Climate Changes

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

User avatar
Sun Yeti
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:54 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zomblies (no, that's not a typo)

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Sun Yeti » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:08 am

Wow, this thread was a goat rodeo back in the day. We've got all the greatest hits: the climate isn't changing, it's not caused by humans, and it would be too hard/expensive to stop making it worse. Plus some borderline racist remarks for a bonus. But, rather than just snarking, perhaps I should contribute something to the discussion.

Surface melting (which can trickle down to under the glacier) is observed to lubricate the flow of Antarctic glaciers for the first time (previously observed elsewhere, mainly in Greenland, but the Antarctic glaciers are the biggest in the world):
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 111355.htm
As you may or may not be aware, melting sea ice does not raise sea levels, but when land ice flows into the ocean faster it does.

On the other hand, renewables (wind/solar) are now cheaper than fossil fuels in most places, even without subsidies:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsm ... f7a165a6b2

I suspect the age of natural gas peaker plant construction is going to come rapidly to a close, as grid storage (massive lithium-ion batteries) are a cheaper, more responsive way to even out the grid, and they can be built faster with less permitting hassle.

Electric cars are still more expensive up front (although lower total cost of ownership), but give them a few more years to scale up and that will cease to be true.

In summary, my opinion is, 1. the effects of climate change will be faster than expected, and 2. we're switching to clean energy faster than expected.
I find it uniquely frustrating that so many preppers have their heads in the sand about climate change.

But, I've come to realize there's no point in arguing with someone if there's no possible evidence you could present that would actually change their mind.

User avatar
JeeperCreeper
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 2499
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:49 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Twilight... making zombies of our future generations
Location: Yo Momma's House

Re: Climate Changes

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:45 am

I don't know a lot. But I do know, studying the climate is insanely complex.

So finding any good answers has wayyyyy too many variables.... Scope and bias and motivation all included.

Till I find a crystal ball, I just assume everyone is wrong.
They see me trollin', they hatin'.... keyboardin' tryna catch me typin' dirty
Halfapint wrote:There are some exceptions like myself and jeepercreeper.... but we are the forum asshats. We protect our positions with gusto
zero11010 wrote:The girlfriend is a good shot with a 10/22.
Her secondary offense will be nagging.

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 13904
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Stercutus » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:37 am

MPMalloy wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:56 am
HI everyone, MP here. Have you ever noticed how some topics aren't new? Well I have.

:clownshoes:
All I know is that if has anything to do with climate change in it Sun Yeti is there.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

User avatar
Sun Yeti
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:54 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zomblies (no, that's not a typo)

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Sun Yeti » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:12 am

Stercutus wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:37 am
MPMalloy wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:56 am
HI everyone, MP here. Have you ever noticed how some topics aren't new? Well I have.

:clownshoes:
All I know is that if has anything to do with climate change in it Sun Yeti is there.
Lol. Climate change is one of main reasons I prep. I wish we talked about it more - specifically what can we do to prepare for it. I try to restrain myself of grabbing people by the shoulders and yelling in their face about it, but if someone else brings it up, I'm going to join in :)

Btw, so far the models have tended to err on the side of being optimistic. Ice that 15 years ago they predicted would take 50 years to melt is disappearing now instead.
I find it uniquely frustrating that so many preppers have their heads in the sand about climate change.

But, I've come to realize there's no point in arguing with someone if there's no possible evidence you could present that would actually change their mind.

MPMalloy
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 5146
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:48 am

Re: Climate Changes

Post by MPMalloy » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:50 pm

Sun Yeti wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:12 am
Stercutus wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:37 am
MPMalloy wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:56 am
HI everyone, MP here. Have you ever noticed how some topics aren't new? Well I have.

:clownshoes:
All I know is that if has anything to do with climate change in it Sun Yeti is there.
Lol. Climate change is one of main reasons I prep. I wish we talked about it more - specifically what can we do to prepare for it. I try to restrain myself of grabbing people by the shoulders and yelling in their face about it, but if someone else brings it up, I'm going to join in :)

Btw, so far the models have tended to err on the side of being optimistic. Ice that 15 years ago they predicted would take 50 years to melt is disappearing now instead.
I agrre that we need to prepare for it, simply because it is occuring. I am more thn willing to set aside "why", in favor or "Whatall can we do?".

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: Climate Changes

Post by raptor » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:31 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:45 am
I don't know a lot. But I do know, studying the climate is insanely complex.

So finding any good answers has wayyyyy too many variables.... Scope and bias and motivation all included.

Till I find a crystal ball, I just assume everyone is wrong.
+1
Yours is both a truthful and reasonable answer and approach.

Too many people assume they are experts or "knowledgable" when in fact they tend to substitute opinion for fact.



The subject has sold many books in my lifetime and will likely be a source of revenue for decades to come.



Finally I would note that the thread is over 15 years old.

I do this for 2 reasons:

1.) 15 years ago many of the same issues that are espoused today as "imminent" were espoused "imminent" then.

2.) The rules in place in 2004 were different from today.
As such I would note that any future posts to this thread will be moderated based upon today's rules and not those in place 15 years ago.


Thank you.

User avatar
flybynight
* * * * *
Posts: 3261
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:30 am

Re: Climate Changes

Post by flybynight » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:31 pm

Sun Yeti wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:08 am
Wow, this thread was a goat rodeo back in the day. We've got all the greatest hits: the climate isn't changing, it's not caused by humans, and it would be too hard/expensive to stop making it worse. Plus some borderline racist remarks for a bonus. But, rather than just snarking, perhaps I should contribute something to the discussion.

Surface melting (which can trickle down to under the glacier) is observed to lubricate the flow of Antarctic glaciers for the first time (previously observed elsewhere, mainly in Greenland, but the Antarctic glaciers are the biggest in the world):
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 111355.htm
As you may or may not be aware, melting sea ice does not raise sea levels, but when land ice flows into the ocean faster it does.

On the other hand, renewables (wind/solar) are now cheaper than fossil fuels in most places, even without subsidies:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsm ... f7a165a6b2

I suspect the age of natural gas peaker plant construction is going to come rapidly to a close, as grid storage (massive lithium-ion batteries) are a cheaper, more responsive way to even out the grid, and they can be built faster with less permitting hassle.

Electric cars are still more expensive up front (although lower total cost of ownership), but give them a few more years to scale up and that will cease to be true. .

In summary, my opinion is, 1. the effects of climate change will be faster than expected, and 2. we're switching to clean energy faster than expected.
the climate isn't changing, it's not caused by humans, and it would be too hard/expensive to stop making it worse. Why do you always equate goats with problems? You goat discriminator you. I got nothing except Long after humans are gone, the sun will still rise and some form of life will still greet the new day
Not all those who wander are lost

John Titor was right

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 13904
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Stercutus » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:11 pm

In summary, my opinion is, 1. the effects of climate change will be faster than expected, and 2. we're switching to clean energy faster than expected.
I think you may have fallen in to an echo chamber and are trapped there.

Climate change is definitely happening slower than expected. There is an entire graveyard of fallen predictions of what was already supposed to have happened and has not.

The switch to clean energy is happening slower than I expected anyway. The Federal Government seriously impeded the switch to wind power in Texas back in the 2000s. They are catching up now but I'd say we are about ten years behind.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: Climate Changes

Post by raptor » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:18 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:11 pm

The switch to clean energy is happening slower than I expected anyway. The Federal Government seriously impeded the switch to wind power in Texas back in the 2000s. They are catching up now but I'd say we are about ten years behind.


This is likely why.

Without Tax credits, solar power still does not generate electrifying returns (sorry bad pun).

In LA my power costs about $0.10 to $0.12 per KWH.

The average cost for a solar panel installed before tax rebates (there is likely a lot of site specific variation) but according to several sites it ranges from $2.99 per KWH to$2.91Kwh .

So doing the math @ $0.12 per KwH and a cost of $2.99 per Kwh without tax subsidies a KWH produce by a solar panel in my area would take about 24.9 years to breakeven.

Obviously in states like HI where power cost can exceed $0.30 per Kwh the return especially when artificial benefits like subsidies are included, the equation makes more sense economically.
Tax rebates vary widely by state and limits and will also change the numbers. That said even at $.30 per KWH cost the installed cost has to be net $1.50 per kwh to a minimal 20% return on risk capital.

YMMV

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 13904
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Stercutus » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:51 pm

This is likely why.
Yeah solar.. but wind power OTOH, easily one of the cheapest ways to generate electricity. The problem was getting the energy to market.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: Climate Changes

Post by raptor » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:31 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:51 pm
This is likely why.
Yeah solar.. but wind power OTOH, easily one of the cheapest ways to generate electricity. The problem was getting the energy to market.
Wind should be able to produce energy at a lower cost than solar if for no other reason than solar is inherently limited to daylight hours. You can amortize your initial cost over more Kwh by a factor of x2 since solar does not work at lest 50% of a 24 hour day. I have seen a claim of $0.02 per kwh but this was after a tax credit of $0.026 per kwh. That seems to put the unsubsidized price per kwh much lower than solar but not lower than NG and coal fired steam generating plants when the subsidy is removed in 2020.

That said if you cannot get the power (or any product for that matter) to market your production cost is not relevant.

So yes transmission costs are a relevant cost component.

User avatar
Halfapint
* * * * *
Posts: 3971
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:41 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: all?
Location: Central Cascadia

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Halfapint » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:58 am

Sun Yeti wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:12 am
Stercutus wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:37 am
MPMalloy wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:56 am
HI everyone, MP here. Have you ever noticed how some topics aren't new? Well I have.

:clownshoes:
All I know is that if has anything to do with climate change in it Sun Yeti is there.
Lol. Climate change is one of main reasons I prep. I wish we talked about it more - specifically what can we do to prepare for it. I try to restrain myself of grabbing people by the shoulders and yelling in their face about it, but if someone else brings it up, I'm going to join in :)

Btw, so far the models have tended to err on the side of being optimistic. Ice that 15 years ago they predicted would take 50 years to melt is disappearing now instead.
Agreed!!!. The place I live is predicted to be one of the best places to live come the inevitable climate change. Besides earthquakes, climate change is one of the biggest reason I prep.

I love going to Juneau, 15 years ago the mendenhall glacier was something like 50’ further into the bay, and was much thicker. Now it’s a shadow of itself. Mt Raininer lost one of its glaciers this year, though some snow still sits there. Glacier national park is loosing its glaciers at record pace. None is that is good news for anyone. Not to mention aquifers not being replenished as fast as we are depleting them. So less surface water being held by glaciers is going to be a lot less water during peak dry time in the summer. Water is going to get a lot more scarce.

Luckily I am where I am and I can work to make our region better for the coming climate collapse.
JeeperCreeper wrote:I like huge dicks, Halfapint, so you are OK in my book.... hahaha
Spazzy wrote:Tell ya what... If Zombies attack and the world ends I'll hook tandem toddlers to a plow if it means I'll be able to eat...

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 13904
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Stercutus » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:31 am

raptor wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:31 pm
Stercutus wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:51 pm
This is likely why.
Yeah solar.. but wind power OTOH, easily one of the cheapest ways to generate electricity. The problem was getting the energy to market.
Wind should be able to produce energy at a lower cost than solar if for no other reason than solar is inherently limited to daylight hours. You can amortize your initial cost over more Kwh by a factor of x2 since solar does not work at lest 50% of a 24 hour day. I have seen a claim of $0.02 per kwh but this was after a tax credit of $0.026 per kwh. That seems to put the unsubsidized price per kwh much lower than solar but not lower than NG and coal fired steam generating plants when the subsidy is removed in 2020.

That said if you cannot get the power (or any product for that matter) to market your production cost is not relevant.

So yes transmission costs are a relevant cost component.
Some estimates put the coal subsidies higher than the wind subsides with an overall net kwh cost for coal at near double that of wind. Either way, other than some minor annoyances from noise wind is very benign and non-polluting.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: Climate Changes

Post by raptor » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:10 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:31 am

Some estimates put the coal subsidies higher than the wind subsides with an overall net kwh cost for coal at near double that of wind. Either way, other than some minor annoyances from noise wind is very benign and non-polluting.
I used an Ampaire wind generator on a boat I used for an extended cruise. It worked very well and supplied a fair amount of power consistently. I got used to the noise and in fact used the noise in lieu of a broken anemometer to judge when it was time to reef the main sail. The solar panels on the other hand were a waste of deck space.

The nice thing about the Ampaire was that as long as there was 10 knots+ of wind it produced power 24/7. The solar panels were shadowed by the sails, the sun awning and made a nice pooping platform for the sea birds. The wind was rarely below 10 knots and when it was the engine or generator was operating.




As for coal it depends upon the definition of subsidy. Some uninformed people claim depreciation is a subsidy. Others also throw in health care estimates into the equation which may or may not be documentable and then throw them out as a savings for alternative sources if it suits their definition.

The material coal based subsidies (Neither of which are anything useful IMO)that I am aware of are the clean coal subsidy set up in 2004 and the carbon sequestration subsidy set up in 2008.

Both are also being phased out.

This is from the GAO on what they deem to be subsidies:
Image

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: Climate Changes

Post by raptor » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:30 pm

Since this is a necro thread 15 years old and hence not current and there is already "ZMOG the climate is going to kill us by 2050" thread in DICE I am going to move this topic to the CP&P thread.

MPMalloy
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 5146
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:48 am

Re: Climate Changes

Post by MPMalloy » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:25 am


RoneKiln
* * *
Posts: 787
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Climate Changes

Post by RoneKiln » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:58 am

When you add up the effects of soil degradation, deforestation, draining of aquifers, heat island effect, and the terrifying impacts of ocean acidification due to CO2 increases; we don't need to have much of an impact on the climate to have catastrophic results.

The world has repeatedly had periods of far higher temperatures, far lower temperatures, for more CO2, and far less CO2. The world didn't end. But the results of these changes would certainly shatter modern civilization.

The world doesn't have to end to suck. History is full of civilizations that toppled due to environmental damage they directly caused, or fairly minor climate changes they likely didn't cause.

Many of the "clean" energy moves are not as clean as people think. Building a new electric car has far more carbon footprint than continuing to drive an already manufactured gas powered car for years more. Our consumerist culture is far more damaging than where the energy comes from.
"Seriously the most dangerous thing you are likely to do is to put salt on a Big Mac right before you eat it and to climb into your car."
--Raptor

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: Climate Changes

Post by raptor » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:22 am

RoneKiln wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:58 am
The world has repeatedly had periods of far higher temperatures, far lower temperatures, for more CO2, and far less CO2. The world didn't end. But the results of these changes would certainly shatter modern civilization.

The world doesn't have to end to suck. History is full of civilizations that toppled due to environmental damage they directly caused, or fairly minor climate changes they likely didn't cause.

Many of the "clean" energy moves are not as clean as people think. Building a new electric car has far more carbon footprint than continuing to drive an already manufactured gas powered car for years more. Our consumerist culture is far more damaging than where the energy comes from.
QFT
1. The world has repeatedly had periods of far higher temperatures, far lower temperatures, for more CO2, and far less CO2.

Naturally occuring change in climate has occurred since the earth formed ~ 4 to 6 billion years ago. The inhabitants at the time were always subject to these changes.

2. Our consumerist culture is far more damaging than where the energy comes from.

In my lifetime I have seen our world culture go from durable goods to a throw away society. Glass jars became plastic which then became single serving packs. Ceramic and glass reusable cups became plastic take away cups & lids which are then touted as using less plastic. Electronics are traded every 18 months and then thrown away.
The amount of packaging that I receive every day is to me amazing.

That said man made pollution is frequently thrown in with climate change but that is really a whole different subject.

MPMalloy
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 5146
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:48 am

Re: Climate Changes

Post by MPMalloy » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:43 pm

raptor wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:22 am
RoneKiln wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:58 am
The world has repeatedly had periods of far higher temperatures, far lower temperatures, for more CO2, and far less CO2. The world didn't end. But the results of these changes would certainly shatter modern civilization.

The world doesn't have to end to suck. History is full of civilizations that toppled due to environmental damage they directly caused, or fairly minor climate changes they likely didn't cause.

Many of the "clean" energy moves are not as clean as people think. Building a new electric car has far more carbon footprint than continuing to drive an already manufactured gas powered car for years more. Our consumerist culture is far more damaging than where the energy comes from.
QFT
1. The world has repeatedly had periods of far higher temperatures, far lower temperatures, for more CO2, and far less CO2.

Naturally occuring change in climate has occurred since the earth formed ~ 4 to 6 billion years ago. The inhabitants at the time were always subject to these changes.

2. Our consumerist culture is far more damaging than where the energy comes from.

In my lifetime I have seen our world culture go from durable goods to a throw away society. Glass jars became plastic which then became single serving packs. Ceramic and glass reusable cups became plastic take away cups & lids which are then touted as using less plastic. Electronics are traded every 18 months and then thrown away.
The amount of packaging that I receive every day is to me amazing.

That said man made pollution is frequently thrown in with climate change but that is really a whole different subject.
Different subject, yes. Connected: Maybe yes, maybe no; it depends.

(Which sounds like cop-out Writ large, but it's not.).

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 13904
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Stercutus » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:27 pm

In my mind pollution and loss of habitat due to encroachment are the two biggest problems facing the planet today. In my Current Mass Extinction Event thread the source materials point out that man has taken everything from the planet that he can get his hands on much to the detriment of every other living species. Not only was Darwin right but we are seeing it in real time. It doesn't take much to extrapolate what the future will look like, climate change or not.

We are not just living in the midst of a mass extinction event, we are the direct cause of it. The most fascinating part about that is that while we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are the cause of it most people don't care. We squabble over mundane issues and most people can't see beyond their noses to focus on things that really matter.

The other day I did a little experiment. On the way back from the grocery store a jar of pasta sauce came unstowed. When I opened the back door of the truck it rolled right out and broke open on the concrete driveway. I put the groceries up and then went back to deal with the mess.

While I was picking up the glass I noticed that ants were descending upon the sauce. This was quite a score for them so instead of washing it up with the hose I let them work it out. I went back out later that night with the flashlight and tens of thousands were working on the 30 ounces of Alfredo Sauce and had actually made major inroads. By morning it was all gone the only thing left was a faint white residue and the ants were working on that.

Nature wastes nothing. Mankind perversely goes out of it's way to stop nature from taking it's course even when there is no logical reason to do so. Mankind has dramatically interrupted the natural cycle with a self pleasuring vision of naval gazing self importance that no other species could ever hope to challenge.

While I posture on my soapbox and jabber on like the Lorax I am just as guilty as anyone. I am powerless to stop the wealthy from dumping billions of tons of trash in to the sea or pumping billions of tons of pollutants in to the sky. Because I am powerless I do nothing instead.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: Climate Changes

Post by raptor » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:41 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:27 pm

I am powerless to stop the wealthy from dumping billions of tons of trash in to the sea or pumping billions of tons of pollutants in to the sky. Because I am powerless I do nothing instead.
It ain't the rich. They get fined and can go to jail for dumping waste in an unapproved maner.

The .gov especially local .govs are responsible for dumping a lot of waste (untreated sewerage) and municipal waste. They do it regularly and generally with few consequences.

https://www.thestar.com/vancouver/2018/ ... untry.html
https://www.foxnews.com/us/3-million-ga ... h-closures
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblo ... on-gallons

One of the key problems with using the MS river for potable water in NOLA is the municipal sewerage dumped into it upstream. This of course flows into the GOM and the oil patch gets blamed for the dead zones that results from it. The organic matter in the "runoff" is frequently the sewerage from a municipalities.

https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/37 ... t-failure/
http://www.bettendorf.com/?q=content/du ... quantities

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 13904
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Stercutus » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:56 pm

I was born on a day, but it wasn't yesterday, The rich run the government at all levels, maybe different levels of rich but still rich relatively. Doesn't matter who is in office or what party they claim they represent. Once a politician has been in the office for a while they want to be rich too. Doesn't matter how they got there or what they said they were going to do when they did get there. The minute they set foot in office the real compromise begins.

You want an example about Sewer Systems? Google the Jefferson County Alabama sewer system debacle for a perfect example of why things are the way they are. The only difference is that they got caught.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: Climate Changes

Post by raptor » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:45 pm

The Jefferson County debacle is indeed well known far and wide.

They are a .gov entity.

The folks who went to jail for this fiasco did so for corrution not for discharging untreated sewerage in violation of the Clean Water Act.

Kinda proves my point.

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 13904
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: Climate Changes

Post by Stercutus » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:14 am

What it shows to me is that the rich will pay lots of money to politicians as an investment in the freedom to commit crimes with the belief that they will suffer no repercussions. Whether it is looting the county treasury or polluting the environment to save a few dollars.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

Post Reply

Return to “Contingency Planning & Preparation”