The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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Ableto
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Ableto » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:00 pm

KnightoftheRoc wrote:Much of what you posted, Ableto, is solid, and has been the position of many of the members on ZS, posting here, and in other threads. I do think you have missed ODA's point in the other thread, but that point is based on a phenomenon that has arisen here on ZS, and not being all that old long-term a member on here, you might be unaware of the context his position is offered in.

As I said, much of what you just posted, I agree with- except this part, which is utterly FAIL:
"Being gray is useful that can help get you out of a bind as long as you play the part. If your in a bad area and you see a cop, its best to go up to the cop and ask for directions or get information about the area to help you plan your escape route."
I don't know how many emergencies you've actually been a part of, or how, or what other experience you might have. But it's been MY experience, and I'm only speaking for myself here, that contact with Law Enforcement should be avoided at all costs, unless you actually NEED the services they offer. I'm pretty confident in this position, based on my own experience, and that of others, some of whom are LEO's themselves, and/or experienced Katrina firsthand.

I'm not saying that the cops are automatically 'the enemy', at any time, merely that in an emergency, they have their hands full, and are understandably working on a heightened sense of awareness. In some cases, maybe a little TOO heightened, but they are human, and that's human nature- they want to go home to their families when it's over with, too.

That heightened sense of awareness that serves as a positive for you when using it, acts as a negative for you when someone else is using it. In the case of approaching the officer, he's not expecting "Officer, I can't find my mommy!", he's looking for trouble in any guise it may wear. If you are CCW-ing, he's going to be looking for that, and may spot your weapon. Maybe your weapon 'prints' badly. Maybe he just thinks you "look like the type" to whatever, and he's going to be predisposed to give you a bad day. Even in the best case scenario, he's busy, has his hands full, and you are just one more thing to add to the pile of crap he's dealing with. If you happen to pick one that has some prejudice against "your type", be it race, hair color, or whatever, your day may go from bad to SUCK in a real hurry- and, you could have avoided it.

Do your research beforehand- KNOW your area, know the routes, know the alternates, so you don't HAVE to ask directions, not even for the sake of appearances. The fact alone that you have made yourself 'known' to the officer means you are now no longer 'grey', because you HAVE been noticed. And, you could have avoided it.
I think you missed the point i was getting at and is the same point i was saying back in the counter point thread. Its based on timing. As in all the stuff im talking about is during a time before the SHTF as in the laws of society are still in place and cops will still need to deal with things even if they are stressed or not, and if you accidentally travel into a bad area and feel your being followed, if you see a cop and goto to them it might be a safer thing to deal with then who might be following you. Anyone trying to avoid a cop might draw more attention to the cop. Also since its not yet a SHTF situation, you really would not want to be showing any weapons anyway at this time because it brings up more questions with cops that see you. Also im not saying run up to them. Im saying head toward them but in a manner that is comfortable for them to know your not a threat. In a disaster situation, many other ppl might be on the same street so the cops might be there to see where ppl are going or to make sure the area is ok before moving onto the next area. Yes some cops might do stupid things during a disaster, but being open and showing your not a threat and you need to talk to them for one reason or another can help.

Also when trying to get out of town you will come across cops that might have road blocks or check points that you will have to deal with. So ether way you will have to deal with cops or other law enforcement you come across. If your traveling home or headed for the hills, sometimes playing the part that your average joe headed to a specific place might help you not get questioned by the cops, depending on who you come up to. Im not saying its a 100% sure thing to do for safety. It could be better then dealing with ppl that could be following you to do harm. Also avoiding the cops could seem fishy to them if they spot you as in your driving along and see a checkpoint and you decide to go down another street, dont be surprised if a cop follows you and stops you and asks questions. Its called dealing with the situation and learning how to go through the situation and move on. Be the gray man, know your goal and be the part of the gray many that helps you get to where your going. If you come up to a cop, then learn to deal with it. If you come up to ppl that want to do harm, you learn to deal with it. Hiding from ppl is simple and sometimes seen as fishy when your spotted, but learning to hide out in the open does work. You just need to learn what to do and what to say to get you to where you need to go to reach your goal.

Yes its good to know the areas beforehand, but what if gangs or other ppl doing harm in the area shift to other areas. Sometimes just asking what areas to avoid do to gunfire or riots or looting would be a good thing to know and to avoid. Also it helps to re up your in-tell of the areas ahead. Its all down to how you play the part of the gray man. Also not everyone will be carrying a gun due to laws in the area/country they live in. So again how are ppl going to get by without a weapon of some sort, going to a cop is a viable option when needed. Just think of your options when they come up.
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KnightoftheRoc
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:39 pm

I stand by my previous post.
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Ableto » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:57 am

What i still dont get is why some feel that dressing up in full tactical camo or sort gear and trying to hide in the city think they can hide going from street to street. They think no one will ever see them. Also when your sneeking around carrying the same life giving gear that others want when you are spotted. That they will also be a target because of the gear they have.

Like i said before and i will say again, being gray is just a small part of helping you get where you need to go and helps hide things you dont want others around you to know. Wearing tactical gear just tells others your a threat or an easy target for supplies. Dressing in any clothes will make you a target, but dressing like most of the ppl around you has a better way of being overlooked. But it dont stop there. Knowing the patterns of the ppl around you and knowing what you can and cant do depending on the situation can help you survive. Hiding helps but when your trying to get out of the city with the other 100,000+ travelers out there, you running from bush to bush or alley to alley might get you funny looks from the masses in the area your in.

Its all down to timing. Learn when to leave town before the shtf. Wear what you normally wear and get out of town before the cops block the roads. Look for the signs, warnings. If caught in the shtf situation, good luck. For wearing tactical gear or gray man wont work when the bullets go flying.
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by ODA 226 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:40 am

KnightoftheRoc wrote:I stand by my previous post.
I'm with you brother Knight! What we got here is...Failure to communicate! :lol: Some men, you just can't reach..... :lol: You know what I mean. :wink:
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Ableto » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:53 pm

ODA 226 wrote:
KnightoftheRoc wrote:I stand by my previous post.
I'm with you brother Knight! What we got here is...Failure to communicate! :lol: Some men, you just can't reach..... :lol: You know what I mean. :wink:
See your mocking me again. And to just point out, not everything will be perfect hide and be sneaky situations where no one will spot you leaving the city. So who here is really being hard to reach.

So both you are pretty much saying that when you see a cop and some how he notices you and you decide to very blatantly go out of your way to avoid him or her really sends up flags for the cops to say your up to something.

But really are you trying to say more then 99% of the cops in the world cant be trusted? I would like to hear from some cops that post here in the forums that say they should not be trusted before and during a shtf situation. Granted i would not want to go near a cop if they are holding a shotgun in a bad way that had an evil look in his eye to do harm. Im just saying if after a disaster before a shtf situation pops up, and some how your going through a bad neighborhood and you see a cop, its not always a good idea to avoid the cop especially if they see you, and at that point they might be helpful to get info for the area your headed. Like i said its down to timing.

So a question for you Oda, if the shtf and your trying to get out of the city. I know your going to plan many routes to take, but from all your sneaking around. How do you really know how things look on the many paths you take? As in you keep saying your going to sneak out during the night and try to avoid everyone. I want to know what your plans are to deal with the few times you will have to deal with ppl you come across. I know in the other thread you said you would hide in a spot to counter any bad happening that might happen. I just want to know how your going to look when its just a grp of ppl also leaving the city that dont care who you are or what you have. How do you react to said grp you happen upon. If its just a area with many ppl where lots of others are coming and going, are you going to just hide and question the ppl from behind a bush with your weapon at the ready? Really, there are times you just have to look at the situation and deal with it.

You talk big on demeaning me, but i never see any posts by you saying how you would handle the situation in detail or anything in detail counterpointing my posts. We are here to learn, so why dont you just teach us on how to deal with ppl you will sometimes come in contact with.
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:07 am

Ableto wrote:So both you are pretty much saying that when you see a cop and some how he notices you and you decide to very blatantly go out of your way to avoid him or her really sends up flags for the cops to say your up to something.

But really are you trying to say more then 99% of the cops in the world cant be trusted? I would like to hear from some cops that post here in the forums that say they should not be trusted before and during a shtf situation. Granted i would not want to go near a cop if they are holding a shotgun in a bad way that had an evil look in his eye to do harm. Im just saying if after a disaster before a shtf situation pops up, and some how your going through a bad neighborhood and you see a cop, its not always a good idea to avoid the cop especially if they see you, and at that point they might be helpful to get info for the area your headed. Like i said its down to timing.
I won't speak for anyone else, just myself. What I was saying, had you read my post, is that if you are being observant and careful, you'll spot the LEO before he spots you. Avoiding him at that point is anything BUT blatant.

No one to this point in the thread has said anything remotely like "99% of cops can't be trusted", I have no clue where you got that idea. What you consider to be "holding a shotgun in a bad way", or what constitutes an "evil look in his eye" sounds more like some rabid imagination issues, rather than based on any real-world experience. I deal with the local police on a rather steady basis, and none of them has ever shown up with anything I'd describe as an evil look in their eye.
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:20 am

EDIT: Move along folks, nothing to see here.
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by JToth » Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:50 am

To me the "gray man" is so multi-dimensional that it can be a contradiction.

I'm new to ZS so sorry for this late reply, but here is my $.02 and experience. I grew up on bases, my father did 20 years in the military as a special forces soldier and an intelligence NCO, and my Grandfather lived in Hungry during WW2 he was a very good at urban survivalism in shtf. What I have learned from them is that there is no one size fits all. Situational awareness is the most important element to any situation. Sometimes being loud and obvious is the best way to blend. Look at eyewitness reports to the police of an intended broad day illegal act, and either no one notices or everyone sees something different. Sometimes slinking in the shadows is the right thing to do. Special forces are a prime example of this. I don't mean to be tacti cool or anything else. Just you can learn a lot from there philosophy's. They operate in the worst case situations/scenarios. By the time you know they are there its to late. Your dead or they are out of the country already. Yes they have some fancy toys and backup, but they always train for not having that. They can take on any mask: a thug :evil: , a wimpy looser :| , ghost(hiding) :?: , and so many others :idea: .

The gray man should be an mask that you don as needed. I live in S. California. I am a white boy. I have never had a problem visiting Watts, Compton, or other troubled spots. I see problems before they arise and take action as needed. I have been in these areas at all hours of the day. The locals never mess with me. If they do notice me I portray the needed mask. I have cops ask me what agency I am with, construction workers what my specialty is, hood rats ask what my neighborhood is, and so on. Walk like you belong there, talk like you belong there, and you will blend with any crowd. But remember the old saying. Better to stay silent and be thought a fool then open your mouth and remove all doubt. In other words don't show all your cards.
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Murph » Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:03 pm

Read:
http://codenameinsight.blogspot.com/201 ... ninja.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Discuss...
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by squinty » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:49 am

Murph wrote:Read:
http://codenameinsight.blogspot.com/201 ... ninja.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Discuss...
A long winded way to say "be discreet" or "don't be an attention whore." Which is good advice.
George Orwell wrote:Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by MrEnigma » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:39 pm

The "grey man" persona is used to dull down the blip on the radar of society. It depends upon the society you are in and what the norms are. Violation of social norms is a huge blip and says "I'm not from this area and I'm strange". The problem with this philosophy is it has limited use. I had read through the thread and noticed a trend that it is limited by behavior. Advertisement is the key here. Force projection is advertisement of force. I would think that is a different goal entirely? Since the goal is to not stand out. I'll remember a guy/girl wearing a Laredo Bowie on his/her hip for sure. No matter how much he/she is blending into the surrounding environment, that is a blip. I would kind of think that is how everyone thinks.

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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Davo » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:11 pm

Murph wrote:Read:
http://codenameinsight.blogspot.com/201 ... ninja.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Discuss...
Nice blog, now I need to go back and read the previous years...
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Lynn LeFey » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:44 pm

Okay, so... what IS a gray man?
That was a joke. Don't murder me.

I just finished this whole thread. My review is that it could have used more editor input, and had too many secondary characters with poorly defined motivations. Volume three seemed to be made solely for the purpose of milking more money from the franchise. That's a long way of saying this has been an enormously long thread.

Just a note to begin with for the ninjas, commandos, and general bad-asses out there. I'm really happy that you're a 6 foot five rippling viking sex-god. I seriously am. I'm not that. A lot of us are born with genetics that dictate a finite stature and mass. I'm 5'5". That is about average for a female. I at least have the benefit should violence ever begin, that I'm build like a fireplug. In the Air Force, I was benching right at about 200 (it's more like 150 nowadays). I'm a (let's use the 'kind' phrasing) farm girl. Let's use the unkind phrasing: I'm a walking block. And worse, nowadays, I'm a walking block covered in a layer of R-200 insulation.

Just keep that in mind. Everyone has certain advantages and disadvantages that are sort of built-in. The OP, being of a heritage that gets him noticed. Being too tall. etc. Gray is easier for some folks to achieve than others.

I have two friends at the opposite ends of the spectrum in this regard. One could walk into a circle of folks, PARTICIPATE in the conversation, and someone would say 'Where's Cliff?', while he was in the circle. Super-super weird. Give that man a clip board, and he could walk into North Korea, and come out with their launch codes! And, by the way, the clipboard/rope thing is something that's been a standing joke among me and my friends since forever. Funny, because it is utterly true. I have another friend who would get into bar fights on a bi-weekly basis. He kept saying he never started the fight. So, I went out with him one day to lunch for fried chicken. For apparently no reason whatsoever, a guy across the room yells at him 'What are YOU looking at?'. My friend is a small, wiry guy, and as best we can figure, the problem is that he has these sort of deep inset eyes, that look like he's "eye-ballin'" people, that look drill sergeants give. When, in fact, he's just looking around. Now, I know for a fact that there's at least one bad decision required to end up in any bar fight, as they are notoriously limited to BARS, which you really don't ever have to go to. So, I can only lament his predicament so much before putting the blame on him.

Yes, there are tines when the gloves have to come off, but by and large, even in SHTF, everything is going to be better for you if there's never any violence. Pre-shtf, it's ABSOLUTELY better, unless you like rides in vehicles with pretty blinking lights, and evenings in concrete rooms with a variety of interesting people. Best just to avoid the problems altogether. That's what Gray is. You are not a target, you are not a challenge to someone else's pissing-distance record.

However, the very BEST camouflage fails on occasion. In these instances, if I went with an animal metaphor, I go with rattle snake. I will LET YOU KNOW audibly that I'm not really worth the trouble you're about to start, and I will rear up to let you know I'm willing to strike. I don't 'posture' very often, but I'd rather do that than go straight to violence. I have successfully navigated out of several possible physical confrontations simply by explaining how my goal in any fight was to get one of their appendages and bite it off. Amazingly effective.

As for the exact application of 'Gray', I've worked on occasion as an assistant for an electrician. I have noticed how very VERY invisible tradesmen are. We've worked some pretty rough neighborhoods, and never had problems. We've hung around very VERY rich neighborhoods with no problems. Work boots, jeans, and teeshirt, with button up long sleeve flannel shirt. Torn shirts and jeans are totally acceptable in the look. In cold weather, throw on a carhartts jacket, hooded sweatshirt, whatever. It's better if all articles of clothing have stains or random streaks of different colors of house paint. Pushing this as a gray 'look', tees should have no writing, or you may possibly get by with old distressed concert tees, assuming it's of a band with no strong political inclination. Van Halen is probably okay. Ted Nugent or Indigo Girls, probably not. For the love of all that is good... NO bumperstickers! As for vehicle color... I find it's more the locking tool box and ladder rack that says Tradesman. White pickups and vans (at least newish ones) are for big organizations. Any ford ranger/F150 (or equivalent) with a camper cap and/or ladder rack will work. The more beaten up (while still actually functioning), the better. One very strange thing I heard from a friend. I have been told that the Corolla is a vehicle often targeted by car thieves in L.A.. This isn't because the gangbangers wanted it for themselves, but use the parts to keep the cars of their girlfriends/mothers/etc working. The very fact of its ubiquitous nature becomes a potential detriment.

I bought a heavy lined flannel shirt recently for fall weather work. I intentionally bought it in gray and green plaid. There's a thing called Optical Color Mixing, which means that this plaid, at any distance greater than about 50 feet, is a really good dull green. I usually wear brown jeans when doing the work. Faded blue jeans are a pretty neutral color. If I wanted a single, best-overall camouflage, this would be it. From Urban to rich-suburb, to poor-suburb, to rural, you don't ever stand out. You will fail to fit in as a MEMBER of upperclass neighborhoods, but will not fail to look like you belong there to perform some business.

I have two backpacks; one is my BOB and the other is a day-to-day book carrier. The BOB is a high Sierra internal frame backpack... in RED. I asked for it for Christmas, and someone got it for me... in RED. It's hard to say 'thank you' and 'are you f'ing serious?' at the same time. I went with 'Thank you'. I'll live with it until I can find a better replacement. My OTHER backpack, that >I< chose the color for, is a Jansport in good old Olive Drab, with suede brown leather bottom. It is BAD for heavy loads and organization of large numbers of small items, but a good light-use backpack.

Let me give my thoughts on Camo. Around here, you would stand out like someone in hot pink toto if you wore camo. I don't see as much value in 'not be seen at all' as I see in 'not worth the trouble'. Sure, you could say there are lots of instances where being in camo makes you effectively invisible, and in those instances, awesome. However, I'll repeat: The very BEST camouflage fails on occasion. Even in its intended environment, camo can and does fail. If you walk on any paved sidewalk or road, camo is an utter fail. Any urban environment, fail. Or, the vast tracts of harvested cornfield that stretch on to the horizon here in Illinois... fail. Admittedly, there's little to be done to blend in in such an environment, but at least if you're in flannel, jeans, and work boots, you look like you belong in a cornfield.

In SHTF, if you saw someone in flannel, jeans, workboots, and a meh-looking pack walking along or a guy in digi-camo with a super-cooly-fraggin-tacti-maxpe-molle-alice pack and plate carrier... which do you think would draw more attention? Now, I'm not talking about the ravenous hordes here. I'm talking, you're trying to approach another group to do something as absurd as 'communicate' and possibly 'trade'. Even against 'bad people', I'd think camo-man is a more tempting target. It looks like there's more 'meat' there.

(super-cooly-fraggin-tacti-maxpe-molle-alice.... I crack myself up...:) )

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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Philpot » Fri May 18, 2012 7:25 pm

This thread was an incredibly interesting read, but it seems like people keep posting like they have this startling revelation...

"GUYS GUYS NO NO REALLY! You don't get it. The Gray Man ISN'T the same thing all the time!! No no no, hear me out..."

xD I mean, that's kind of the point. The whole idea. You change. You blend. As your environment changes, so do you. It's not like blending into a crowd is a one-size-fits-all thing. Here in good ol' east tunnussee, I could have three guns in my truck window and a buck hanging off my belt in the local high school parking lot and nobody would bat an eye. Do that in Memphis or almost anywhere else further north and you'll get shot. Pretty funny really.

What's crazy is how little it takes to stand out. Simply being aware makes you different. Making eye contact with someone? Almost unheard of! I was in downtown Bristol today and there were people I made eye contact with who I swear looked like a frightened weiner dog. "WTF WHY IS HE LOOKING AT ME!?" I'm not a scary dude by a long shot. I'm short. 5'7" on a good day. But the reactions I get are hilarious sometimes. If you're naturally aware, scanning for trouble, and you look like you can handle yourself, sorry but, you already stick out. Everybody and their dogs can pick you out of a crowd.

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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by ODA 226 » Sat May 19, 2012 10:02 am

The "Gray Man" doesn't exist. Read this thread in it's entirety:

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=83971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Kommander » Sat May 19, 2012 12:38 pm

ODA 226 wrote:The "Gray Man" doesn't exist. Read this thread in it's entirety:

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=83971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course he does, you just can't see him.
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Tater Raider » Sat May 19, 2012 3:34 pm

Kommander wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:The "Gray Man" doesn't exist. Read this thread in it's entirety:

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=83971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course he does, you just can't see him.
See who?

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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Mr.Pliskin » Sat May 19, 2012 6:19 pm

Grey man=Dont look out of place

Everyone around notices you, being grey just means they dismiss you.

Even if you do look out of place, look like you have a purpose to be there.

Dont look like a victim, sholders back with confidence. Grey does no good if scum target you for looking weak.

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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by squinty » Sat May 19, 2012 6:45 pm

Mr.Pliskin wrote:Grey man=Dont look out of place

Everyone around notices you, being grey just means they dismiss you.
And in some circumstances you will not ever be dismissed by people who see you no matter what you look like. In some places, just being alive and able to move = looking out of place. Those are bad circumstances to be in, but those are the kind of circumstances we talk about.
George Orwell wrote:Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by squinty » Sat May 19, 2012 6:57 pm

A funny pair of "Grey Fails" in the opening sequence from "City of God" (basically "Goodfellas" in a Rio de Janeiro slum)

The first character is a chicken who escapes getting barbecued. At 3:20 in the video, you can see the chicken try to "act casual" in hopes of being unnoticed.

The second character - the narrator of the film - looks exactly like he belongs in the City of God, because he was born and raised there. He fits into that neighborhood's milieu perfectly, and has kept his head down and looked inconspicuous as a strategy to avoid attention from both corrupt police and brutal street gangs his whole life. But he winds up in the wrong place at the wrong time, where no amount of blending would help him. Actual film starts at 00:50.

George Orwell wrote:Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by ODA 226 » Sun May 20, 2012 8:55 am

This is why a Strategy of Avoidance" works best.
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by raptor » Sun May 20, 2012 11:55 am

ODA 226 wrote:This is why a Strategy of Avoidance" works best.
That and in the case of the character in "City of God" ducking, crawling and running like hell.

Getting caught in a crossfire results only in red (as in blood); no amount of grey can help here. Your only hope is the "big sky, small bullet" theory works.

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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by snuffsawyer » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:19 am

I don't care how much you want to yiff, it aint worth your life............. LMAO
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Re: The Gray Man: Or How To Be Invisible:

Post by Grey Mann » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:33 pm

snuffsawyer wrote:I don't care how much you want to yiff, it aint worth your life............. LMAO
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