Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

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Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Iprotectmine » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:07 pm

I'm pretty well committed to a job that is great for the current world, but not so great for a ZPAW world. I probably won't be changing that. But it does make me curious for those who may be planning their education and careers, what jobs would be especially high paying in the current world and also rise to the top in a ZPAW world? Just to make it a little more stringent, let's put a minimum salary of $100k in the current world. So fire rescue, paramedics, police, and most nurses probably don't meet the cutoff (not that those aren't great jobs, they're just not usually $100k+). And let's assume that the job should have skills and experience directly applicable to a ZPAW world.

I'll get us started.

The most obvious job to me would be a physician, especially one specializing in emergency medicine (many other physicians would do well also).

Civil engineers would probably do great in a ZPAW world (every group needs potable water), and I assume that some civil engineers make $100k (someone please confirm or disconfirm that assumption).

I assume that there are some Blackwater types that make $100k+ that would probably find their skills applicable in a ZPAW world.

I've heard that large farms can be quite lucrative, although the most lucrative ones probably rely on technology that might not work so well in a ZPAW world.

What else might meet both criteria?

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by raptor » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:31 pm

One thing to consider is that depending upon the circumstances of a PAW certain occupations that are not well compensated today may become much more valuable to the community (also assuming that the PAW has an economy and job market). For instance a precision machinist may not earn your minimum salary today but may actually be in great demand to make repacement parts.

These occupations may include:

Blacksmith/Machinist
Farrier
Small Appliance Repairer
Electronic Technician/Repairer
Small Engine and Diesel Engine Mechanic



These professions meet your base level at least after a few years of work experience would likely be PAW resistant and thus in demand:

Chemical Engineer
Veternarian
Petroleum Engineer
Entrepreneaur
Pharmacist
Dentist

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Richter » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:38 pm

Iprotectmine wrote:I assume that there are some Blackwater types that make $100k+ that would probably find their skills applicable in a ZPAW world.
unless they already have a retreat set up, anybody w/o one would probably become a raider or a corpse. Even the high-speed operators. Think about it. Their house is destroyed and they have no where to go. Unless they find "work" at a military stronghold or some surviving city needing protection, they are likely to become raiders.

as far as what jobs would be good, I assume it would be somewhere along the lines of a physician (as mentioned), dentist, gunsmith, tailor, shoemaker, butchers and herbologists (or some other plant-growing guru) and maybe a blacksmith. As you can see, not all of these are high-paying right now but they will be invaluable in the PAW. There's a quote out there from someone (too lazy to look for it, besides, gotta get ready for work) that says "specialization is for insects". So a combination of a lot of skills is optimal.

my .02 cents worth

edit: ahhh, Raptor beat me to it

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by therianthrope » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:52 pm

As touched on by others, most of the skill sets that would be invaluable in the PAW, are even just hobbies in modern society (carpentry, blacksmithing, tailoring/leatherworking/cobbling, gunsmithing, botany, hunting/fishing, HAM radio operator, etc.). But when SHTF these are the people who would run any emergent society. Most 100K jobs of today would be doing manual labor, turning soil in a field.

Although I think one of the high-paying modern jobs that would translate into PAW and was neglected in above lists, would be a farmer/rancher. Certainly not every farmer/rancher meets your (arbitrary) 100K criteria, but there are certainly many that do and the ability to operate large scale agriculture in a PAW is going to be among the most valuable.

I think a more meaningful list, would be to establish hobbies that would be invaluable in a PAW (not trying to high-jack your thread).
I've heard that large farms can be quite lucrative
Edit: Yeah, I missed this :P
Last edited by therianthrope on Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Mjolnir » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:01 pm

I agree with those above me. Most high-paying jobs right now will not be needed in a Z-PAW unless humanity made a massive rebound. Another industry that is worth looking into would be those that would aid sustainable living. Such as the Solar power industry. Not only is it getting loads of attention with the "green" movement. In a Z-PAW sustainable power would be is extremely high demand. Another note worthy fact would you will not be making 100k a year in a Z-PAW, you would however be trading for goods. I.E. Food, Water filtration systems ( which if you use solar power is not an issue ). Just some food for thought.



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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by XtraBright » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:05 pm

Iprotectmine wrote: I've heard that large farms can be quite lucrative, although the most lucrative ones probably rely on technology that might not work so well in a ZPAW world.

What else might meet both criteria?
I make my money with that technology that runs farms, luckily made it up to a nice office job in all those years, mostly clients from russia, ukraine today.. pretty big and impressive stuff.

Basically ..in a PAW these companies (forget about any "farmer" advertisement image) are FUBAR.
As are most privately owned farms. To keep up with the necessary growth (inflation) everything is automated and even worse: is totally reliant on a running society.

From soy beans from argentinia that get to the farm with trucks, to powerlines to external support and repair. All those control systems are advanced stuff the most local electricians aren´t able to maintain or repair, even worse in the eastern parts of europe.

Todays farms and equipment are not designed to be "worked" by people, even a wheel barrow is to big for most spaces that are only built to allow control and repair of functions and motors.

50% of my customers are living from substance since 2 years because prices for meat/milk/corn deflate strongly in a crisis (like in the Great Depression), 25% live and 25% percent make money.

This financial situation is getting worse and i expect most of them to go down in the coming Greater Depression.
If the owners think that the situation is not getting better or they won´t make the needed return (most are profit driven investment funds) they will lay off their people and simply close the facility.

It does not pay high today but "growing stuff", from potatoes to meat and having the means and knowledge to do it without having to rely on external factors could be a good deal in the future.

Being able to maintain your equipment and make some extra cash by doing it for others would be an extra, as would be to build basic things out of scrap, HighTech would dimish very fast in my expected zombie scenario as would anything related to it.

I think the aftermath of a PAW should be described as a resizing of society, from a country/state/continental size to an medieval 30km (or even smaller) range size. I know what is available in my radius and what is not.
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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Silent Kube » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:06 pm

I'd say something like a nuclear engineer or some such. If you're the only one who knows how to bring the power plants back online and keep them that way, I'd say you pretty much have a golden ticket.
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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Necrodamus » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:14 pm

forgot one major career

Mortician/GraveDigger

even in the ZPAW nobody wants poor aunt Wanda just laying there rotting.

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by therianthrope » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:56 pm

Probably only in rare individual cases does this meet your 100K criteria, but entertainers would be very valuable in any PAW scenario as well.

Singers, instrumentalists and the like. Even -or perhaps especially- in PAW, people want to be entertained, right?

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Iprotectmine » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:53 pm

raptor wrote:One thing to consider is that depending upon the circumstances of a PAW certain occupations that are not well compensated today may become much more valuable to the community (also assuming that the PAW has an economy and job market). For instance a precision machinist may not earn your minimum salary today but may actually be in great demand to make repacement parts.

These occupations may include:

Blacksmith/Machinist
Farrier
Small Appliance Repairer
Electronic Technician/Repairer
Small Engine and Diesel Engine Mechanic
I definately agree that many jobs that are currently underappreciated would become much more appeciated in a ZPAW. But my question focuses on jobs that are financially comfortable in both worlds, to the degre that is possible.

Some good responses so far.

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Iprotectmine » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:56 pm

pmpmzd6 wrote: There's a quote out there from someone (too lazy to look for it, besides, gotta get ready for work) that says "specialization is for insects".
That's Robert Heinlein, one of my favorite authors. Unless he borrowed it from someone else (possible).

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by JTNieman » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:03 pm

I'm a structural designer (not engineer)

I'd like to think that, probably not initially, but after people start to rebuild... I might be of worth to my society :)

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by bae » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:04 pm

Escort

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by therianthrope » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:20 pm

my question focuses on jobs that are financially comfortable in both worlds
Not trying to stifle your discussion, but this is kind of meaningless.

For one: "financially comfortable", especially today, is completely subjective criteria; depending on an areas cost of living and an individuals lifestyle which of course is highly variable. Millions of people live quite comfortably on a yearly income a fraction of your 100K qualification of "financially comfortable".

But also it seems like "finacially comfortable" in PAW is almost a nonsensical term because as mentioned above there probably wouldn't be much of a currency for a long time and no one's going to be making 100K even by any measurable barter equivalent, because there probably would simply not be that kind of wealth available.

In a PAW, society would -especially initially- probably be much more communal. No one would be comfortable by today's standards, probably for a very long time.

It seems like what you're getting at is more - what high-paying jobs today would make me appealing to, say, a PAW-society who has closed gates and only lets "useful" people in? Or the like...

Really, if you're planning your career path so as to be rich by today and PAW standards, that's kind of silly. You should pick a career today that you are interested in and maybe even enjoy or at least can stand and then work on useful hobbies on the side because they're useful today and in PAW.

Because, I think as mentioned above, the answer is diversity. The more skills you have the more desirable you are. In a PAW, you are probably not going to have just one job where you go clock-in do whatever and clock-out.

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Iprotectmine » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:31 pm

therianthrope wrote:
For one: "financially comfortable", especially today, is completely subjective criteria; depending on an areas cost of living and an individuals lifestyle which of course is highly variable. Millions of people live quite comfortably on a yearly income a fraction of your 100K qualification of "financially comfortable".
I agree that financially comfortable is subjective. I came from a low income family, and we did just fine with what we had. But the subjective nature of "financially comfortable" is precisely why a cutoff is helpful; otherwise, everyone would have a different definition of financially comfortable and every job could be included. I agree that the cutoff is arbitrary. Any cutoff could be chosen. I just thought that would be a reasonable one because it is fairly strict but no impossibly so.
therianthrope wrote: But also it seems like "finacially comfortable" in PAW is almost a nonsensical term because as mentioned above there probably wouldn't be much of a currency for a long time and no one's going to be making 100K even by any measurable barter equivalent, because there probably would simply not be that kind of wealth available.
I also agree that the nature of wealth changes in s ZPAW. But I'm hoping that people will still understand the spirit of my question, which focuses on which jobs that pay well today would also set people up especially well in a ZPAW world (relatively speaking, of course).
therianthrope wrote:Really, if you're planning your career path so as to be rich by today and PAW standards, that's kind of silly. You should pick a

career today that you are interested in and maybe even enjoy or at least can stand and then work on useful hobbies on the side because they're useful today and in PAW
I agree that ZPAW usefulness should not be the sole criterion in choosing a job. I'll be the first to admit that my career doesn't translate to a ZPAW world very well, but I'm happy with my career. But that doesn't mean it is not useful to consider ZPAW implications.

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by tom_saxon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:12 pm

I agree with the above pretty much. There are some 'police' who make 100k+ a year, but they are usually in supervisory and instructor positions. Likewise with "Blackwater types". That's called Private Security Not unarmed observe and report security, but armed and active asset protection. Some of those guys make $1,000 a day, some of them make $1,000 a week. Depends on where and what they are doing, but again, those in supervisor roles make more. This covers everything from critical infrastructure protection to vip protection. Uniformed secret service fire arm instructors make $80k and up. That's pretty close.

IMO security first. The more resources you can secure, the more wealthy you would be in the paw. Property would not be worth any more to a person or group than the force protecting it.

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by MacAttack » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:34 am

Earn what ever you can today doing whatever your capable of today.


Steer your general knowledge toward the PAW skills you will need individually to survive for a year. Steer a hobby into an eventual PAW career.


Think of it like this.
In the PAW would being able to build Solar panels be worth anything? That industry would collapse.
You want to be the guy who does the final installations on individual homes.
And anyone can do that manual labor with a little training and a year or so of experience. Your basic electrician now can do it and many roofers are gaining the experience also.
A few schematics and a few electrical formulas and you'll be "designing" small set ups also.
Your biggest problem will be scrounging the panels and other components in the PAW.

Being the engineer designing the panels? No. Being the guy in the factory assembling the panels? No.
Being a skilled tradesman NOW will better translate to a needed skill then.

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by MacAttack » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:39 am

tom_saxon wrote: IMO security first. The more resources you can secure, the more wealthy you would be in the paw. Property would not be worth any more to a person or group than the force protecting it.

Actually this sort of comment translates into direct theft.

And as for security forces. Every uniformed armed person looks like every other uniformed armed person to the common man. No one would know the difference in your 100,000 dollar a year instructors and your 20,000 dollar a year rookie patrolman. Or a group of well dressed and armed "thugs".

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Finch » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:47 am

payroll consultant


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my blog: GarandThumb.com

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Blast » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:54 am

Chemist, though you'll probably need a Ph.D. to crack the six-figure income.

Come the PAW chemists can distill alcohol (and already have the equipment!); make assorted propellents and explosives; synthesize simple medicines (sulfa drugs come to mind); make soap, bleach, vinegar, and electricity; and teach assorted classes including math and science to keep knowledge alive.

Joke from my college days: If you want a bridge call and engineer. If you DON'T want a bridge, call a chemist. :D

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by Ad'lan » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:39 am

Blast wrote:Chemist, though you'll probably need a Ph.D. to crack the six-figure income.

Come the PAW chemists can distill alcohol (and already have the equipment!); make assorted propellents and explosives; synthesize simple medicines (sulfa drugs come to mind); make soap, bleach, vinegar, and electricity; and teach assorted classes including math and science to keep knowledge alive.

Joke from my college days: If you want a bridge call and engineer. If you DON'T want a bridge, call a chemist. :D

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by TheDelusionalBlogger » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:59 am

Depending on the situation engineers could be very useful. Also I am pretty sure every field of engineering has the potential to make you over 100k.
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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by LeeG » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:43 pm

The fiction trilogy starting with the book "Island in the Sea of Time" by SM Sterling really explores this as a background to the story.

In a PAW, individuals can live, but it will be communities that survive. Individuals within those communities will do better or worse depending on what qualifications they bring. Supplies you have saved up will aid in getting through the initial shock, but after that, it will be what you can do with what you have.

In response to the OP:
Medical/Dental
Machinist/Blacksmith/Metal worker
Civil/Mechanical/Design Engineer
Boat Building/Repair

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Re: Jobs that have high pay now and would also succeed in ZPAW?

Post by tom_saxon » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:20 pm

MacAttack wrote:
tom_saxon wrote: IMO security first. The more resources you can secure, the more wealthy you would be in the paw. Property would not be worth any more to a person or group than the force protecting it.

Actually this sort of comment translates into direct theft.
Controlling resources has always been the key to everything- it is how things worked in the very beginning of life, it is how things work in our civilized world, and it will be how things work in the paw. The thing is, right now, we have this enormous pooled resource we call government and industry which secures resources for us. Take that way and it will be up to smaller groups pooling their resources and/or individuals to secure their resources.

It is only theft if you look at it that way. Another way of looking at it is preventing theft of your own property. You can legally own all the resources you want, but -in the paw- if you lack the means to secure them they DEFINITELY will not remain your resources for long. Its just reality, what a person or group cannot secure belongs to anyone else who can take it.
And as for security forces. Every uniformed armed person looks like every other uniformed armed person to the common man. No one would know the difference in your 100,000 dollar a year instructors and your 20,000 dollar a year rookie patrolman. Or a group of well dressed and armed "thugs".
Not to be rude, but so what? I don't see how that makes any difference. The common man sees camp x getting its ass kicked by camp z and losing all of its resources to it, it will immediately recognize the quality of leadership of both camps. Maybe camp x is a hippy commune that thinks security is theft and anyone in uniform necessarily 'a thug', so they use thugs to secure their operation, while camp z is lead by actual former or current security, law enforcement or military professionals, understands that they won't keep what they don't secure, and so uses people used to to following orders and acting in a disciplined way as their security force.

And its not like camp z will even be the aggressors. Imagine things like abutting fertile acreage- where is the property line? Do you think either camp will dig through the remaining scrap pile of humanity to find a surveyor and a lawyer to survey and research property lines, federal, state and county property laws, and do you really think either side would abide by what such a colossal waste of resources would come up with as a result?

Do you really think both camps would waste enough resources to set up some kind of arbitration? No, they would farm what they think is their land and that would result in armed escorts going out with the farmers which would result in skirmishes which would likely result in feuds and larger conflict.

That is just one example of one kind of dispute. It would be many years into the paw before some sort of common law was established. By common law, I really mean Common Law. Civilization would be in a ground-up rebuilding process and that would be a big part of it. It would be an accelerated repeat of how common law came to be in the west in the first place. You would have customary law which would require some type of arbitrator to see cases, and the case history would result in the evolution of a new common law. Before that you would have a series of long, bloody disputes.

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