EMP, Why bother?

[razi]

how much soil would it take to protect from EMP/CME-esque radiation?

specifically, if one has a green roof/underground house, how much dirt/mass would it take to block/absorb the pulse (ignore the power lines and plumbing pipes for the moment).

most modern houses have a good layer of tyvek inside the walls, so applying an anti-EMP layer inside the wall isn't impossible, however, there are windows and other fenestration to worry about. how much radiation is going to come through the windows, and does that affect things in front of the windows or would something that's not in the direct path be ok? for example, would the emp radiation operate like a sunbeam coming through the window (where you could put gear in the shadows to be safe), or would it spread out to fill the room?

obviously there's no reasonable way to block 100% of the pulse, but there are steps that one could take to mitigate the damage. can any of you Learned Elders help us figure that part out?

[frogdude]

"Get your collective heads out of Wikipedia - which is 1/2 truth, 1/2 lies, and 1/2 the kind of uninformed guesswork that this thread has been perpetuating - and go read the primary sources."

posted by s2la

3 halves? That's good maths

Sorry, i'm sure there was some really good points in your post, but this is the bit that will stick in my head.

[Wildeman_13]

most modern houses have a good layer of tyvek inside the walls, so applying an anti-EMP layer inside the wall isn't impossible, however, there are windows and other fenestration to worry about. how much radiation is going to come through the windows, and does that affect things in front of the windows or would something that's not in the direct path be ok? for example, would the emp radiation operate like a sunbeam coming through the window (where you could put gear in the shadows to be safe), or would it spread out to fill the room?

obviously there's no reasonable way to block 100% of the pulse, but there are steps that one could take to mitigate the damage. can any of you Learned Elders help us figure that part out?

If you build a house sided with Stucco, you already need to put up a mesh screen. Right now they use something like 1-2" hexagon shaped mesh. Sure it would cost more to use copper wire, but the building process would not be that much more different. Just have to make sure it gets grounded out.

[DarkAxel]

... for example, would the emp radiation operate like a sunbeam coming through the window (where you could put gear in the shadows to be safe), or would it spread out to fill the room?

obviously there's no reasonable way to block 100% of the pulse, but there are steps that one could take to mitigate the damage. can any of you Learned Elders help us figure that part out?

emphasis mine.

This I feel reasonably qualified to answer. Electromagnetic radiation moves in the form of waves, and waves expand beyond entry points. It may be better to think of it this way:

Imagine a fish tank, filled with water. This will represent the air. Now in the middle of the tank, there is a divider, split vertically along it's length, or with an opening of say two inches at the water line. This will represent a window. Now drop a big rock in one side of the tank, and watch the expanding waves as they pass through the opening in the divider. You'll see that the waves will pass though and begin to spread out on the other side of the divider, eventually reaching the edges in the tank. Now introduce some things into one side of the tank at the waterline to represent large masses of metal like refrigerators, etc. Drop the rock in the other side of the tank, watch the waves pass through the opening, and watch the interaction of the waves as they reflect off of the various items. There will be "shadows and reflections" places where the waves either cancel each other out due to -/+ wavelength convergence, reflection off of various objects, and "Shadows" behind objects, areas that are relatively unaffected.

I think the total disturbance is dependent on how energetic the original radiation source is. Anyone who wants to elaborate, correct, or disprove is more than welcome.

But there is one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet, that may provide a measure of protection from an EMP event. Angular terrain. I live in the shadow of a mountain, and if the EMP is low enough over the horizon, I might have a measure of protection due to the mountain shielding my home from the worst of it.

[johnwiseman]

All that shtuff aside, as long as EMP wont make my AR not shoot I'm good!

[Vicarious_Lee]

All that shtuff aside, as long as EMP wont make my AR not shoot I'm good!

While I appreciate what you did there, the terrifying thing is how many people really believe that.

[mzmadmike]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.

Will EMP kill/disable/destroy LED flashlights? Is it a good idea to have some old school flashlights hidden away?

edit: While researching my question I ran across this 7+ year old thread asking the same question. Some good info there on EMP.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho ... p?t=179040

Answer is EMP most likely will not screw up an LED flashlight.

That depends. If it has digital rectification and adjustment, it could. Enough induced current can also burn through the LED the wrong way. Enough more will burn a regular bulb.

[Rev]

Well would be pretty difficult if it's just you and your family (unless you're a polygamous Mormon with 5 wives and 25 kids - Where the wives are all into IDPA, IPSC, 3 Gun, Former Military and/or hunters themselves and where most of the kids are older teenagers who are also good with firearms)

This is why I tell my girlfriend we need to get into polygamy. You know, for survival reasons. The look she gave me made frost form on my beard.

[jakecwu]

Am I correctly summarizing post EMP/large CME consequences with the following?

1. The grid is screwed and we will be without power for 6-12 months.
2. Large electronics that are connected to the grid are screwed, probably forever. (GASP! No internet!)
3. New cars are screwed. Older, non-computer-controlled vehicles are probably fine.
4. Small, battery powered electronics like flashlights and my keypad opened gun safe (cross fingers) will probably be fine.

I never thought I would spend any time worrying about an EMP, but now I wonder.....

G-

[mzmadmike]

Am I correctly summarizing post EMP/large CME consequences with the following?

1. The grid is screwed and we will be without power for 6-12 months.
2. Large electronics that are connected to the grid are screwed, probably forever. (GASP! No internet!)
3. New cars are screwed. Older, non-computer-controlled vehicles are probably fine.
4. Small, battery powered electronics like flashlights and my keypad opened gun safe (cross fingers) will probably be fine.

I never thought I would spend any time worrying about an EMP, but now I wonder.....

G-

Smaller stuff is generally safer from CME induced currents.

Old cars could be screwed, if enough induced current melts the plugs/wires/distributor.

[phil_in_cs]

All that shtuff aside, as long as EMP wont make my AR not shoot I'm good!

While I appreciate what you did there, the terrifying thing is how many people really believe that.

That's right up there with the people that have tons of guns and ammo, but no food, stored away on my list of 'reasons to prepare'.

[mad scientist]

... for example, would the emp radiation operate like a sunbeam coming through the window (where you could put gear in the shadows to be safe), or would it spread out to fill the room?

obviously there's no reasonable way to block 100% of the pulse, but there are steps that one could take to mitigate the damage. can any of you Learned Elders help us figure that part out?

emphasis mine.

This I feel reasonably qualified to answer. Electromagnetic radiation moves in the form of waves, and waves expand beyond entry points. It may be better to think of it this way:

Imagine a fish tank, filled with water. This will represent the air. Now in the middle of the tank, there is a divider, split vertically along it's length, or with an opening of say two inches at the water line. This will represent a window. Now drop a big rock in one side of the tank, and watch the expanding waves as they pass through the opening in the divider. You'll see that the waves will pass though and begin to spread out on the other side of the divider, eventually reaching the edges in the tank. Now introduce some things into one side of the tank at the waterline to represent large masses of metal like refrigerators, etc. Drop the rock in the other side of the tank, watch the waves pass through the opening, and watch the interaction of the waves as they reflect off of the various items. There will be "shadows and reflections" places where the waves either cancel each other out due to -/+ wavelength convergence, reflection off of various objects, and "Shadows" behind objects, areas that are relatively unaffected.

I think the total disturbance is dependent on how energetic the original radiation source is. Anyone who wants to elaborate, correct, or disprove is more than welcome.

But there is one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet, that may provide a measure of protection from an EMP event. Angular terrain. I live in the shadow of a mountain, and if the EMP is low enough over the horizon, I might have a measure of protection due to the mountain shielding my home from the worst of it.

The amount of "bending" and "scattering" an electro-magnetic wave does depends on its frequency. Basically, long wavelengths (think AM radio waves) bend and scatter a whole lot (like your water ripples), whereas short wavelengths only go in straight lines (think light, or gamma rays). The shorter the wavelength, and the more powerful the pulse, the harder it is to make an effective Faraday cage.

The simple answer is that a Faraday cage to protect against an EMP is a project that is well outside the ability of an amateur to build. This is a thousand times more true if you're trying to bring power/signals/wires/water/etc... through the cage. (I'm looking at those of you that want to turn a car or house into a Faraday cage)

Basically everyone here agrees with what I think is a reasonable sentiment: Be prepared for a long term power outage.

A nationwide EMP is a sexy, si-fi way to make a blackout happen... but there are plenty of other ways it could happen.

[razi]

true, a house would be impossible to shield, especially if there are power lines and whatnot going in and out (plus the aforementioned windows).

How about a metal-shell garage to protect the car and other unplugged equipment? Those are cheap, easy to assemble and ground, and inconspicuous. Sure it won't save your computer, refrigerator, or air conditioner, but if the automobile, portable generator, radio, and other similarly independently powered equipment is moderately protected (while the door is closed), that would provide some measure of safety, correct?

[Bunsen]

Am I correctly summarizing post EMP/large CME consequences with the following?
The two situations are quite different, so let me put the nuclear EMP version in red and the CME version in blue.

1. The grid is screwed and we will be without power for 6-12 months.
Correct, but possibly a lot longer if the damage is sufficiently widespread. Also true, but probably worse due to the additional damage and strain on infrastructure.
2. Large electronics that are connected to the grid are screwed, probably forever. (GASP! No internet!)
Correct for a nuclear EMP. Very dubious for a CME, since there are several layers of transformers between your gear and the huge long wires.
3. New cars are screwed. Older, non-computer-controlled vehicles are probably fine.
A complete non-issue for a CME. Limited truth for a nuclear EMP. At least as recent as 2002, most cars suffer no damage if they're off during the EMP, and only transient interruption if they're running. There's a possibility that newer vehicles are more vulnerable, due both to further miniaturization of components (makes them less durable) and greater integration and complexity. However, I have no hard data on this so I won't make any definite predictions.
4. Small, battery powered electronics like flashlights and my keypad opened gun safe (cross fingers) will probably be fine.
Absolutely. For a nuclear EMP, probably not. It all depends on how well the device's wiring picks up RF, and how durable the components that catch it are. Flashlights with solid metal bodies are better protected than most electronics. As for the safe, don't lose the backup key. Your cellphone and ipod are probably screwed, especially if you have the headphones plugged in.
I never thought I would spend any time worrying about an EMP, but now I wonder.....

G-

[jakecwu]

4. Small, battery powered electronics like flashlights and my keypad opened gun safe (cross fingers) will probably be fine.
Absolutely. For a nuclear EMP, probably not. It all depends on how well the device's wiring picks up RF, and how durable the components that catch it are. Flashlights with solid metal bodies are better protected than most electronics. As for the safe, don't lose the backup key. Your cellphone and ipod are probably screwed, especially if you have the headphones plugged in.
I never thought I would spend any time worrying about an EMP, but now I wonder.....

G-

This part is a bit concerning. My pistol safe has a back up key and I'm not worried. My long gun safe, however, has a very convenient push button, battery operated keypad with no manual backup. Amazing, that which I purchased to make me less vulnerable in one area has, perhaps, made me more vulnerable in another.

G-

[Browning 35]

Well would be pretty difficult if it's just you and your family (unless you're a polygamous Mormon with 5 wives and 25 kids - Where the wives are all into IDPA, IPSC, 3 Gun, Former Military and/or hunters themselves and where most of the kids are older teenagers who are also good with firearms)

This is why I tell my girlfriend we need to get into polygamy. You know, for survival reasons. The look she gave me made frost form on my beard.

I went a bit further with the polygamy idea and told my wife that....

• 'If you did go for polygamy you'll always have someone to watch all those 'Reality TV' shows with since I hate that shit'.
• 'If you're not in the mood at least one of you will be'.
• There will always be someone to help you out with that housework since that's not a 'Man's Job'.
• 'When you're wrong about something you'll have others to back you up that you'll be able to bitch to about me behind my back when I veto all of you'.

Even after all those positive arguments amazingly enough I still got the same response that you did.

So don't feel bad.

(Ladies, I'm OFFICIALLY joking....please don't kill me)

Truthfully I don't think that I could find 5 women willing to put up with me....I'm lucky I found one.

All that shtuff aside, as long as EMP wont make my AR not shoot I'm good!

While I appreciate what you did there, the terrifying thing is how many people really believe that.

That's right up there with the people that have tons of guns and ammo, but no food, stored away on my list of 'reasons to prepare'.

Yeah, I gotta wonder about that argument......but maybe since a lot of preps cover a wide range of areas (food, water, medical supplies, hand tools, firearms, mags, ammo etc etc) then those people don't really feel all that under-prepared.

Other than a Faraday Box large enough to accommodate a generator, a spare battery and battery charger, some spare car parts and maybe a radio what else could the average person do differently and how else could they better prepare for the possibility of an EMP attack???

It's not an argument I agree with completely, but I understand it.

[DarkAxel]

Well, I would imagine that placing a few select items in metal ammo cans, 55 gallon metal drums and the like, then burying them might provide a measure of protection, provided you go deep enough, say six to ten feet.

Any of the brainier folks care to comment on that?

[WhoShotJR]

Other than a Faraday Box large enough to accommodate a generator, a spare battery and battery charger, some spare car parts and maybe a radio what else could the average person do differently and how else could they better prepare for the possibility of an EMP attack???

I don't know if it would make any difference or not, but I keep my generator and lots of my other preps in those metal shipping containers. I don't keep them there because of EMP threat but because they are what I use for storage.

And I don't understand why everyone gets so excited about cars/generators being effected by EMP. If an event so bad happens that it takes out your car, I would think it would take out everything else with it including the ability to pump, and therefore purchase, gas. Even if you had thousands of gallons of gas stored away, as soon as someone saw you driving a car/running a generator, it would be taken. Either by straight theft or theft by "confiscation for the public good".

[Banka87]

Think about the scene in *sigh* War of the Worlds when they pull up in the first car seen for days, and get mobbed.

[Browning 35]

Other than a Faraday Box large enough to accommodate a generator, a spare battery and battery charger, some spare car parts and maybe a radio what else could the average person do differently and how else could they better prepare for the possibility of an EMP attack???

I don't know if it would make any difference or not, but I keep my generator and lots of my other preps in those metal shipping containers. I don't keep them there because of EMP threat but because they are what I use for storage.

I think it would depend on what kind of metal it was.

Plus I believe that it's supposed to have some sort of ground wire.

At any rate I think that just so long as it rests upon the ground it would help.

And I don't understand why everyone gets so excited about cars/generators being effected by EMP. If an event so bad happens that it takes out your car, I would think it would take out everything else with it including the ability to pump, and therefore purchase, gas. Even if you had thousands of gallons of gas stored away, as soon as someone saw you driving a car/running a generator, it would be taken. Either by straight theft or theft by "confiscation for the public good".

Yes, this is true.

The only thing is that there are quite a few people out there that have quite a bit of gas at their disposal (thousands of gallons). Some of the farmers/ranchers that I know from work have huge storage tanks to run their farm equipment with and so their gas/diesel supply would last a lot longer than what the 'Average Joe' would usually have on hand.

Backwoods : For safety sake, homestead fuel storage must be handled properly (*Click*)

As it stands right now though personally I think that I'm kind of in the middle category as far as gas storage goes. I've put away/stored enough gas for each of our three vehicles to get a full tank of gas plus enough to run the generator for quite awhile, but not so much that it would violate any city ordinances or become a fire hazard.

Most people it would seem just have what's in their tank and maybe whatever they use to run the lawnmower with.

So as far as gas goes at the very least even if all three of our cars started out on empty we'd be able to reach our safe location B.O.L. with friends or family further out in the country to quadruple up plus enough to run around for a bit AND to run the generator for several weeks turned on the entire time (it wouldn't be on the whole time, but you get what I mean).

My gas/diesel storage isn't measured in the thousands of gallons like some of the people I know, but it's better than average. After seeing a whole lot of cars and trucks on the side of the highway after Hurricane Katrina and Rita that had stalled or run out of gas I made a decision to always have enough gas for us to get out of Dodge. Even if we had to wait and creep along in traffic for 14 hours just with what we have on hand we could travel quite a ways without relying on going to a gas station and trying to get gas.

[Angelinabv]

Spam deleted by mod.

[Browning 35]

HI,

[Spam E-Address edited out]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say by posting that link (the sentence above that which I took out was a quote from me).

All those energy producers would be directly affected by EMP.

Could you spell it out for me???

[Bunsen]

HI,

Power Plant Developers

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say by posting that link (the sentence above that which I took out was a quote from me).

All those energy producers would be directly affected by EMP.

Could you spell it out for me???

Allow me: S-P-A-M. It's a script that drops links like that around teh intarwebs to increase page rankings on search engines, and keep forum mods busy deleting posts and banning accounts. The old ones would just dump some nonsense text with a link; the newer ones pull text either from Google or the forum itself to try to camouflage among the real posts.
Edited to kill spam link (facepalm). Thanks, ZG.

[none1]

Well would be pretty difficult if it's just you and your family (unless you're a polygamous Mormon with 5 wives and 25 kids - Where the wives are all into IDPA, IPSC, 3 Gun, Former Military and/or hunters themselves and where most of the kids are older teenagers who are also good with firearms)

This is why I tell my girlfriend we need to get into polygamy. You know, for survival reasons. The look she gave me made frost form on my beard.

I went a bit further with the polygamy idea and told my wife that....

WARNING, in case you haven't figured it out yet, the penalty for polygamy is quite severe ..... its having multiple wives.



/dux