EMP, Why bother?

[mzmadmike]

With a CME-induced geomagnetic storm, anything not plugged into the power grid or a very large antenna will be just fine.

There are scientists who disagree with you.

And what isn't plugged into the power grid these days?

[Rev]

I myself plan for aliens... Not really, because the bastards would probably use simple kinetic weapons on urban and industrial centers and there's not much I can do for that outside what I'm doing to prep for other disasters. I do plan on getting a .50 cal though since it's about the most powerful thing a civilian can own. If it's not enough, it's time to embrace our new alien overlords. When it comes to EMP, I prep for it just like everything else. Hell, I can see no difference prep wise other than keeping some back up electronics in simple faraday cages. The only real thing for preppers to worry about with EMP is the sudden collapse. This means that you better be armed and have already networked with other people in your community. Things you should be doing anyway! I really don’t see why people are fighting over this at all.

[Bunsen]

There are scientists who disagree with you.

And what isn't plugged into the power grid these days?

I'd like to read what those scientists have to say on the matter, then. All the information I can find indicates that during a CME-induced storm, geomagnetic induced currents vary on timescales of minutes, which is DC from a power grid perspective. That means it doesn't get coupled across transformers, so only hardware with a DC connection to miles of suspended wire (i.e. the bigass transformers) is directly vulnerable. Secondary failures might cause other problems, but would still be pretty far removed from household-level service. Your house should only see the current induced in the loop formed by your service line and the ground, going as far as the nearest transformer. That's small enough that the induced voltage should be negligible, unless your nearest transformer is freakishly far away.

[Glennbo]

Hurricane, Why bother?
Nuclear War, Why bother?
Economic Collapse, Why bother?
Zombies, Why bother?

This is a preparedness forum. Preparing for the worse and hoping for the best.

Some of the responses on this thread sound like the stuff we all hear from non-preppers.

Excellent post. My feelings exactly.

There seems to be an inordinate amount of willful denial on this forum when this subject comes up, as if people just can't wrap their heads around the concept and extrapolate the consequences. Weird. Guess they need proof.

[Silent Kube]

Meh. While I love my electronics, I've set myself up where I think I could get by without them.

Does that include your car, your phone, your water, your gas, your sewage system, all stores, and electricity?

As a matter of fact, yes. People got along just fine without these things for a long long log time. Just because society has gotten spoiled and convinced the need them now doesn't mean that they wouldn't get by just fine without them. Also, if I absolutely needed a car, I have my 73 chevy. No electronics and I have the know-how to make my own fuel. With the proper knowledge, one can get by with very little.

[DarkAxel]

Not too worried about EMP. There are members of my family still living that can remember when the first power lines were brought into this area. Up until recently (Like around the time of LBJ's visit) electricity was a luxury. My family had to install the first plumbing this house has ever seen when we moved in. For three years after moving in here, I had to go to the outhouse to um.. do my business. Hell, septic tanks were just made mandatory in my home county around fifteen years ago, and we just got city water out this way last year. I still use the well.

There's a lot to be said for being a hillbilly.

Funny thing is, the powers-that-be have already thought about EMP and have taken measures to protect things from it. Planes have shielded wiring. Hell, Abrams tanks have shielded wiring. An EMP isn't gonna take out the Internet, the Stock Exchange, or NORAD. The only thing an EMP will do is damage unshielded systems like the power grid, and most of the newer transformers have safeguards against power spikes.

I live almost within spitting distance of a power sub-station, so I see men in yellow hats all the time. I once asked one about EMP after a History Channel show about TEOTWAWKI (I think it was during Armageddon Week), and his response was a huge laugh. The guy was seriously crying he was laughing so hard. Then he showed me the little switch that trips during a power spike, the other switch that trips if the juice makes it past the first switch, and the third switch that trips just in case GE totally fucked up when they built the thing. There's over 125 Million bucks worth of equipment setting across the road from my house, and you can damn well be sure that American Electric Power is gonna protect that investment. So, at worst, the power guys have to drive around and throw breakers on transformers for a few days, maybe replace some of the older ones. As far as the little gizmos and gadgets we love so much, they might be damaged or destroyed, but keeping your shit inside a house or garage with a metal roof will protect most of it.

Geppato is right about something, though. Most Cold War nuclear attack plans began with a high-altitude airburst before the main strike. If an EMP ever went off over the US, then nuclear war would shortly follow.

So Yes, an EMP or CME will take down the grid. But so will a fat bird or an untrimmed tree (Northwest Blackout of 2003, anyone?).

This post brought to you by massive insomnia, and six Benadryl that didn't do shit to knock me out.

[kiwilrdg]

Meh. While I love my electronics, I've set myself up where I think I could get by without them.

Does that include your car, your phone, your water, your gas, your sewage system, all stores, and electricity?

Car: My 73 beetle has no electronics and I have replacement electrical parts available if anything does fry.
Phone: I hate it anyway
Water: Ram pump is ready to be reinstalled
Gas: I would eat more beans so I would have more gas, but my house has no gas
Sewage system: If the EMP knocks out gravity and decompositional flora so my septic doesn't work I think I would be dead too
Stores: We do a lot of bartering already
Electricity: A little inconvenient.

Step away from the computer and get a life.

[mzmadmike]

Meh. While I love my electronics, I've set myself up where I think I could get by without them.

Does that include your car, your phone, your water, your gas, your sewage system, all stores, and electricity?

Car: My 73 beetle has no electronics and I have replacement electrical parts available if anything does fry.
Phone: I hate it anyway
Water: Ram pump is ready to be reinstalled
Gas: I would eat more beans so I would have more gas, but my house has no gas
Sewage system: If the EMP knocks out gravity and decompositional flora so my septic doesn't work I think I would be dead too
Stores: We do a lot of bartering already
Electricity: A little inconvenient.

Step away from the computer and get a life.

The carrying capacity of this continent without modern infrastructure for food production and delivery is 100 million people.

There are 400 million people on this continent.

It ain't all about you, bucko.

Bunsen: Care to assign me, say, $40,000 against the possibility? Since you know all the answers and are sure it can't be a problem. Make sure it's in gold, because otherwise I won't be able to collect.

As to man made stuff, it's done damage before, without the use of a dedicated device: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse the Starfish Prime test certainly did induce high voltage in lines.

FYI, the USAF has an EMP generating bomb--non nuclear--so apparently they believe it to be a legitimate, effective weapon.


Don't worry, though. It'll never happen, zombies aren't real, most disasters aren't that severe, 400 million other people don't really matter and won't complicate things, there's never been an earthquake that severe in our history, the odds against a massive volcanic eruption are in our favor, and even if it does happen, it'll just be like a camping trip, because disasters are FUN!

Have some chips and go play WoW.

[phil_in_cs]

...Awesomeness...

Good post

[mzmadmike]

I'd like to read what those scientists have to say on the matter, then.

National Academy of Science work for you?

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12507

Notice a really MINOR event cost several billion in workarounds and probably took out a satellite.

A major one was documented to melt transmission lines.

[kiwilrdg]

It ain't all about you, bucko.

Yes it is!!!!!

My preps are about my community.

If the question is why bother then I have given a reason why I am not worried. If others are not in the same situation then they might need to decide what is important for them.

[Stab74]

Step away from the computer and get a life.

[kiwilrdg]

kiwilrdg wrote:
Step away from the computer and get a life.

And when it is separated from the other things I have done/would do it sounds way too snarky. Sorry, but I can't see the picture that Stab74 posted.

[Silent Kube]

The carrying capacity of this continent without modern infrastructure for food production and delivery is 100 million people.

There are 400 million people on this continent.

It ain't all about you, bucko.

You're right about that. In the event of a major disaster the reality is that a lot of people won't make it. That's why I prep in the first place, so I'm not one of them. I just don't see...

1. Why I should prep specifically for an emp. Of all possible scenarios, this one seems one of the least likely.

2. How there is anything I can do to protect myself from emp. Most of the major problems from an emp will happen no mater what I do. Short of protecting my personal electronics, none of which I can't live without. If an emp will take out infrastructure then it will no matter what I do about it. The best I can do is prep for societal collapse in general. I don't see the point in focusing on something I have no control over.

[kiwilrdg]

What prep for EMP is there that is not part of other preps?

[Bunsen]

I'd like to read what those scientists have to say on the matter, then.

National Academy of Science work for you?

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12507

It certainly does, but that report seems to support my previous assertions. On the ground (satellites are another matter entirely), only things directly connected to miles of elevated wire are prone to damage. Stuff plugged into the outlets at home should suffer no damage, just a loss of power.

Notice a really MINOR event cost several billion in workarounds and probably took out a satellite.

A major one was documented to melt transmission lines.

Which one melted transmission lines? I can't find anything about that. As for the satellites, those are vulnerable to damage in ways that anything protected by the atmosphere isn't: direct radiation damage to the circuitry and solar panels, and static charging on exposed surfaces. Since we've come to better understand those things in the last few decades, modern satellites are designed to resist them better than the older ones were. Plenty of them would still be damaged in a large storm, though, and even those that weren't damaged would likely suffer service disruptions during the storm.

But we had been talking about hardware on the ground, and when you said "You MIGHT salvage alternators from cars to run on wind or water power. It depends on inductance levels," it sounded to me like you were saying there would be widespread damage to common electronic devices. That simply isn't the case.

[Rev]

What prep for EMP is there that is not part of other preps?

This

[grennels]

FYI: The Astronomical Observatories of Caltech (Where I work) Are busily shielding all kinds of sensitive "one of a kind" electronics, and getting spares on the shelf for the more common stuff. As the IT manager at one of the Observatories, I am being thrust into this. One thing we are doing is all new network cable is now Shielded twisted pair. Also, Instrument wiring packages are being wrapped with Shielding and we are installing Lightning arrestors all over the place on the theory that they will take the pulse, instead of the device.

Contingency plans are a part of the job, for the first time in my IT career.

I don't think lighting arrestors will help. An EMP pulse peaks much faster than than a
lightning induced pulse. So fast that a typical lightning arrestor won't even see it.

[grennels]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

[JakkSchitt]

National Geographic is having a show tonight called Electronic Armegeddon. Its part of their "explorer" program.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/s ... 1/Overview

[johnwiseman]

Wow, has this post done well. Thanks.

I might reiterate, I am a prepper, but I like to keep my prepping sane. There are lots of things you can try to prep for that are simply EOE events and therefore unlivable. Big nasty comets, Nukes, Huge solar flare ups, Rosanne Bar on a nude beach. I don't care to waste my time prepping for those things. I do care to prep for the stuff I might actually make it through. Like zombies and aliens and tornadoes and junk.

[Silent Kube]

It's all about picking your battles. For instance, there are dozens, if not hundreds of silos near me, so in the case of a nuke attack I'm not gonna make it no matter how much I prep. Same goes for emp, I don't see anything I can do keeping the grid from failing so I just prep in general and hope it's enough. No matter what the problem is I see there being at least temporary power failure so I am prepped for that.

[Geppato]

I think that it should be discussed, that EMP will fry electronics... and wires...

People are talking about their older vehicles, they still require a spark from the battery and EMP will more than likely fry all electrical wires to that battery.

[Silent Kube]

A pulse strong enough to melt wires will likely be enough to fry brains. Thus you wouldn't need to worry about a car.