EMP, Why bother?

[kiwilrdg]

I don't agree with a "why bother" attitude. Why bother with anything since we're all gonna die anyway. In fact why not just die now and get it over with?


LOL you should start a website based on this premise!

Good point. We know we will die without a SHTF situation so it doesn't matter what happens.

[Stab74]

I don't agree with a "why bother" attitude. Why bother with anything since we're all gonna die anyway. In fact why not just die now and get it over with?


LOL you should start a website based on this premise!

Good point. We know we will die without a SHTF situation so it doesn't matter what happens.

You know I think you just convinced me to not try to quit smoking again!

[rpc]

Here's my take on the subject as an educated layperson. Sorry, I don't have any cites handy, but I have done probably more than the average amount of reading on the subject. (And "reading" means articles printed in various technical journals.)

While not impossible, it seems to me very unlikely that any plausible EMP event will cause widespread destruction of individual electronic devices that are not connected to some sort of "antenna". This would include electronic ignitions and computers in most vehicles. The EMP itself does not cause any damage to electronics. What causes damage is voltages that are induced in conductors that are within the field. Generally, the conductor must be relatively long (in the order of a couple of feet or longer).

Most electronic devices that are just sitting on the shelf will not be damaged, because they are not connected to a sufficiently long "antenna". Undoubtedly, there will be exceptions, but IMHO, they will be quite rare.

Automobiles pose a special case, because they are large enough that they will have some internal wiring that will serve as an "antenna". Most of that wiring is somewhat shielded by the body of the vehicle, although it's not particularly well shielded. So there could be some damage to vehicles, although IMHO, it would still be relatively rare. Electronic ignitions would be relatively difficult to damage, IMHO. Computers would be more prone to damage. I suspect some will be rendered unusable, and a few might default into a "limp home" mode. But my guess (and this is just a guess, since we've never conducted an experiment of detonating a nuclear weapon in space above a populated area) is that most would survive.

That's the good news. The bad news is that the likelihood of damage to grid-connected devices is much more plausible, because they are connected to a long "antenna". So the TV that is plugged in to the wall at the moment of the EMP could quite possible be rendered unusable. Now, I'm not particularly concerned about my television, or anything else that is plugged in at my house. Even if all of those items are destroyed, I typically have spare versions of anything that I really need. Even if those spare devices are just sitting on the shelf, they should be fine, even if no special protective measures have been taken.

The real problem, though, is that the infrastructure (the power and communications grids) are very vulnerable. Let's assume that 10% of the electronic devices hooked to the grid are damaged. As a thought experiment, let's think about what would happen if we went around our respective neighborhoods and randomly destroyed 10% of the things that are hooked to the powerlines, telephone lines, Cable TV lines, etc. It seems to me that these systems would cease to function completely, and it would take extensive manpower and supplies to get them working again.

And if any needed supplies come from factories, then those factories are probably without power. So, in short, it's going to be a big mess.

The long and short of it is that all of your electronic devices (including your car) are probably going to be unscathed. Unfortunately, there won't be anything to plug them in to, and there certainly won't be any fuel available for the vehicle, since the refinery is also in the dark. And besides, I really can't think of too many good reasons to be driving around in a private vehicle in that situation.

Now, as far as the plausibility of such an attack, I really don't see any plausible way in which there would be a standalone EMP attack against the United States. Such an attack would require the detonation of a nuclear weapon on the edge of space, and would require that the weapon be delivered by rocket.

Currently, the countries that would be capable of doing this would be Russia, China, France, Britain, and maybe Israel, India, or Pakistan. If one of these countries did this, it would be a nuclear attack on the United States, and would certainly result in retaliation. It would make no sense for one of these countries to launch such an attack, if that was the only attack that was planned. They would be destroyed in the process, in exchange for conducting an attack by a method that has never been tested.

An EMP attack would be plausible, but only as one of the first shots of a general nuclear war. These countries all have enough nuclear weapons that they might possibly use one in such an untested attack, with most of them reserved for their more traditional purpose. So an EMP attack by any of these countries is almost certainly merely a predecessor to a general nuclear attack.

Now, let's assume that some new member joins the nuclear club. I suppose this could be Iran, North Korea, or a non-state group. At the present time, these countries have very few nuclear weapons. IMHO, it would make no sense for them to waste a weapon on an untested effect, when the other effects of nuclear weapons are so well known. There's really no good reason to go with an EMP attack, even if you had more certainty that it would work. Knocking out all of America's electronics isn't particularly any more spectacular than blowing up New York City. Since blowing up New York City is so much easier (and predictable in effects), that's really the most logical thing to do with your precious nuclear weapon.

Also, delivering the weapon is considerably easier if you use it in the traditional fashion. If you want to blow up a city, you can bring the weapon there by airplane, truck, boat, etc., etc. But for EMP, you really only have one choice, and that's to use a rocket. And even the best rockets sometimes blow up when you try to launch them. If you have 100 nuclear weapons, that's a risk you might be willing to take. But if you only have one, would you strap it to a rocket and hope for the best? Or would you put it on the back of a truck, knowing that trucks rarely blow up when you start them.

For those reasons, it seems to me quite certain that a standalone nuclear EMP event is exceedingly unlikely. If there is one, it will instead be the first shot of a general nuclear war. On the other hand, it might not be an apocolyptic war. But some other nukes would almost certainly be going off somewhere on American soil in pretty short order. Now, the United States is the country to have experience more nuclear explosions on its soil than any other country one earth, so this does not necessarily mean that it is the end of the world and that survival will be impossible. But the EMP itself will be basically just a footnote to the other things that are happening.

The long and short of it is that it would be embarassing to live through a nuclear war totally unscathed and then die a few months later due to starvation. So I think nuclear wars are things that one ought to give some thought for preparing for. Part of those preparations might include some electronic devices, and a method of powering them. If you want to be absolutely certain that those devices will survive, then it wouldn't hurt to seal them in a metal container. But IMHO, that's probably not necessary.

Now, a closely related subject would be some sort of solar event, such as happened in 1859. IMHO, the effects of such an event would be similar to an EMP attack--individual electronic equipment would weather the storm just fine, but the grid might be damaged to such an extent that it would be dark for months or years while replacement parts are manufactured. So giving some thought to planning for a very extended power outage is prudent, IMHO.

[raptor]

Here's my take on the subject as an educated layperson. Sorry, I don't have any cites handy, but I have done probably more than the average amount of reading on the subject. (And "reading" means articles printed in various technical journals.)

While not impossible, it seems to me very unlikely that any plausible EMP event will cause widespread destruction of individual electronic devices that are not connected to some sort of "antenna". This would include electronic ignitions and computers in most vehicles. The EMP itself does not cause any damage to electronics. What causes damage is voltages that are induced in conductors that are within the field. Generally, the conductor must be relatively long (in the order of a couple of feet or longer).

Most electronic devices that are just sitting on the shelf will not be damaged, because they are not connected to a sufficiently long "antenna". Undoubtedly, there will be exceptions, but IMHO, they will be quite rare.

Automobiles pose a special case, because they are large enough that they will have some internal wiring that will serve as an "antenna". Most of that wiring is somewhat shielded by the body of the vehicle, although it's not particularly well shielded. So there could be some damage to vehicles, although IMHO, it would still be relatively rare. Electronic ignitions would be relatively difficult to damage, IMHO. Computers would be more prone to damage. I suspect some will be rendered unusable, and a few might default into a "limp home" mode. But my guess (and this is just a guess, since we've never conducted an experiment of detonating a nuclear weapon in space above a populated area) is that most would survive.

That's the good news. The bad news is that the likelihood of damage to grid-connected devices is much more plausible, because they are connected to a long "antenna". So the TV that is plugged in to the wall at the moment of the EMP could quite possible be rendered unusable. Now, I'm not particularly concerned about my television, or anything else that is plugged in at my house. Even if all of those items are destroyed, I typically have spare versions of anything that I really need. Even if those spare devices are just sitting on the shelf, they should be fine, even if no special protective measures have been taken.

The real problem, though, is that the infrastructure (the power and communications grids) are very vulnerable. Let's assume that 10% of the electronic devices hooked to the grid are damaged. As a thought experiment, let's think about what would happen if we went around our respective neighborhoods and randomly destroyed 10% of the things that are hooked to the powerlines, telephone lines, Cable TV lines, etc. It seems to me that these systems would cease to function completely, and it would take extensive manpower and supplies to get them working again.

And if any needed supplies come from factories, then those factories are probably without power. So, in short, it's going to be a big mess.

The long and short of it is that all of your electronic devices (including your car) are probably going to be unscathed. Unfortunately, there won't be anything to plug them in to, and there certainly won't be any fuel available for the vehicle, since the refinery is also in the dark. And besides, I really can't think of too many good reasons to be driving around in a private vehicle in that situation.

Now, as far as the plausibility of such an attack, I really don't see any plausible way in which there would be a standalone EMP attack against the United States. Such an attack would require the detonation of a nuclear weapon on the edge of space, and would require that the weapon be delivered by rocket.

Currently, the countries that would be capable of doing this would be Russia, China, France, Britain, and maybe Israel, India, or Pakistan. If one of these countries did this, it would be a nuclear attack on the United States, and would certainly result in retaliation. It would make no sense for one of these countries to launch such an attack, if that was the only attack that was planned. They would be destroyed in the process, in exchange for conducting an attack by a method that has never been tested.

An EMP attack would be plausible, but only as one of the first shots of a general nuclear war. These countries all have enough nuclear weapons that they might possibly use one in such an untested attack, with most of them reserved for their more traditional purpose. So an EMP attack by any of these countries is almost certainly merely a predecessor to a general nuclear attack.

Now, let's assume that some new member joins the nuclear club. I suppose this could be Iran, North Korea, or a non-state group. At the present time, these countries have very few nuclear weapons. IMHO, it would make no sense for them to waste a weapon on an untested effect, when the other effects of nuclear weapons are so well known. There's really no good reason to go with an EMP attack, even if you had more certainty that it would work. Knocking out all of America's electronics isn't particularly any more spectacular than blowing up New York City. Since blowing up New York City is so much easier (and predictable in effects), that's really the most logical thing to do with your precious nuclear weapon.

Also, delivering the weapon is considerably easier if you use it in the traditional fashion. If you want to blow up a city, you can bring the weapon there by airplane, truck, boat, etc., etc. But for EMP, you really only have one choice, and that's to use a rocket. And even the best rockets sometimes blow up when you try to launch them. If you have 100 nuclear weapons, that's a risk you might be willing to take. But if you only have one, would you strap it to a rocket and hope for the best? Or would you put it on the back of a truck, knowing that trucks rarely blow up when you start them.

For those reasons, it seems to me quite certain that a standalone nuclear EMP event is exceedingly unlikely. If there is one, it will instead be the first shot of a general nuclear war. On the other hand, it might not be an apocolyptic war. But some other nukes would almost certainly be going off somewhere on American soil in pretty short order. Now, the United States is the country to have experience more nuclear explosions on its soil than any other country one earth, so this does not necessarily mean that it is the end of the world and that survival will be impossible. But the EMP itself will be basically just a footnote to the other things that are happening.

The long and short of it is that it would be embarassing to live through a nuclear war totally unscathed and then die a few months later due to starvation. So I think nuclear wars are things that one ought to give some thought for preparing for. Part of those preparations might include some electronic devices, and a method of powering them. If you want to be absolutely certain that those devices will survive, then it wouldn't hurt to seal them in a metal container. But IMHO, that's probably not necessary.

Now, a closely related subject would be some sort of solar event, such as happened in 1859. IMHO, the effects of such an event would be similar to an EMP attack--individual electronic equipment would weather the storm just fine, but the grid might be damaged to such an extent that it would be dark for months or years while replacement parts are manufactured. So giving some thought to planning for a very extended power outage is prudent, IMHO.

Thank you that is good post with both good information and logic.

IMO planning for an extended power outage (for whatever reason) is both a reasonable and prudent use of a person's preparation resources.

[Dawgboy]

FYI: The Astronomical Observatories of Caltech (Where I work) Are busily shielding all kinds of sensitive "one of a kind" electronics, and getting spares on the shelf for the more common stuff. As the IT manager at one of the Observatories, I am being thrust into this. One thing we are doing is all new network cable is now Shielded twisted pair. Also, Instrument wiring packages are being wrapped with Shielding and we are installing Lightning arrestors all over the place on the theory that they will take the pulse, instead of the device.

Contingency plans are a part of the job, for the first time in my IT career.

[kiwilrdg]

Even if a global EMP is something you do not consider likely, a localized event like a lightning strike will take out electronics. Even a frequency variation or voltage droop or spike can mess up a lot of stuff. That is why I do not plan on not relying on any electronics that I do not have a non-electronic backup for.

[Neville]

I've decided that EMP is one of the (sadly many, many, disgustingly many) new Pornpocalypse memes that gets thrown about.

Unless someone can show me credible evidence that this is anything more than a theoretical threat, and that an EMP discharge large enough to fry infrastructure might not be accompanied by a subsequent nuclear holocaust large enough to fry people, food, and the entire terrain to the point that topographic maps won't work anymore, creating a SHTF so severe that the effects of EMP are the least of your worries....I'm just not gonna worry.

I'm preparing for power outages. Unless someone can show me credible evidence that an EMP would create power outages more severe and long-lasting than regular SHTF power outages without creating apocalypse conditions of things like radiation, blast waves, and frikkin sharks with frikkin laser beams, I'm going to file the concept in the folder titled:

"Things that are rare enough to not worry about, and that survival is contingent far more on luck than preps that it's not worth worrying about".

So you're saying you never heard of the 1859 Carrington event? That happened just about 150 years ago... if it happened today, the worldwide infrastructure would be FUBAR'D for years. Sure, it's not as common as say a hurricane or tornado, but it's just as real, and frankly it's about as frequent as the New Madrid fault cutting loose and wreaking havoc.

Your comment about

radiation, blast waves, and frikkin sharks with frikkin laser beams

shows you really have done next to nothing to educate yourself about EMP phenomena, how they occur, and what effects accompany them. It doesn't make any difference to me whether you do or not, but for your own sake (and to look like you actually know what you are talking about when you discuss such things on the internet) you may want to do a little reading up. I suggest starting with the EMP Commission Official Report, available online freely to anyone who can work a Google search.

[Silent Kube]

So are you saying that we should be prepping to keep infrastructure from failing? Prepping for me is a personal thing. I am prepped in case infrastructure does fail but I don't see what I can do to keep it from happening, whether it be from emp or other phenomenon. As an individual, I don't think I'd personally be effected enough to worry about it.

[Murph]

One thing we are doing is all new network cable is now Shielded twisted pair.

Holy shit?!... Welcome the the 21st century!!
CAT5e has been out since, what 2001? I personally would have gone fiber.

[RacinRob]

Here's my take on the subject as an educated layperson. Sorry, I don't have any cites handy, but I have done probably more than the average amount of reading on the subject. (And "reading" means articles printed in various technical journals.)

While not impossible, it seems to me very unlikely that any plausible EMP event will cause widespread destruction of individual electronic devices that are not connected to some sort of "antenna". This would include electronic ignitions and computers in most vehicles. The EMP itself does not cause any damage to electronics. What causes damage is voltages that are induced in conductors that are within the field. Generally, the conductor must be relatively long (in the order of a couple of feet or longer).

Most electronic devices that are just sitting on the shelf will not be damaged, because they are not connected to a sufficiently long "antenna". Undoubtedly, there will be exceptions, but IMHO, they will be quite rare.

I agree I am not really thinking that an EMP strike is worth preparing for on its own. However, throwing a radio and some batteries into an ammo can isn't too much extra to do.

Automobiles pose a special case, because they are large enough that they will have some internal wiring that will serve as an "antenna". Most of that wiring is somewhat shielded by the body of the vehicle, although it's not particularly well shielded. So there could be some damage to vehicles, although IMHO, it would still be relatively rare. Electronic ignitions would be relatively difficult to damage, IMHO. Computers would be more prone to damage. I suspect some will be rendered unusable, and a few might default into a "limp home" mode. But my guess (and this is just a guess, since we've never conducted an experiment of detonating a nuclear weapon in space above a populated area) is that most would survive.

]The body of a car is an antenna not shielding. Remember 99% of cars use a common ground system. So, the body will pipe the current into the electrical system. [/

That's the good news. The bad news is that the likelihood of damage to grid-connected devices is much more plausible, because they are connected to a long "antenna". So the TV that is plugged in to the wall at the moment of the EMP could quite possible be rendered unusable. Now, I'm not particularly concerned about my television, or anything else that is plugged in at my house. Even if all of those items are destroyed, I typically have spare versions of anything that I really need. Even if those spare devices are just sitting on the shelf, they should be fine, even if no special protective measures have been taken.

The real problem, though, is that the infrastructure (the power and communications grids) are very vulnerable. Let's assume that 10% of the electronic devices hooked to the grid are damaged. As a thought experiment, let's think about what would happen if we went around our respective neighborhoods and randomly destroyed 10% of the things that are hooked to the powerlines, telephone lines, Cable TV lines, etc. It seems to me that these systems would cease to function completely, and it would take extensive manpower and supplies to get them working again.

And if any needed supplies come from factories, then those factories are probably without power. So, in short, it's going to be a big mess.
Yes But even more than getting the factories going the lead time on transformers and stuff is just silly long.

The long and short of it is that all of your electronic devices (including your car) are probably going to be unscathed. Unfortunately, there won't be anything to plug them in to, and there certainly won't be any fuel available for the vehicle, since the refinery is also in the dark. And besides, I really can't think of too many good reasons to be driving around in a private vehicle in that situation.

Now, as far as the plausibility of such an attack, I really don't see any plausible way in which there would be a standalone EMP attack against the United States. Such an attack would require the detonation of a nuclear weapon on the edge of space, and would require that the weapon be delivered by rocket.

Currently, the countries that would be capable of doing this would be Russia, China, France, Britain, and maybe Israel, India, or Pakistan. If one of these countries did this, it would be a nuclear attack on the United States, and would certainly result in retaliation. It would make no sense for one of these countries to launch such an attack, if that was the only attack that was planned. They would be destroyed in the process, in exchange for conducting an attack by a method that has never been tested.

An EMP attack would be plausible, but only as one of the first shots of a general nuclear war. These countries all have enough nuclear weapons that they might possibly use one in such an untested attack, with most of them reserved for their more traditional purpose. So an EMP attack by any of these countries is almost certainly merely a predecessor to a general nuclear attack.

Now, let's assume that some new member joins the nuclear club. I suppose this could be Iran, North Korea, or a non-state group. At the present time, these countries have very few nuclear weapons. IMHO, it would make no sense for them to waste a weapon on an untested effect, when the other effects of nuclear weapons are so well known. There's really no good reason to go with an EMP attack, even if you had more certainty that it would work. Knocking out all of America's electronics isn't particularly any more spectacular than blowing up New York City. Since blowing up New York City is so much easier (and predictable in effects), that's really the most logical thing to do with your precious nuclear weapon.

Also, delivering the weapon is considerably easier if you use it in the traditional fashion. If you want to blow up a city, you can bring the weapon there by airplane, truck, boat, etc., etc. But for EMP, you really only have one choice, and that's to use a rocket. And even the best rockets sometimes blow up when you try to launch them. If you have 100 nuclear weapons, that's a risk you might be willing to take. But if you only have one, would you strap it to a rocket and hope for the best? Or would you put it on the back of a truck, knowing that trucks rarely blow up when you start them.

For those reasons, it seems to me quite certain that a standalone nuclear EMP event is exceedingly unlikely. If there is one, it will instead be the first shot of a general nuclear war. On the other hand, it might not be an apocolyptic war. But some other nukes would almost certainly be going off somewhere on American soil in pretty short order. Now, the United States is the country to have experience more nuclear explosions on its soil than any other country one earth, so this does not necessarily mean that it is the end of the world and that survival will be impossible. But the EMP itself will be basically just a footnote to the other things that are happening.

The long and short of it is that it would be embarassing to live through a nuclear war totally unscathed and then die a few months later due to starvation. So I think nuclear wars are things that one ought to give some thought for preparing for. Part of those preparations might include some electronic devices, and a method of powering them. If you want to be absolutely certain that those devices will survive, then it wouldn't hurt to seal them in a metal container. But IMHO, that's probably not necessary.

Now, a closely related subject would be some sort of solar event, such as happened in 1859. IMHO, the effects of such an event would be similar to an EMP attack--individual electronic equipment would weather the storm just fine, but the grid might be damaged to such an extent that it would be dark for months or years while replacement parts are manufactured. So giving some thought to planning for a very extended power outage is prudent, IMHO.

Personally I think of a major solar storm and an emp attack as the same thing since the effects would be much the same.

I think that turning your house into a faraday cage might be easier than you might think. Start off with a steel roof and aluminum eves. Then slap up aluminum siding. Use metal screens over the windows, and steel entry doors. Of course you would have to run ground straps to everything. A lightning arrester on the house and you are pretty well set. My understanding is that solar storms and emps are line of sight. That means that in the summer just the roof would almost be enough for my house since I have 3 foot eves that keep the sun out to help keep the house cool. In the winter I get a lot of direct sun light in the house because of lower angle of the sun.

If you do it right your cellphone probably won't work in the house.

[Nesrath]

Neither are zombies

As long as we don't get zombie strippers, that would really suck. They take your money and eat your brains.

[CryHavoc]

If you ever have advance warning of impending EMP (that's a very big 'if'), put your handheld devices in your microwave oven and unplug your microwave. It's got a variation of a Faraday cage that dissipates the radiation that makes your food hot.

While not impossible, it seems to me very unlikely that any plausible EMP event will cause widespread destruction of individual electronic devices that are not connected to some sort of "antenna". This would include electronic ignitions and computers in most vehicles.

What about the radio antenna in your car?

[SouthPAW]

I've got it covered man!

My prep for EMP-


I'm not a defeatist, but really, this is just crapola. Yes, prep for power outage. But come on, let's get real.

[KnightoftheRoc]

I aint no nook-yoo-ler engineer, and the only EMP effects I've seen were in the movie Broken Arrow. However, based on my high school physics classes, and the electrical training I do have, I don't think an EMP would "fry" the infrastructure as badly as people think it would. Electronic devices would be most vulnerable, but that would be because the magnetic wave would generate voltages indiscriminately within the device's circuits- even those inside the chips. More traditional, low tech electrical devices would weather the wave better, suffering only a hiccup in the voltages as the wave passed. Keep in mind, the wave is A: moving at about the speed of light (I don't remember the precise numbers), B: lasting an incredibly short amount of time- it is NOT a sustained effect, and C: any voltage spikes it creates in low tech devices will probably be able to be absorbed by that device's construction. ie; increased voltage = heat buildup = melt down, but ONLY if it lasts long enough to actually ramp up the conductor's temperature. Think of it as a really large version of the current draw a motor has when first starting. So, while the starter circuit in your car may weather it fine, your computer controlled electronic ignition likely wont- they can be awful touchy. Especially if active at the time. A sudden rise or fall of voltage levels while your car is running can wipe out an EI module- found out the expensive way.

So, flashlights, electric motors, and more importantly, generator plants, would likely be able to handle an EMP that isn't from a bomb close enough to wipe them out from the physical blast. This would mean that much of the electrical grid could be rebooted in pretty short order.

Now, the above is what I've gleaned from what I've read, and been taught, and much of it may now be outdated information. If so, someone please correct me. My point is (see? I had one all along!) that hi tech stuff like a GPS or cell phone, can be easily stored in an ammo can to protect it, and anything that can toast them in there, has already wiped out the infrastructures serving them. The preps for an EMP ALONE aren't complicated, time consuming, or expensive, and in many ways, simply serve as good physical protection for these devices.

EMP isn't really one of my primary concerns, but for any long term storage of stuff, I'd consider it as I planned it out. Also, one thing no one has seemed to address, is the electrical system of the human body. I suppose that a sufficiently strong enough EMP could short out the nervous system, but I'd think that at worst, it would cause a person to faint. Anything strong enough to actually kill with magnetism alone, has probably vaporized you in the process.

[CryHavoc]

I've got it covered man!

My prep for EMP-


I'm not a defeatist, but really, this is just crapola. Yes, prep for power outage. But come on, let's get real.

That's a nice hat, Man!

[53convert]

Because it just might not happen....do remember most advance civilizations didnt go down with a bang but with a whimper.....................and that is what your are preping for

[Vicarious_Lee]

So you're saying you never heard of the 1859 Carrington event? That happened just about 150 years ago... if it happened today, the worldwide infrastructure would be FUBAR'D.

Your comment about

radiation, blast waves, and frikkin sharks with frikkin laser beams

shows you really have done next to nothing to educate yourself about EMP phenomena, how they occur, and what effects accompany them. It doesn't make any difference to me whether you do or not, but for your own sake (and to look like you actually know what you are talking about when you discuss such things on the internet) you may want to do a little reading up. I suggest starting with the EMP Commission Official Report, available online freely to anyone who can work a Google search.

Yes, I've heard about it. There's still no real data on what that would do to our modern infrastructure. There's a lot of guesswork and speculation out there, even among the experts. Especially among the experts. In addition, the word FUBAR'D doesn't give me shit to work with in specific terms, and that's my problem. I can't make a layered prep strategy for "FUBAR'D", which is a description that I ultimately run into a lot when looking.

I've decided that EMP is one of the (sadly many, many, disgustingly many) new Pornpocalypse memes that gets thrown about.

Your comment about my comment about radiation, blast waves, and sharks with laser beams shows you really have done next to nothing to educate yourself about how haughty you sound on the internet. Everyone has a favorite theoretical Pornpocalypse scenario. So do I. I'm not grudging you that. The trick is to not sound like "that guy" behind the gun counter that we all talk about when you discuss the theoretical apocalypse that happens to get your dick hard, and how prepping for it is better than prepping for the theoretical apocalypse that happens to get my dick hard (which is a population-slaying pandemic, if you wanna know). I don't routinely prep for theoreticals for several reasons:

1. There's plenty of known and actual disasters to prepare for that have known effects and outcomes on my corner of the world.

2. I make a lot of money, but still have to do the "Layered prep" philosophy like everyone else, and I gotta prioritize.

3. In all my reading that I've done about it, no one can point me to reasonable, specific, and most importantly unique preparations that I need to apply to this one scenario that wouldn't apply to other prolonged-SHTF scenarios.

However, if EMP is your bag, then by all means tell me what you're doing, and what I can do, to help me prepare for one. I've looked around, and there is almost literally a bunch of tinfoil hat stuff out there about it.

If you know what might happen and what to do about it, let me know, because I've kind of run out of energy trying to build up some reasonable preps for it.

[DrunkWookiee]

Hurricane, Why bother?
Nuclear War, Why bother?
Economic Collapse, Why bother?
Zombies, Why bother?

This is a preparedness forum. Preparing for the worse and hoping for the best.

Some of the responses on this thread sound like the stuff we all hear from non-preppers.

Does it really matter what someone preps for? If someone is stocking food for alien invasion, I could care less. The main thing is THEY ARE PREPPING. Period. If/when some disaster, ANY disaster strikes, they'll be able to fend for themselves, therefore putting less drain on recovery efforts by not being a refugee and not turning to looting/robbery, therefore not being a potential threat to ME.

Now to answer the original question, I feel EMP is a credible threat. Since so little is known about the possible effects, I think thats a good reason to take the worse-case scenario and basing preps on that. And really, how much trouble is it to place a few electronics items in a Faraday Cage?

[Ridgeback06]

All Iran or NK have to do is get one of their low yield devices over the CONUS at an altitude and set it off Could happen but they lack delivery systems right now. The other scenario is solar storms. Either way the net effect to us is a long term electrical outage and a possible disruption of the supply train that our society depends on.

I prep for that by setting by enough supplies to keep us good to go for a long term disruption. It could happen in any form of large scale disaster.

Hey, all we can do is what we're willing to do. If you don't want to prep for long term outages and disruption of the supply train that is your business. Personally, we have three months worth of our meds set by, lots of water and food, guns and ammo, bows and arrows I really want to get my ham license and set up a portable in an ammo can...

[Tater Raider]

Part of my preps includes nuclear and part of nuclear preps is dealing with EMP.

Part of dealing with most SHTF disasters includes power outages and TEOTWAWKI disaster preps include societal collapse by definition which includes the probability of a power outage lasting years.

These are related.

Ignoring EMP, I plan to get an underground home if at all possible. This gives me a fallout shelter that works (because I live in it as a matter of course), provides energy efficiency, and allows my megar power needs to be taken care of on site and off the grid. Spare parts will be kept inside. Now throw in EMP and the only thing left to deal with is the vehicle.

I mean everything else is already addressed by the home design, and that was to deal with fallout, severe weather, earthquakes, and tornadoes, right?

So a non-elctronic diesel is all that's left. How about a '94-'98½ Dodge Ram Cummins? Yep, now the vehicle is covered. Put a spare radio and starter in the house and carry a bicycle on the truck and EMP is totally covered. Besides that, I have a beast of a vehicle that can handle things other than EMP in a TEOTWAWKI situation that I can actually wrench on without having to buy test gear to read computer codes and I don't have to replace the computer 4 times in 6 months because it went bad and I keep getting faulty replacements (happened to my father IRL).

Eventually some idiot is going to start a nuclear war. I don't know if it will be in my lifetime or not but it is my opinion, and that of my father, that this is a when, not if, situation. Others that fall in this catagory are VEI 8 eruptions (Yellowstone), an ELE metor impact event, government collapse, and Sol (our sun) turning into a red giant.

Will these things happen? Absolutely!

Will they happen in our lifetime? With the exception of the last event, who knows? While unlikely you cannot rule them out and this is about being prepared so what's the harm in discussing it as part of your plans?

To me the only thing worse than squirrels is zombies and the worst of the zombies are the nuclear zombies. Nuclear zombie preps are the ultimate readiness goal for me because of that and what's the harm? At the very least I'll have a pickup that does most anything a Jeep can and then some things it can't as well as a home that looks like it came straight out of the Lord of the Rings movies. I could do worse than that, really.

[mzmadmike]

Meh. While I love my electronics, I've set myself up where I think I could get by without them.

Does that include your car, your phone, your water, your gas, your sewage system, all stores, and electricity?

A CME event is a statistical certainty, as it's happened at least four times in the last 150 years. We were "lucky" the first one predated modern electronics. So did 1989, smaller one. A repeat of the Carrington Event could literally be the instant end of Western civilization as we know it, and recovery might be measured in years. You MIGHT salvage alternators from cars to run on wind or water power. It depends on inductance levels.

Of course, there isn't actually anything you can DO about it.

A terrorist EMP is rather unlikely. A rogue state scenario is increasingly possible, but unlikely, as it would probably affect them, too.

Magnetic storm

On September 1–2, 1859, the largest recorded geomagnetic storm occurred, causing the failure of telegraph systems all over Europe and North America.[5] Aurorae were seen around the world, most notably over the Caribbean; also noteworthy were those over the Rocky Mountains that were so bright, the glow awoke gold miners, who began preparing breakfast because they thought it was morning.[3]
[edit] History

Ice cores show evidence that events of similar intensity recur at an average rate of approximately once per 500 years. Since 1859, less severe storms have occurred in 1921 and 1960, when widespread radio disruption was reported.[3]

It doesn't get much more brute force than telegraph. There are reports some lines actually caught fire.

Some satellites in polar orbits lost control for several hours. GOES weather satellite communications were interrupted causing weather images to be lost. NASA's TDRS-1 communication satellite recorded over 250 anomalies caused by the increased particles flowing into its sensitive electronics.[4] The Space Shuttle Discovery was having its own mysterious problems. A sensor on one of the tanks supplying hydrogen to a fuel cell was showing unusually high pressure readings on March 13. The problem went away just as mysteriously after the solar storm subsided.
[edit] Quebec blackout

The variations in the earth's magnetic field also tripped circuit breakers on Hydro-Québec's power grid. The utility's very long transmission lines and the fact that most of Quebec sits on a large rock shield prevented current flowing through the earth, finding a less resistant path along the 735 kV power lines[5].

The James Bay network went offline in less than 90 seconds, giving Quebec its second massive blackout in 11 months.[6] The power failure lasted 9 hours and forced the company to implement various mitigation strategies, including raising the trip level, installing series compensation on ultra high voltage lines and upgrading various monitoring and operational procedures. Other utilities in North America, the UK, Northern Europe and elsewhere implemented programs to reduce the risks associated with geomagnetically induced currents.[5]

And that was a relatively minor one by comparison.

The effects of lightning strikes are well known. A global equivalent ranges from BAD to TEOWCAWKI.

It is certainly not "tinfoil hattery," and to suggest that because no one can concretely predict the outcome means there's no threat is just bizarre. No one can concretely predict the effect of a 9.0 New Madrid earthquake, but I'm pretty sure it won't be good.

The preps you can make are simple enough. Stash a laptop in an old padded ammo can, with important data on memory sticks.

And worst case, I'm pretty sure Zimbabwe, Mongolia and Sulawesi will be unaffected regardless.

[andygates]

"Paper and candles mode" is good prep for many things. Assume no power, no comms, no piped water, and go from there.

-- usb sticks in a Faraday cage, for example, are just a curiosity if your laptop dies. Photocopies and dead-tree books have their place despite their wretched data density.

[Bunsen]

A CME event is a statistical certainty, as it's happened at least four times in the last 150 years. We were "lucky" the first one predated modern electronics. So did 1989, smaller one. A repeat of the Carrington Event could literally be the instant end of Western civilization as we know it, and recovery might be measured in years. You MIGHT salvage alternators from cars to run on wind or water power. It depends on inductance levels.

Repeat after me: Geomagnetic storms are not nuclear EMPs.

With a CME-induced geomagnetic storm, anything not plugged into the power grid or a very large antenna will be just fine. Even things plugged into the grid would probably be fine, since you've only got a (relatively) small loop of wire between your house and the nearest transformer, and the induced current varies too slowly to be transferred by the transformer. You need miles of metal in the air to induce damaging currents, so only things directly connected to long-distance transmission lines are vulnerable to immediate damage.

The consequences of severe damage to the power grid would be a whole lot of suck, but the direct damage would only be done to the large transformers attached to long-haul power lines. Your fridge, computer, and cell phone will all be fine, though they may not be much use without a power grid.

[Geppato]

I prep for lots of things, but really. There are only a few things that can cause a large enough EMP to seriously worry about right? And those things pretty much mean your dead anyways, right? So why bother worrying about your vehicles ability to withstand an EMP? If the nuke didn't get you, I am pretty sure the radioactive fall out and nuclear winter will. A solar flare big enough and with enough duration to wipe out the planets electronics with EMP would probably wipe out the planet period. Unless I am missing something , I just cant see this as a true concern.

I would strongly disagree with you, for most any invasion type scenario there is an anticipation for the first strike going to be EMP. And the ability to have a regional EMP is not all that complicated, there are weapons that everyone has that are designed specifically for frying hardware. Why? Because taking out early warning, communications, and intelligence products is common sense in advanced warfare.
Now another scenario, if you are preparing and stocking up for natural disasters/social disorder then electronics should be fine. But I would have to say that "prepare for the worst, hope for the best" will apply always. If there is a ZPAW or a PAW of any kind all electronics that need an outside feed are going to be useless anyway.

For what you are talking about is called "HEMP" or High Alititude Electronic Magnetic Pulse. And it is a real threat. There are ways to "harden" your equipment to survive EMP, for example the use of FARADAY Cages or blankets. I think you can buy these now online?
But my best suggestion would be to assume that if you are going to see a scenario where EMP is a factor, there are going to be bigger problems around than electronics.