EMP, Why bother?

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Bunsen » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:38 pm

Neville wrote:Hey Browning 35!

That's some impressive info. I'm not above modifying my viewpoint when superior information presents itself. If that info is correct, then vehicle EMP is a much less significant threat than was formerly believed, although that day would really suck if you turned out to be the one person on the block whose car/truck is fried and won't run.

One thing, I scanned through your post and did not see the link to the original source data. I know I will be challenged in the future when I quote these results and want to be able to direct the querent to the original source. You wouldn't happen to have those links around by any chance?

Thanks for the contribution to this thread.

Those are quotes from the EMP Commission report: http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf
Which has been linked to and referenced many times in this thread already...
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Browning 35 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:34 pm

Neville wrote:Hey Browning 35!

That's some impressive info. I'm not above modifying my viewpoint when superior information presents itself. If that info is correct, then vehicle EMP is a much less significant threat than was formerly believed, although that day would really suck if you turned out to be the one person on the block whose car/truck is fried and won't run.

One thing, I scanned through your post and did not see the link to the original source data. I know I will be challenged in the future when I quote these results and want to be able to direct the querent to the original source. You wouldn't happen to have those links around by any chance?

Thanks for the contribution to this thread.

Well I wish I could take credit for it, but all that's actually from the EMP Comission and it was from the 1st page (3rd post down I think) and it made available by 'wastan' (and I missed the link on the first go around and was told to look for it by 'None1' as it related the question of if EMP would damage personal vehicles or not).

Bunsen just posted the link again right above this post if you don't want to go back to the fist page, I just tried to para-phrase the parts that would apply to us as civilians looking to make it through an EMP attack such as our vehicles and whether they would run or not, food distribution, effect on the economy etc etc.

That was my only contribution on that post (trying to para-phrase what the report stated on motor vehicles and what the major effects would be for us) other than perhaps trying to make the point that even if our personal cars did run and the electrical systems weren't fried that the situation would be about as bad anyway. Several states without electricity, without grocery stores getting food and gas and with huge traffic jams initially and the almost certainty of major civil unrest doesn't sound very pleasant to me.

At least my car and truck MIGHT run though. :wink:
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Re: EMP, Why bother? - here's why

Postby Glennbo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:46 am

s2la wrote:Now, the facts, fromLack of antenna protecting electronics: Bullcrap. The electron shower from the gamma ray pulse affects all electrical conductors. The ones that develop more heat than they can dissipate will melt. In common terms that means long wires and antennas develop large currents, but the microns thick wiring in silicon chips can *not* dissipate more than a few calories worth of heat, so they melt. The key is not *length* of the conductor, but a combination of length, thickness, and the melting point of the conductor.
Figured I'd quote this old post since we seem to have slid back to the "cars will be fine" attitude again. You guys are really something else. Just can't let go of your cars.

Thank goodness the Defense Dpt. doesn't hold that view.
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Re: EMP, Why bother? - here's why

Postby none1 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:02 am

Glennbo wrote:
s2la wrote:Now, the facts, fromLack of antenna protecting electronics: Bullcrap. The electron shower from the gamma ray pulse affects all electrical conductors. The ones that develop more heat than they can dissipate will melt. In common terms that means long wires and antennas develop large currents, but the microns thick wiring in silicon chips can *not* dissipate more than a few calories worth of heat, so they melt. The key is not *length* of the conductor, but a combination of length, thickness, and the melting point of the conductor.
Figured I'd quote this old post since we seem to have slid back to the "cars will be fine" attitude again. You guys are really something else. Just can't let go of your cars.

Thank goodness the Defense Dpt. doesn't hold that view.


Which view? Are you claiming the Defense Dpt. doesn't believe the empcommision report? Where did you see that information, I must have missed it. And why do we care what someone claims about heat and stuff burning up, if we actually have tested this and have not seen an issue?

By all means, prep for an EMP, it has a 1/100 chance of happening from the sun. :) BUT, if you are prepping for an EMP, cars and small electronics can certainly be a part of your preps, there is very little evidence, and no links to any data or experiments after TEN pages now, that suggest an EMP will result in the wide scale failure of cars and small electronics not plugged into the grid. A 1/100 event is relatively "likely", in that the probability of YOUR (or any single) house burning down is much less than 1/100.

BY ALL MEANS, if concerned, folks can and should prepare for an "electronicless" PAW, where electricity and all our current electronic based devices no longer function. Such a disaster is possible, but, not likely due to an EMP.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby SeerSavant » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:22 pm

Instead of preparing for the most likely scenarios, and others either dismiss as highly unlikely, or you can't prepare for that it's simply too much...
Prepare for everything you can, when I was about 12 I already knew how to measure radiation based on approximate height of a mushroom cloud and estimated distance, cause it was more than likely that I would not be right next to a shelter.
In essence, at initial blast dive behind the best cover available for the initial rays, metal concrete, whatever, at worst and your in a field, dive behind the nearest and highest rise (Preferable six to eight feet across to minimize radiation exposure.) Head towards blast face down hands over head, backback on top of head (If available) legs straight behind you to minimize the exposure.
If the blast wave doesn't kill you, wait for the reverse, then hunt shelter as quick as possible before the fallout begins to fall.

This I learned and accepted at 12 years old.

EMP's don't scare me, last I checked my bike had no electronics, and I know enough about older cars to replaced 90 percent of the parts with the tools I have, and half as much with very little tools. All cars will not die out.

However, If you do have a car that runs, expect everyone out there to try and kill you for it.

Prepare for the worst imaginable, overkill and overprepared are not wastes of time or effort, hope for the best, then get to the business at hand.

You calculate you got a dose enough to kill you in months or weeks. That's time to do something.

The nuclear threat taught me at an early age that death is a foregone conclusion, once you know there's not much time left, that's when you need to do for your family friends etc, the best you can, for as long as you can.





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Re: EMP, Why bother? - here's why

Postby Glennbo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:37 am

none1 wrote: Are you claiming the Defense Dpt. doesn't believe the empcommision report?
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm "claiming". That's why the military has taken steps to harden equipment WAY BEYOND the optimistic parameters of that one fallible report that you all blindly clutch to your bosoms like a weather forecast issued a week before the baseball game you have tickets to.
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Re: EMP, Why bother? - here's why

Postby TafkanX » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:59 pm

Glennbo wrote:Yeah, that's exactly what I'm "claiming". That's why the military has taken steps to harden equipment WAY BEYOND the optimistic parameters of that one fallible report that you all blindly clutch to your bosoms like a weather forecast issued a week before the baseball game you have tickets to.


This really has your feathers in a ruffle, does it not? To be fair, the military tends to have redundant safeguards in place because of the chaotic nature of combat. I do not believe anybody is saying that it wouldn't be ideal to have everything possible shielded to maximum capability, just that it may not be necessary or practical. If you have the means and desire to make EMP-specific preps a significant part of your survival plan then please by all means do so. Please do not belittle others for failing to do so and/or placing faith in a government report based on hard data and the scientific method. It's not very becoming.

Now, when the S makes contact with the F and we're all stuck with 2,000 lb. paperweights you may feel free to laugh derisively from the safety of your Ultra Faraday Cage of Doom.
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Re: EMP, Why bother? - here's why

Postby none1 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:15 am

Glennbo wrote:
none1 wrote: Are you claiming the Defense Dpt. doesn't believe the empcommision report?
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm "claiming". That's why the military has taken steps to harden equipment WAY BEYOND the optimistic parameters of that one fallible report that you all blindly clutch to your bosoms like a weather forecast issued a week before the baseball game you have tickets to.


You really got any idea WHY the military hardens their gear? Mayhaps you might consider the Military hardens their gear NOT for a large wave EMP, but for smaller targeted devices like have already been discussed in this thread?

Perhaps you could enlighten us with proof of facts, instead of what SOUNDS like pure conjecture on your part. You may have some idea of what you're talking about ..... BUT .... lots of folks can CLAIM lots of stuff.

Do you have any examples even of HOW the military has "hardened" say a humvee against an EMP? Some examples might help clarify your claims.

Thanks!
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Re: EMP, Why bother? - here's why

Postby none1 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:20 am

TafkanX wrote:
Glennbo wrote:Yeah, that's exactly what I'm "claiming". That's why the military has taken steps to harden equipment WAY BEYOND the optimistic parameters of that one fallible report that you all blindly clutch to your bosoms like a weather forecast issued a week before the baseball game you have tickets to.


If you have the means and desire to make EMP-specific preps a significant part of your survival plan then please by all means do so.


I'd be happy if someone could point to any PROVEN EMP-specific preps. Near as I can tell, the evidence suggests an FRS radio sitting on my counter will not be impacted by a large scale EMP. So I'm not really sure why I'd want to put that FRS radio in a faraday cage. Only thing I can see would be some devices that ARE plugged into an outlet may burn out, while the same device NOT plugged into an outlet should be fine. So perhaps having a backup UNPLUGGED TV would count as an EMP specific prep?
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Rev » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:21 am

Great, so cars will work after an EMP attack. I guess this means that the hordes from the cities will be able to drive out into the countryside to pillage and loot for food and clean water. I liked it better when they’d have to walk.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby wisconsin_cur » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:51 am

Great, so cars will work after an EMP attack. I guess this means that the hordes from the cities will be able to drive out into the countryside to pillage and loot for food and clean water. I liked it better when they’d have to walk.
Great, so cars will work after an EMP attack. I guess this means that the hordes from the cities will be able to drive out into the countryside to pillage and loot for food and clean water. I liked it better when they’d have to walk.


Many folks from the countryside will flee to the city in the hopes that relief will be coming. Perhaps they can wave to each other as they pass?
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Re: EMP, Why bother? - here's why

Postby mzmadmike » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:02 am

none1 wrote:Do you have any examples even of HOW the military has "hardened" say a humvee against an EMP? Some examples might help clarify your claims.

Thanks!


By specing the HMMWV to use a brute force diesel with no electronics, and only the minimum of simple, wired electrics for starting and gauges.

I don't imagine infantry officers who want training and ammo authorize billions for EMP protection because they think it's nifty. If you look at a FSB, you might notice they have grounded, hardened vehicles for their electronic maintenance, and were upgrading to the mighty 386 processor in 1995. They're probably up to a 486 now...because they're built into frames that weigh a bunch, cushion against impact and are shielded against thousands of eV.

Just because it looks nifty, you understand.

Incidentally, if "only" 5% of the trucks on the road fail to a rather low energy event, it'll "only" cause a 5% failure in food delivery, and take every repair shop in the country a few months to get them fixed...assuming there are enough spare parts.

A significantly higher energy event will have different effects.

Don't worry, though. Your body armor stops .25 ACP, so I'm sure you'll be safe against this .50 BMG. Hold still now...
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Browning 35 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:07 am

Well what I'm getting out of all this is that maybe an EMP blast would fry my car and maybe it wouldn't (I don't have a HMMWV).

I'm no expert, I don't have a degree in anything even remotely related and I've only ever read one book (fiction) and a few magazine articles and seen a couple youtube videos on the subject. Doesn't seem like anyone knows for sure simply because it hasn't happened (yet) other than from military tests which are somewhat contradictory (maybe it depends on the kilotons/megatons of the device and how close it is).

So I'll just error on the side of caution and take a few simple precautions just in case (Faraday Box for my generators, a few spare car parts and other electronic devices which aren't in constant use). That's basically the best I could do anyway.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Tater Raider » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:35 am

My take (after a long break) is this: If you want to prep for it go ahead. If you don't want to prep for it then don't.

I'll prep for it, but that's me. YMMV. I don't prep for hurricanes or wildfires because they don't happen in Iowa so this is a personal call.

As far as being dependent on my automobile (I cannot recall if it's been mentioned in this thread right now or not but I am going to address it anyways and I am personalizing this so as to respond to this specific issue, but I am not taking it personally), you're damn right I depend on my gas guzzling 4 wheeled beast. My family is scattered all over the US, my children live 30+ miles from me, and I live in a decent sized town in an extremely rural area in the US where public transportation over distance is non-existant (and only slightly better than that on a national basis). My health care is 140 miles away on top of this and spending 2 days on my bicycle going to the VA Hospital to get my medication adjusted and then another 2 days heading home isn't on the menu (and yes, that is how the VA works - they would rather pay me for gas to see them instead of seeing a local doctor). Not only that, but I plan to relocate to an even more remote area once my youngest graduates from high school (255 miles/3-4 days on bike one-way from a different VA Hospital).

I mean maybe my area got hit but not another, right?

I don't need a car or truck, but my life will be a whole lot better with one for those reasons among others, such as transporting supplies or bugging out to another area of the US.

Everyone's situation is different.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby rpc » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:13 am

These threads are always frustrating, because they always turn into a debate of whether there will be a situation in which all electronic devices are rendered inoperable, or whether such a situation will never take place.

As with any natural or manmade phenomenon, the real issue isn't that black and white.

EMP is electromagnetic pulse, which could be caused by a number of things. Most commonly, we think in terms of it being caused by a very high altitude nuclear blast. It is an very strong electomagnetic field that lasts for a very short period of time.

Electromagnetic fields are all around us all the time, in the form of radio waves. A very high altitude nuclear blast would cause an extremely strong electomagnetic field, which would be very strong over a very large area. Other possible EMP weapons would cause a very strong electromagnetic field over a much smaller area. Solar phenomenona might cause similar effects over a large area.

But EMP will have negative effects because of the strength of the field in a given place, not merely because of the existence of the field somewhere. Again, electromagentic fields are all around us. At some point, if they become strong enough, they will cause damage to various items.

To give an example, wind can cause damage to things. If the wind is 1 MPH, it probably won't cause very much damage. If it's 30 MPH, it might tip over the garbage can. If it's 50 MPH, it might blow off some shingles. If it's 100 MPH, it might break some windows. If it's over 100 MPH, it might cause the whole house to blow down. The strength of the wind is what causes the damage, and the amount of damage it does will vary depending on the strength.

The same is true of EMP. Again, we already live in an environment of electromagnetic fields. You could think of it as a gentle 1 MPH breeze.

You could think of EMP as a 100 MPH wind. (I should note that the actual strength of an EMP would be many times more than 100 times stronger than normal electromagnetic field levels.) But it wouldn't necessarily be a 100 MPH wind everywhere. For example, an "EMP weapon" (as opposed to a high altitude nuclear blast) would have very localized effects. 20 miles away, the EMP wind would be a normal 1 MPH.

For a high-altitude nuclear blast, the area of 100 MPH wind would cover a finite, albeit large, area. As with any wave, the intensity at a given area is governed by the inverse square law. This means that if you are twice as far away, the effect is 1/4 as strong. If you are 3 times as far away, the effect is 1/9 as strong.

Now, this is somewhat complicated by the fact that the origin of the EMP is not a single point, but acually an area within the earth's magnetosphere. But still, that's a finite area, so the inverse square law means that the effect will be diminished as you spread out.

So let's assume that 500 miles from the center of the area affected by the EMP, the EMP is like a 100 MPH wind. If that is true, then 1000 miles away, the EMP is like a 25 MPH wind. And 1500 miles away, it is like an 11 MPH wind.

Two things stand to reason: The first is that there will probably be less damage from the 11 MPH wind than there is from the 100 MPH wind. And the second is that there are probably a small number of very sensitive devices that will be damaged even by the 11 MPH wind.

But it's not an either-or proposition. The question is not whether everything will be destroyed or whether everything will be fine. The actual question is how great the damage will be.

The sole practical experiment that was ever conducted involving EMP caused by high altitude nuclear blasts was during tests in the Pacific. There was some unanticipated damage in Hawaii (which is basically how the phenomenon was discovered). However, all electronic devices in Hawaii were not destroyed.

My belief is that in a plausible high-altitude nuclear blast over North America, power will be out over a large part of the continent. This is because even if a relatively small percentage of the components in the power grid fail at the same moment, there will probably be cascading failures of other items. It seems to me that the immediate effects would be almost the same, whether 1% of the components on the grid failed, or whether 90% of them failed. Either way, it seems to me, there would be an immediate failure. Of course, if it's 1%, then it's probably easier to effect repairs, and power might start functioning in some areas quite soon. If it's 90% of the grid that's damaged, then it might take a lot longer.

I think the risk to individual electronic devices that are disconnected and not in use is very low, close to zero in most areas.

This is largely academic if we're merely discussing whether life will go on as normal. Such a widespread power outage, even if corrected fairly quickly (which is somewhat unlikely), would mean that normal chains of distribution of fuel, etc., would be very unreliable for a long time. In short, it's quite likely that your car would start just fine, but fuel won't be available, and you probably won't have anyplace to drive anyway. So IMHO, it's largely academic, if we're just thinking in terms of life getting back to normal. It won't be normal, even if damage is minimal, IMHO.

It becomes less academic when we think in terms of personal disaster preparations. Many electronic devices are important to personal preparations, and these are devices one might want to use, even in the absence of a national grid. For example, you won't need your car to drive to work, because it's unlikely that you'll be going to work. But if you need the engine in the car to generate electricity or conduct mechanized agriculture, then it's a different story. And you won't be surfing the internet with your computer, because even if the internet is out there somewhere, the routers and lines between you and the outside world probably won't be functioning. But you might need data stored on a computer (although frankly, I think it's imprudent to store important information in this manner). And you won't be listening to the top 40 on your radio, because the remaining radio stations will probably have more important things to talk about. But having a radio to listen to those remaining stations could be critical.

It seems likely to me that most of these discrete devices would remain functional. This is especially true if they are unplugged at the time of the EMP event. And this is almost certianly true if even a little bit of thought is given to how they are stored.

Personally, after an EMP event, I will almost certainly be listening to the radio, and I will also be transmitting. Chances are, the normal radios that are plugged in right now will work fine (once I put batteries in them). If not, I have plenty that are stored away, with varying levels of protection. Since I doubt if there will be power available, I have plans for producing the small amount of power that I will need.

Almost as certainly, I will not be using any computer. This is not because the computer will be damaged. It might be, but I really don't care. For my purposes, using a computer would be a waste of very precious electricity, without much benefit. So for that reason, I'm really not planning on doing any post-EMP computing.

Similarly, it's very certain that I won't be using any vehicles, at least not very much. This is not because I think my cars will be damaged. They might be, but I really don't care. Again, for my purposes, using a car for transportation would be a waste of very precious fuel, without much benefit. So for that reason, I'm really not planning on any post-EMP vehicle use.

This would obviously be very different if I were, for example, a farmer. In that case, having the use of at least some machinery would be vital to not only my survival, but the nation's survival as well. So in that case, I think I would take some precautions to make sure that some vehicles and machinery were hardened, or at least were such that they could easily be repaired.

Again, EMP is not a magic bullet that will either destroy all electronics, or leave all electronics unscathed. As with everything, we have to recognize that there is a certain level of uncertainty, and focus our preparations where they will have the most potential benefit.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby DarkAxel » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:07 pm

rpc wrote:A well-reasoned and evenhanded response.


I would also go on to say that in the worst-case, a HEMP or CME wipes out all electronics in the affected area. In such a case, it doesn't destroy the information held in non-electronic mediums. It is also very highly unlikely that either would completely destroy ALL electronic devices and manufacturing capacity around the globe. The short-term effects would be devastating, but I don't seriously think the long-term effects would lead to a global PAW. Mankind has an astounding ability to recover from disaster. For every person overestimating the danger of a specific threat, there is a person underestimating mankind's ability to adapt and rebuild.

Electricity and its wonders are a little over 100 years old. For most of our history, mankind survived and thrived without electricity. And the fact remains that any surviving electric motor can be converted into an electric generator with just a little study. A determined mind can also rebuild damaged generators. An EMP or CME might melt the copper in a generator, but it won't vaporize it (or the knowledge of how to make copper wire).
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Rev » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:46 pm

rpc wrote:This would obviously be very different if I were, for example, a farmer. In that case, having the use of at least some machinery would be vital to not only my survival, but the nation's survival as well. So in that case, I think I would take some precautions to make sure that some vehicles and machinery were hardened, or at least were such that they could easily be repaired.


I'm fairly certain our tractors will be alright. I don't think there is anything in them for EMP to screw with. Good post.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Browning 35 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:31 am

Rev Josiah wrote:
rpc wrote:This would obviously be very different if I were, for example, a farmer. In that case, having the use of at least some machinery would be vital to not only my survival, but the nation's survival as well. So in that case, I think I would take some precautions to make sure that some vehicles and machinery were hardened, or at least were such that they could easily be repaired.


I'm fairly certain our tractors will be alright. I don't think there is anything in them for EMP to screw with. Good post.

I'm not even gonna pretend that I know anything about tractors....but don't they have battieries, starters, alternators (etc) just like a car in order to start it and keep in running?

On the other hand they seem like they'd be pretty simple with a minimum of electrical parts, so maybe they would do better EMP wise than most cars.

I don't know....kind of why I'm asking.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Rev » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:28 am

Browning 35 wrote:
Rev Josiah wrote:
rpc wrote:This would obviously be very different if I were, for example, a farmer. In that case, having the use of at least some machinery would be vital to not only my survival, but the nation's survival as well. So in that case, I think I would take some precautions to make sure that some vehicles and machinery were hardened, or at least were such that they could easily be repaired.


I'm fairly certain our tractors will be alright. I don't think there is anything in them for EMP to screw with. Good post.

I'm not even gonna pretend that I know anything about tractors....but don't they have battieries, starters, alternators (etc) just like a car in order to start it and keep in running?

On the other hand they seem like they'd be pretty simple with a minimum of electrical parts, so maybe they would do better EMP wise than most cars.

I don't know....kind of why I'm asking.


If any mechanical "vehicle" is EMP safe it's probably our tractors. You'll see the models we have at tractor shows ust all prettied up. I'll also ask dad but I believe there may be work arounds should those parts go bad.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Hammer31 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:51 am

Ok. OTR trucker here and I think that if an EMP hit, I would be screwed. During the CME that happened last week (08/04/10 1500PDT), I was driving down the road and I noticed a new electrical whine in my radio and, checking the voltmeter, my electrical system was putting out over 16 VDC. I now have a fried engine computer, alternator/regulator and my Sirius radio is acting "weird". Did not put together my problems as possibly connected with the CME until I heard the shop guys complaining about all the electrical faults this week and an article on Yahoo.

Could it have been just a fluke that my truck went weird during the same time but not be due to the CME? Yes. I have had some things like the described problem occur when there was not a CME but it is possible. These trucks have up to 3 different computer systems (Engine, Transmission, Chassis) and loads of wires to act as a nice reciever for a potential EMP.

Does anyone know what the strength of this CME in relation to an EMP attack?
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Bunsen » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:21 pm

Hammer31 wrote:...
Could it have been just a fluke that my truck went weird during the same time but not be due to the CME?
It absolutely was. This CME was a tiny little thing compared to even normal solar maximum stuff, and it did absolutely fuck-all on the ground. And unless your truck is several dozen miles long, nothing in it would ever be affected by even the strongest CME-induced geomagnetic storms. They can mess with the power grid and satellites, but that's about it. Your satellite radio and GPS could someday suffer service interruptions, but only because they depend on signals from satellites. The signals themselves can be affected by solar storms, and sufficiently severe storms can force temporary shutdowns of the birds (or damage them, in extreme cases), but your equipment down here on the ground cannot possibly be damaged by a CME.

Your alternator's voltage regulator failed first, and the other stuff was cooked by the high, fluctuating voltage.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby Hammer31 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:51 pm

Thx. Kind of let my ignorance about EMPs show. Live and Learn.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby mzmadmike » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:42 pm

Most farming is done by high-tech combines these days, not old school diesel tractors. The tractors work, they just can't do enough fast enough to keep up with demand.
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Re: EMP, Why bother?

Postby WhoShotJR » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:52 pm

mzmadmike wrote:Most farming is done by high-tech combines these days, not old school diesel tractors. The tractors work, they just can't do enough fast enough to keep up with demand.



Most farming these days is done by GPS guided machines (yes, driven by people) who follow exacting parameters. Most people don't realize how technical farming has become these days. Even the plowers work in A/C.
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