Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

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Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Vicarious_Lee » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:07 pm

I've been thinking about this a lot, as I have recently bought a house with a small pool in the back. I can't really get a good opinion either way. I know the only accurate answer is "It depends", so I'll elaborate.

My pool is in-ground, with a simple yet effective and reusable filter (cleaned that this week, which sucked ass). I have enough chlorine to wage serious chemical warfare over a few hundred acres, which is enough in non-SHTF situations for probably 18 months of pool treatments. As long as there's power to the pump, it's freeze proof, but it never significantly freezes here anyway.

The water is clean, and it behaves like other water in that sediment falls to the bottom of the pool. I've got maintenance down pat as long as I have electricity. :|

The thing I'm wondering is: Is this a viable drinking/cleaning/flushing water source when SHTF? I think it is, and the only weak points I can see are the following:

1. Nuclear war. I'm not preparing for that, and my contingency plan is to die horribly. Even in that case, fallout sinks to the bottom of the pool, so any ZS-er with a water filtration unit that stumbles across it can use it to replenish as they pilfer my house of supplies (come on, we'd all do it if it was safe and morally okay, and if you find 3 roasted corpses inside this house you have my full permission to take everything, not just what you need. I support the cause).

2. Chemical attacks. Really? That's probably even less likely and, as I understand it, most chem weapons are denatured when they hit water anyway.

3. Massive volcano. Call me shortsighted, but I don't see that happening anywhere near here. Sediment sinks anyway.

4. Debris. Well, hell. I've got chlorinated water in the backyard, I don't see why I can't just filter it as I draw it up.


So, is this alright? Am I missing something?
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Biff » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:17 pm

Get yourself a Pur 2 Stage filter pitcher and you're good to go. Whatever filter you choose, make sure it has a charcoal element. The chlorine will take care of the beasties. You need a filter for particulates and metals and other chemicals. That's where the charcoal comes in.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Osiris Risen » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:33 pm

I always felt sick after swallowing too much pool water as a kid, but maybe my pool had too much chlorine.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby raptor » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:37 pm

Vicarious_Lee wrote:So, is this alright? Am I missing something?


A few things to consider:

1) Algaecides can be toxic and most pool treatments are not approved for drinking water. Depending upon how much and how often you use them will determine whether or not that may be an issue.

2) Generally the chlorine level in pools have to be significantly higher than what is used in typical drinking water. However the chlorine levels will decline fairly quickly especially in the summer. An activated carbon filter will remove the chlorine also.

3) The final aspect has to do with filtration and where your drains are located. At some point the water level will recede below the side skimmers if you utilize the water. If your side skimmers cannot be shut down they will draw air and filtration will cease. This means that the water will no longer able to be filtered by the pool filter and hence water quality will start to deteriorate.

However these are problems that can be addressed. So yes a pool can be used for water storage.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Vicarious_Lee » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:15 am

raptor wrote:1) Algaecides can be toxic and most pool treatments are not approved for drinking water. Depending upon how much and how often you use them will determine whether or not that may be an issue.

2) Generally the chlorine level in pools have to be significantly higher than what is used in typical drinking water. However the chlorine levels will decline fairly quickly especially in the summer. An activated carbon filter will remove the chlorine also.

3) The final aspect has to do with filtration and where your drains are located. At some point the water level will recede below the side skimmers if you utilize the water. If your side skimmers cannot be shut down they will draw air and filtration will cease. This means that the water will no longer able to be filtered by the pool filter and hence water quality will start to deteriorate.

However these are problems that can be addressed. So yes a pool can be used for water storage.


Excellent responses, and quick! Thanks!

So, for #1 I've got a 20 micron main filter. I believe that traps algae and everything that isn't a bacteria or virus. I say this because in the 2 hours that I was hosing this thing out and spraying crap all over myself I drained a lot of green water from the filter. Is that right? The only "algaecide" that I think I use is a UV light that is plumbed into the circulation. It has a dial, and I have recently turned that dial up. Otherwise, I just have straight chlorine tabs as far as I'm aware. I am not aware that there are any other algaecides in play here.

2. I don't have a carbon filter, but my pool is fairly "Green" both in color and in chemical usage. The previous owner set it up because he considers greener water to be more natural, and not necessarily unhealthy. I have turned the chlorine up to maximum, and the water is still fairly soft, but clean IMHO. This winter, I have not had to "Shock" the pool after a rainfall like the PO said I might, which is good, because I don't know how to do that anyway. Any advice? Also, the pool is not growing shit in it. When I say "Green" I'm just comparing it to the majority of pools that I've been in that were so over chlorinated as to embarrass a Caribbean beach in terms of clarity, and cause near discomfort in the people that swam in it, not to mention hair discoloration. My pool doesn't do that.

3. I'm not sure I see this being a big issue. I think that in whatever SHTF that both water and electricity will either be on or off at about the same time. I know that I must maintain a certain water level, and the PO has told me that he basically never had to fill the pool because of all the rain we get here naturally. Even so, there's a PVC pipe embedded in concrete that I can fill the pool with by just turning a knob. No need to get the garden hose out. I'm well aware that I can't let the pumps suck air, but If I'm considering this pool to siphon off water for survival I'm assuming that there is no electricity and there is no air problem with the pump to worry about.

So I'm good, right? :D
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby looksharmless » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:09 am

I'm really liking this thread. I've been thinking about pools, less for the recreational value (although that would be great), more to serve as a big ol' cistern. So these are all things I've been wondering, too. Thanks, Lee!
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby FanaticalModerate » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:20 am

Vicarious_Lee wrote:So I'm good, right? :D

Yes.
The algaecides are my only big worry, and if they're not in play, things ought to be good. Algae's mostly not a big deal, compared to algaecides, in terms of being able to use the water in SHTF situations.

And even if for some reason the pool's not a good choice for drinking water, the water is still available for hygiene, cleaning, flushing, etc. I've had a few minor "prep fails" because I always underestimated how much water is needed for that.

Funny thought for the more, um, "cautious" ZS'rs... a murky, algae-filled might be a neat place to cache things. (Idea stolen from R. Heinlein)
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby JojoZS » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:25 am

FanaticalModerate wrote:
Vicarious_Lee wrote:So I'm good, right? :D

Yes.
The algaecides are my only big worry, and if they're not in play, things ought to be good. Algae's mostly not a big deal, compared to algaecides, in terms of being able to use the water in SHTF situations.

And even if for some reason the pool's not a good choice for drinking water, the water is still available for hygiene, cleaning, flushing, etc. I've had a few minor "prep fails" because I always underestimated how much water is needed for that.

Funny thought for the more, um, "cautious" ZS'rs... a murky, algae-filled might be a neat place to cache things. (Idea stolen from R. Heinlein)


I have an above ground pool. I have enough drinking water stored for a couple of weeks. The pool will hold all my washing, flushing water.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Blacksmith » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:29 am

You got the correct answer on the first response. A big Berkey style black filters can take care of the pool chemicals and any other floaters.

Potential problems might be 9/11 type dust from nearby destroyed buildings in the case of a major terrorist attack. I know you said your plan was not to survive a nuclear war but what about a limited scale nuclear terror attack? You will probably survive that one easily in spite of yourself.

Water filled with various heavy mass is very difficult to filter. Nothing filters radiation, but in a small scale nuclear attack near by you will likely be leaving anyway.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby raptor » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:09 am

A pool is a natural settling pond.

If "9/11 type" debris gets into the pool over time the larger and heavier particles will settle to the bottom. The finer particles (to a point) should be picked up by the sand or DE filter. This will greatly reduce contaminants.

Using the pool water for black and grey water (clothes cleaning, toilet flushing, etc) uses really negates the need to purify the water beyond what the filtration system will remove and if your plan is to use the water for black water uses then even the filtration is not required.

I have a shunt off my pool filter that allows me to pipe the water to a large AC water filter if I choose to do so. However the problem with depending upon a filter is that they wear out. The AC gets loaded up with contaminants and the filter looses effectiveness.

Navarre1095 (our resident expert on water treatment) has posted several excellent threads on water quality. Here is a link to his Hall of Fame Threads.

My opinion is that in a SHTF situation I would rather use pool water that is relatively clean than water from an unknown source.

Edited to add the link mentioned above: :oops:
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=53446
Last edited by raptor on Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Vicarious_Lee » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:15 pm

Where's Navarre's thread? I couldn't find it in the Hall Of Fame, though I was honored to see that Prep Fail made it in.

Concerning "Black Water", I haven't really thought about how that runoff pond behind my house could flush toilets until my kid goes off to college in a long-term SHTF. Besides, in a long-term SHTF that pond would become all Thurd Wurld in a hurry.

So, sweet. Got my pool for drinking and gray water, that big pond for black water, and I've got water stores in the house as well as my WaterSafes if I have time to fill them up.

I think I'm all nice n' watered up. :D
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby raven1093 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:26 pm

it would be ok for washing and such but not for drinking... clorine is not that good for your body and can make you sick.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby ZombieGranny » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:51 pm

Gray water and black water are what water is after it is used.
Gray water is from laundry, hot tub and dish washing, black water is after toilet use.

Rather than guess, just get it tested. Take your pool water, run it through your filter, and send it in.
IIRC it cost about $30 for each sample.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Jamie » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:38 pm

Get a katadyn basecamp gravity filter (around $50), and use the water...

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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby raptor » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:57 pm

Vicarious_Lee wrote:Where's Navarre's thread? I couldn't find it in the Hall Of Fame, though I was honored to see that Prep Fail made it in.



Sorry I forgot to post the link.
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=53446


raven1093 wrote:it would be ok for washing and such but not for drinking... clorine is not that good for your body and can make you sick.


Let me point out that most municipalities in the US add chlorine to drinking water. The question is what is the level of chlorine in the pool? Most pool owners learn quickly how easy it is to regulate chlorine content and this is a manageable issue.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Vicarious_Lee » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:07 pm

raptor wrote:
Vicarious_Lee wrote:Where's Navarre's thread? I couldn't find it in the Hall Of Fame, though I was honored to see that Prep Fail made it in.



Sorry I forgot to post the link.
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=53446


raven1093 wrote:it would be ok for washing and such but not for drinking... clorine is not that good for your body and can make you sick.


Let me point out that most municipalities in the US add chlorine to drinking water. The question is what is the level of chlorine in the pool? Most pool owners learn quickly how easy it is to regulate chlorine content and this is a manageable issue.


Yeah, I got the chlorine tuning thing down, and I'm not scared to have my water be a little "natural", though I think I'll take it cleaner than the previous owner liked it. Also, I may just send in 4 jars of water. 1 from the pond, 1 from my pool, and 1 from each after being run through my MSR filter.

ZG, where is it that I'm supposed to just "send it"? Haven't figured out a good, cheap, reliable water tester out there. Anyone know of some good companies that'll do this?
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby raptor » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:34 pm

Vicarious_Lee wrote:PM Navarre and see if he a link to a cheap test but reliable test kit or lab
http://www.simpltek.com/index.html

Yeah, I got the chlorine tuning thing down, and I'm not scared to have my water be a little "natural", though I think I'll take it cleaner than the previous owner liked it. Also, I may just send in 4 jars of water. 1 from the pond, 1 from my pool, and 1 from each after being run through my MSR filter.

ZG, where is it that I'm supposed to just "send it"? Haven't figured out a good, cheap, reliable water tester out there. Anyone know of some good companies that'll do this?


Not cheap but reliable
http://www.envirotestltd.com/commercial-services.htm

Cheap but not as reliable:
http://www.simpltek.com/index.html

PM Navarre and see if he a link to a cheap test but reliable test kit or lab
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby ZombieGranny » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:46 pm

Don't know where the thurd coast is, but check out this site for locations.
Depending on how many contaminants you test for, a water test can cost from $15 to hundreds of dollars.
We used to send in little vials from our well, and I think it took a week or two.
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/labs/index.html
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby tool133 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:47 pm

Blacksmith wrote:... Nothing filters radiation, but in a small scale nuclear attack near by you will likely be leaving anyway.


It's irrelevant to filter radiation. The subatomic particles and ionizing energy that make up "radiation" are emmitted by radioactive isotopes contained in dust or fallout. The dust and fallout can be filtered quite effectively therefore preventing radioactive particles from being ingested.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby sql_yoda » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:13 pm

tool133 wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:... Nothing filters radiation, but in a small scale nuclear attack near by you will likely be leaving anyway.


It's irrelevant to filter radiation. The subatomic particles and ionizing energy that make up "radiation" are emmitted by radioactive isotopes contained in dust or fallout. The dust and fallout can be filtered quite effectively therefore preventing radioactive particles from being ingested.


I dont know whether I trust ZS posters or the gov's severely outdated info wrt a radiological attack. All I know for sure is that the old wisdom doesn't really lose anything without further info; better safe than sorry.

You can say it's irrelevant all you want, I still would take as many precautions that a jury-rigged filtration system can handle before relying on an exposed swimming pool to provide life-sustaining water. If that includes putting several purposeful 90 degree pipe bends in the delivery system, I'd do it. We are, after all, talking about drinking out of a pool that children routinely pee in over a 'fresh' groundwater source like a well or a fast-moving stream.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby tool133 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:51 am

sql_yoda wrote:
tool133 wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:... Nothing filters radiation, but in a small scale nuclear attack near by you will likely be leaving anyway.
You can say it's irrelevant all you want, I still would take as many precautions that a jury-rigged filtration system can handle before relying on an exposed swimming pool to provide life-sustaining water. If that includes putting several purposeful 90 degree pipe bends in the delivery system, I'd do it...
When it comes to radiation, a lot of people tend to over-engineer things. Once you learn about radioactivity and truly understand how it works you'll actually see its not quite as scary as you may have previously thought.

Radioactivity 101:
An atom is a structure made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. Stable atoms contain these particles in equal numbers. If the numbers are unequal, they are called an isotope of an atom. Most isotopes are radioactive. Because the radioactive atoms want to be stable, they emit excess particles until they reach a balance. Alpha particles are a bundle of two protons and two neutrons. Beta particles are usually an electron. Gamma rays are a wave of energy, like an x-ray but more powerful.
When Alpha particles strike another atom, they either cause it to split into two different atoms or add to the atom and create a new element (i.e. an alpha particle can strike an iron atom and it becomes a radioactive isotope of nickel) When a beta particle strikes an atom it releases an x-ray. Gamma rays are much more powerful, they are not a particle but an energy like a radio wave. When it strikes an atom it knocks an electron loose which becomes a beta particle. Sometimes a gamma ray is powerful enough to cause an atom to shed an alpha particle and two beta particles. When this happens the atom is a completely different element. For example, a potassium element becomes chlorine. This process repeats until there isn't any more energy to break an electron free from its orbit around the nucleus of an atom.

Radiation is dangerous to us because we are complex machines relying on millions of chemical reactions taking place every second involving every cell in our body. If an atom changes from one element to another it will produce a different chemical reaction. This will alter how a cell behaves. In the case of a gamma or x-ray, the cell or its DNA molecule becomes damaged to the point it either dies or mutates. When cells become damaged they can produce symptoms of a burn due to the body's reaction to repair the cell, or the damaged DNA molecule can become corrupt enough to behave in ways it isn't programmed to. Normally the body destroys cells that behave irregularly but when their numbers overwhelm our defenses they become cancerous. Obviously, radiation is only dangerous to living things and not inanimate objects. In the grand scheme of things, there are about 1000000000000000000 atoms of carbon and oxygen and twice as many hydrogen atoms in a single sugar crystal (C-12, H-22, O-11). Prolonged exposure to radiation over a long period of time would still fail to produce a number of changed atoms or resulting molecules in a number sufficient enough to detect with the world's most sensitive instruments.

Because radiation is either a particle that is eventually absorbed by another atom or an energy wave that causes a chain reaction of disintegration until it loses enough energy that atoms are unaffected, shielding can prevent radiation from reaching our bodies. Denser atoms provide better shielding than lighter atoms because their greater number of atomic particles in their structure and associated energy bonds offer more absorbtion capabilities than a lighter atom. Lead is the densest non-radioactive element, which is why it is considered the best shield. The more shielding between you and the source of radioactivity, the better the chances the radiation is absorbed by the shielding.

In conclusion, it is impossible to filter out a subatomic particle or energy. If the fallout particles (which are able to be filtered out of, or even isolated entirely from the water supply) are prevented from being consumed, you are prevented from ingesting a source of billions of unstable atom, i.e. radioactive particle, and therefore the many cells in your body aren't being cooked.

Radiation for ZS'ers:
Imagine a fallout particle as a group of drunk retards armed with glock 19's, AR-15's and Mossburg 590 A1's. Each drunk retard is a radioactive isotope. They are all shooting in random directions, using their mix of weapons, all at once. Keeping this group out of your BIL is a good idea. A wall will block you from the gunfire, the thicker wall the better. While you may have windows on your wall that allows the occasional bullet or slug to enter and harmlessly strike the walls and furnishings, the group as a whole cannot enter and is therefore not a serious threat. Not being within the confines of the wall, the milkman is fucked. Eventually the group will run out of ammo and sober up and no longer be a threat.


For those interested in learning about radiation
You can take a course about radioactivity through FEMA's online training site (Emergency Management Institute) All of this information is the same stuff I've learned in physics courses, so it isn't government propaganda.
http://emilms.fema.gov/IS3/FEMA_IS/is03/index.htm


FWIW, the best way to keep swimming pool water from being contaminated from radioactive contamination is putting a cover on it. If you're that close to the source of the fallout that you don't have enough time to cover your pool, you have bigger problems. :shock:
I dont know your purpose behind the 90-degree bends in your plumbing, other than relating it to 90-degree bends in shelter entrances. All that would accomplish is lowering your water pressure due to friction loss. 90-degree entrances are used in shelters to provide shielding in places that would otherwise be a weak spot, such as doorways.

ETA: minor errors in grammar.
Last edited by tool133 on Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby kiwilrdg » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:57 am

No matter how many times you try you will never get folks to use the proper RADCON terms for contamination and radiation.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Doctor_Zombie » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:47 pm

My preps totally include the 4800 gallons of water my 15 foot round, above ground pool holds. I've got water filters and it's chlorinated year round. In terms of survival, it's hydration and - with filtering, boiling, etc - I'm not at all concerned about the residual chlorine.

Of course, an NBC attack would completely change the situation, but in a PAW situation like an EMP or collapse of society that doesn't involve contaminants, it'll do in a pinch.

Of course, in that same vein, I live within walking distance of Lake Erie.
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Re: Can I count my swimming pool as "water" when SHTF?

Postby Biff » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:46 am

Regarding algae: if you find yourself needing pool water, turn off the heater. Algae grows much faster in warm water than cold water.

BTW, I'm not sure how much of a health risk algae presents. It is common to draw and filter water from natural sources where moderate levels of algae are present. If the algae gets bad enough that it's making the water cloudy it will clog your filter more quckly. In that case one could pretreat with a cheap particulate filter.
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