on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by ODA 226 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:27 am

proteus wrote:Hello to ZS,

I am fairly new to the sight and have mostly just been a lurker till now but this topics is to great not to give my .02 on, so here goes...

I think the whole concept of what a PAW/SHTF scenario is has to be defined because without that this topics is being discussed on to many level of threat: IMHO having to heave due to a hurricane, tornado, Katrina incident does not count for what OD 226 is talking about. In those situation there is a reasonable assurance that proper law and order will be restored, the government has not collapsed, people will be held liable for there actions and order will be restored...eventually. People will loot and commit crimes and it is a dangerous scenario no doubt, but its not a PAW.

Going back to ODA 226's first point in this discussion:
"The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Postby ODA 226 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:09 pm
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE POSTING COMMENTS IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO ALREADY!!!! THANKS!


As most that have been here for a while know, I believe that the "Grey Man" theory that many here have accepted as being the "Survival Gospel", as utter hogwash. I intend that this post be provactive in order to stimulate a constructive debate, not a mudslinging contest. Here are my views honed from real world experiences:

1. I believe that there is no such thing as the "Grey Man". In a SHTF situation where there is a near total destruction of accepted sociatal norms,(whether temporary or permanent), violent and or desperate people will attack you and take anything that they believe to be of value to them or anything that will help them survive.


The PAW scenario means there is no likelihood of law/order being restored in the foreseeable future nor will there be any government entity in place, there will be no cavalry to come to the rescue, there is no civilization any more, which means no food shipments, no medical supplies, no supplies left for the general public.

Unless I misunderstood what ODA 226 is talking about its a zombi movie or something similar to The Road and its every last man/woman or group for themselves. In this case law and order have been thrown out the window and people will do whatever they have to to survive. The closest thing that resembles this that we have is an active war zone/siege scenario. The experiences ODA 226 and other members of the military in these scenarios are without equal IMO. The ability for someone to move through a mob, because at this point its not a crowd anymore, becomes moot. If you have great that is of value, something that will feed a starving person, defend a person, or just looks like something another person wants it doesnt matter what color you bag is, if you are carrying it in a garbage bag or if you have it in a latest Kifaru/Eberlestock combat pack you will be seen as a source of sustenance and a target by said mob. At this point being "grey" is about as useful as tits on a bull so to speak. The mob, group, even the lone starving guy will try to take what you have if they think they can take it or even if it cost them there lives sometimes. Starving/desperate people do some really really stupid shit. They dont stop and think about their actions, they dont consider the consequences of what they may be doing...they are starving and desperate they will claw your eyes out for you boots your last cliff bar or anything else they can pull off of you. I have seen this personally all over the world and it doesnt matter how much people blended in or not. ass soon as someone had something of value they were a target. So in this situation unless you have the predators active camouflage system being grey is not a possibility. The fact that we are "prepers" means we will in just about any situation have more supplies and gear and food and guns/bullets/beans and whatever else you personally think is important to stock up on then the general public. and as long as there are other survivors who haven't taken the time and forethought to prep for the PAW you will ALWAYS be seen as a TARGET. Even an Overt show of force may not be enough to dissuade a starving individual or group from attempting to take what you have. The only thing that will keep you 100% out of a confrontation is not to be seen at all by other people. so the only means of going grey in a PAW is never to be seen, anything short of that is not "grey" its a nice shade of brown...also refereed to as crap IMHO. Now in all other situations like I stated before its a completely different topic...there will be a government, police will eventually come, and trying not to be noticed may actually be of benefit. That's my two cents.

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by Willmark » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:54 pm

New to the site but a long time lurker.

I've read through this thread and the only thing I can equate this theory to is martial arts and when people discuss which one is "best". In other words if one martial art was the best wouldn't everyone do it? Same applies to survival strategies, if one tactic worked the best everyone would "do" it.

Much like the movie Wargames "the only winning move is not to play." despite having firearms and a strong believer in the 2nd ammendment last thing I want to do is get in a Firefight in a PAW. Too many chances of things going bad. How does this apply to the gray man theory. Ideally (if I had to) I'd want to be as inconspicuous as possible yes, but first I'd rather be away from everyone if possible. I agree if we are talking full blown PAW then nothing is going to save you.

I'd add that being a bum is going to make you as easily to notice as the yahoos that are going run to Wally World in their tac armor and AR 15s ;) Each is an extreme.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by prtp3warrior » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:20 am

ODA 226 wrote:
prtp3warrior wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE POSTING COMMENTS IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO ALREADY!!!! THANKS!




4. The "Grey Man" does not exist!

:!:
Precisely. Just had to say it. I really enjoy reading through this debate.
And thank you for taking the time to read through this thread in its entirety and then making an informed opinion! :D

You are welcome. I read this one and its counterpart fully. They are great discussions. If you truly want to be grey, it is not the gear that will make you that...though your dress could play a part in some situations as discussed throughout these two threads. One can, with care, be less visible when they need to.

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by Brymstone666 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:37 pm

This is a very good thread, the opinions and viewpoints expressed throughout it's entirety have valid points and represent a wide spectrum of experience and hypothetical thinking that reflects each individual's own interpretation of how things will play out in various situations.

That being said I believe everyone's own judgement, experience and training will dictate how they react to a crisis or cataclysmic event.

Dependent upon what kind of crisis or catastrophe has occurred, each person will put into effect their own personal survival strategies and tactics.

To say one strategy is better than another is mere speculation until it has actually been implemented and it's success or failure determined by the outcome achieved.

We can,however, look at past events and learn from the strategies employed by those that sucessfully survived and from those strategies that failed to help us develop our own plan of action should we find ourselves in similar situations. This is how most militaries of the world train, success and failures from wars, conflicts and other operations are assessed based upon what went right and what went wrong. Their training programs evolve and adapt as they are constantly updated/changed by each successive military victory or defeat.

I believe the best thing to do is look at past situations that may help us develop a successful survival strategy rather than base a plan on conjecture and hypothetical variables.

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by g211 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:20 am

My 2 cents:

Obscurity is to security, as concealment is to cover.

'Gray Man' is just camouflage, and it defends against assault in exactly the same way that Multicam stops bullets (i.e. not at all). Grey Man and Multicam are both fine things, but anyone who thinks that either is a 'survival strategy', is probably going to end up being somebody else's dinner real quick.

There is no security in obscurity.

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by mystic_1 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:19 pm

[quote="g211"Obscurity is to security, as concealment is to cover.[/quote]


I like that a lot.

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by OldSchool45b » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:09 pm

Having been in a few situations in environments that were not much better than what a PAW may be, I have seen how the Grey Man plays out. He tends to attract the attention of everyone around that is vigilant. He is scrutinized, his actions and movements watched carefully and there is usually one or more gun on him. When people are about and interacting, especially when people are starving and resources are in short supply, people that seem to pay it no mind or casually observe draw suspicion. I have seen this on three continents.

WHY doesn't that individual try to get involved and get something for themselves.
Why do they casually try to observe the going on?
Why is that person getting no attention from the stronger members of the gathered group?
Is there negative attention being given to that person?

The last two are very telling, either the person is someone not to be messed with or they have already been beaten down and made a non issue. But someone nullified them at some point. Badguys as we have all seen like to pick on the weak because they are easy targets. I for one would rather project an image of overwhelming force and intensity when dealing with strangers and crowds. When we first got into country we had medium MG's and a few heavies. They liked to light us up for shits and giggles. When we got our MK-19 and miniguns they never tried it again except in large forces. Not saying everyone has access to that kind of firepower obviously, but the principle is sound. Increase the perceived risk to the attackers and they will give you distance. Especially in an environment where a simple cut, let alone gunshot could have fatal consequences.

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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by Hollis » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:48 pm

IMHO, for the "grey man" tactic to work it requires a large body to disappear in.

Old expression, "Can not see the tree, for the forest." A tree in the a desert is very noticeable. During rush hour down town Chicago, thousands of people are about, blending it will work. Dressing up a Bear a person would be all to obvious. A person scanning the multitudes will look for differences. The the numbers of people decreases the grey man tactic looses it's advantage.

Even in war a single person outside of the wire is suspect, even if that person is a part of the group inside the wire. Until they are identified, they are a hazard. Grey man works if you can get lost in a herd of people and be just like the rest of the herd.

During the American Civil war, nearing the end, soldiers would not wear rank, looking different meant being a higher value target. While every one in a battle line is a target one did not want to "Stand out".

While the tactic is interesting to know, I really don't see it of much value in a PAW.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by NamelessStain » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:52 pm

Hollis wrote: During the American Civil war, nearing the end, soldiers would not wear rank, looking different meant being a higher value target. While every one in a battle line is a target one did not want to "Stand out".
I remember a show on the History Channel that talked about a US sniper in Vietnam. The OIC didn't wear rank so he wouldn't be easily identified. To paraphrase the sniper "I looked for the guy pointing a lot. People in charge like to point" He got his target and crept away.

My point (bad pun) is; it's not only how you appear, it's your mannerisms that may give you away.
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Re: The Myth of "The Grey Man"

Post by NWmountaineer » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:17 pm

Tagged.
Last edited by NWmountaineer on Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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