Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

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Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by BullOnParade » Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:09 pm

I know I've put some thought into this in the past, we may have discussed it somewhere in the forums already. But the current "AR15 For Home Defense" thread has me revisiting the idea.

1) If you were building from scratch, which features would you design into the construction to be of benefit to defend a building? Medieval construction was known to implement spiral staircases in a specific orientation to help give right-handed swordsmen an advantage. Could such strategy be implemented with a "slicing the pie" technique of house clearing? Clockwise/up being defensively superior to counterclockwise/up for right-handers (assuming you're defending the high ground)

2) Besides knowledge of the design, are there features or designs you could implement to help you clear said property if you had to ensure it was free of threats? Ideally these same features couldn't be used against you in the event you're defending said structure. Obviously, an intricate security system could provide information of a person's location. Elimination of blind spots or basic motion sensor lights could be useful when defending against home invaders (or clearing a BOL on arrival).

3) Landscaping features you would design or avoid for property defense? I know this specific topic has come up, but can't remember terms to search. Something about gravel outside windows and doors, or entire structural perimeter to make noise if anyone is creeping around.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by 00dlez » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:10 pm

Never put much thought into it, and while I respect the medieval design...

Image

Firearms are the modern apex, and IF your are planning "the stand" you should have something that leans into that. Thinking WWII bunkers, a long hallway ending in a steel door with a firing port or 2 is attainable and reasonable for an individual to incorporate into most structures - pre planned or otherwise.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:38 pm

I think spiral staircase is a nightmare from a tactical standpoint. Limited space, and difficult to get the "jump" on bad guys like a traditional perpendicular staircase.

I agree that lights are gonna be key. Especially outward facing floods.

But for me, I would want to it to look normal. If it looks like a fortress, anyone with I'll intent would treat it as such (better plans, better weapons, bigger force). I'd want a "gray man" home for most situations.

Ideally, reinforced internal cement. 360 visibility. Reinforced windows and doors.

If I wanted a lookout tower, I'd think old Victorian homes with the spire-like rooms. Blend in and be gorgeous.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by tom q vaxy » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:35 am

I believe spiral staircases were defensively designed to turn clockwise on the assent. most people are right handed, and this would put the shield towards the wall and sword to the rail = undefended. check out : https://www.youtube.com/user/shadmbrooks - just be ready for plenty of medieval hijinks!

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by CrossCut » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:15 am

If building new, I'd recommend looking at an insulated concrete form home. Many advantages over stick or brick homes; typically better insulation, ballistic and wind/water protection, less air infiltration, and radiation protection just to name a few. Mentioned in another thread I built our two story ICF home with a switchback staircase, the steel entry door is on a small landing between the interior floors which allows us to cover the door from both the upper and lower levels. The outside staircase is straight and narrow with minimal space at the top, if more than one person wants in they have to get in a single file line :)

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by Stercutus » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:53 am

You didn't mention budget so...

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by MacWa77ace » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:22 am

Put most of the budget into keeping people out. Earthen works outside walls, limited entry points under controlled defenses. Nuke proof doors. rocket proof windows.

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I also like trap doors.

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:11 am

MacWa77ace wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:22 am
Put most of the budget into keeping people out. Earthen works outside walls, limited entry points under controlled defenses. Nuke proof doors. rocket proof windows.

Image & Image
Right here. Both of these.

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by Zed Hunter » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:34 am

A hobbit home.

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:40 am

Zed Hunter wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:34 am
A hobbit home.
So, a nice, round door?

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by Horatio_Tyllis » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 pm

Exterior block "garden" walls with rebar and filled with mortar, with or without a double wall and an 8" dirt infill depending on if you want to stop 50 cals. :p Can even get the pretty architectural block to keep it looking nice.

Also the Picton route that allowed him to use a tunnel to flank intruders either in front or behind the home. It was super effective.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by Stercutus » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:24 pm

You are going to need to build somewhere without building codes if you are going the Hobbit route.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by flybynight » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:14 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:24 pm
You are going to need to build somewhere without building codes if you are going the Hobbit route.
Why is that? I've seen lot's of underground homes similar to those in Kansas.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by woodsghost » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:38 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:22 am

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:00 pm

Zed Hunter wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:34 am
A hobbit home.

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by flybynight » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:28 pm

Looked through Zillow to prove I wasn't just talking through my hat about underground homes.. But of course Zillow won't show me the homes I saw just a few weeks ago. ( Don't know if they sold or it just won't show me. Zillow is like that)
But did find two berm homes close to underground

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1225 ... 5518_zpid/?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2133 ... 5539_zpid/


Just not that long ago saw a home on a small acreage in a small town in north central KS that only the front door , a few windows and front wall showed. Everything else was under ground. Grass roof.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by boskone » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:32 pm

Skipping being bulletproof, DeviantOllam has a lot of good pentesting videos that would offer useful info for general intrusion resistance. I got a bit interested when there were some burglaries and peepers (potentially but not necessarily related) in the area.

A couple examples of fairly easy ways to shore up a door are multipoint mortise locks, and if there are exposed hinges some sort of hinge security feature (security pins, hinges with build-in studs, etc) in a metal-sheated door, and a lip around the door to help prevent bypassing with a wire.

For windows, I'm actually kinda curious about plexiglass. Even non-bulletproof plex would be highly intruder-resistant, since the stuff's hard to break. Maybe dual-paned windows with glass outside and plex inside?

For physical security, to me it'll depend on what style house I build. I'm inclined toward ICF, preferably bermed on at least the south and west sides for energy efficiency, but since I forsee a barndominium in my future that may not be practical.

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by Stercutus » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:35 am

flybynight wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:14 pm
Stercutus wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:24 pm
You are going to need to build somewhere without building codes if you are going the Hobbit route.
Why is that? I've seen lot's of underground homes similar to those in Kansas.
They probably didn't have building codes either. Certain things (like windows in bedrooms) are required that are difficult to place in an underground home.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by darmstrong » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:35 am

boskone wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:32 pm
Skipping being bulletproof, DeviantOllam has a lot of good pentesting videos that would offer useful info for general intrusion resistance. I got a bit interested when there were some burglaries and peepers (potentially but not necessarily related) in the area.
The first step in securing a house generally requires a little bit of thought and a small amount of money. It's not a complete overhaul of every door and window. As with almost all securing steps, it just depends on the threat model. In my work, security is super important and I regularly remind my boss that all security does is slows a person down and increase their work. We're probably not stopping a backhoe from breaking a wall to enter.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by CrossCut » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:12 am

darmstrong wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:35 am
The first step in securing a house generally requires a little bit of thought and a small amount of money. It's not a complete overhaul of every door and window. As with almost all securing steps, it just depends on the threat model. In my work, security is super important and I regularly remind my boss that all security does is slows a person down and increase their work. We're probably not stopping a backhoe from breaking a wall to enter.
Maybe not keeping out heavy equipment for long, but ICF is SUV proof. https://www.quadlock.com/insulating-con ... _crash.htm

Plus small arms and explosives:

https://youtu.be/Jo8OuQUcpGo

https://youtu.be/u_XoB9diHvU

https://www.quadlock.com/insulated-conc ... t_test.htm

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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:15 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:35 am
flybynight wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:14 pm
Stercutus wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:24 pm
You are going to need to build somewhere without building codes if you are going the Hobbit route.
Why is that? I've seen lot's of underground homes similar to those in Kansas.
They probably didn't have building codes either. Certain things (like windows in bedrooms) are required that are difficult to place in an underground home.
In my region, underground homes are very easy to get permits for if you have a structural engineer involved. The issue in my area far more complex than the windows is water intrusion (windows are actually pretty simple). But there are very standardized details for dealing with drainage now. The primary need for a structural engineer is that soils can differ every 20 ft in certain areas. So the permitting agencies want a professional to confirm the structural elements are appropriate for the type of soils/hydrology on that specific lot.

Basements are standard things. Vegetated roofs are becoming more common. An underground house is really just a combination of a basement with a vegetated roof.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by darmstrong » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:11 pm

CrossCut wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:12 am
Maybe not keeping out heavy equipment for long, but ICF is SUV proof. https://www.quadlock.com/insulating-con ... _crash.htm

Plus small arms and explosives:

https://youtu.be/Jo8OuQUcpGo

https://youtu.be/u_XoB9diHvU

https://www.quadlock.com/insulated-conc ... t_test.htm
The ICF might stop all of that, but you still have doors and windows and then of course cost considerations. You're only as good as your weakest link. If you build in Somalia, by all means ICFs might be the best consideration for you. For the rest of us, the threat model is somewhere between that and a crappy kwikset on a cheap exterior door. Which is why I think taking the little steps on the home you have to make it more difficult than your neighbors is probably the best next steps.

Of course, professional penetration testers demonstrate that even the best physical security can have flaws. You just have to be creative enough.

https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... comments=1
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by Stercutus » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:43 am

If you want to shift gears from stopping the casual burglar (locked ingress routes, dog, alarm system) to stopping the ravening hordes of undead you are going to have to either invest some serious money in upgrades or employ guards or both. Right now the labor market does not make guards cost effective.

Several dogs however might make a bit of difference. I do know a guy who is fairly well off as a lawyer and he picks up dogs at the shelter and trains them himself as guard dogs. Dogs will be killed by home invaders but they do give you time to prepare. Large dogs are also notoriously hard to kill.
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Re: Designing a Structure for a Defensive Stand

Post by MPMalloy » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:15 am

Stercutus wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:43 am
If you want to shift gears from stopping the casual burglar (locked ingress routes, dog, alarm system) to stopping the ravening hordes of undead you are going to have to either invest some serious money in upgrades or employ guards or both. Right now the labor market does not make guards cost effective.

Several dogs however might make a bit of difference. I do know a guy who is fairly well off as a lawyer and he picks up dogs at the shelter and trains them himself as guard dogs. Dogs will be killed by home invaders but they do give you time to prepare. Large dogs are also notoriously hard to kill.
What sort of breeds & costs would someone be looking at for guard dogs?

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