Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

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Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by woodsghost » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:12 pm

I am taking on the security for my church. Simply put, no one else is willing or interested and I"m on the leadership team, I brought it up, and it is now my baby to raise and run with.

My real basic question is: what questions should I be asking right now? What information should I be learning? What should I be looking up? How do I get educated in all this?

My second question is: what resources do I need? I know our insurance will talk with us about any specifics that they need, but is there anything I should be aware of ahead of time? Are there things I can do to make our insurance company more comfortable with things? Cuz if they want to raise rates, that will put a real damper on things.

Ok, here is the vision I have and what we want to put together.

We are breaking this down into two categories: medical response and violence response.

For medical response I have myself and one other volunteer who is a former Navy Corpsman.

For violence response I have myself and one current active police officer.

Congregation size is 60-70 people. The building is quite large as we used to have more people and we also use the building to distribute food to the low income surrounding community. This food distribution is done weekly. We typically serve 70-130 people, depending on the time of the month and the seasonal temperatures.

The primary issues will likely be medical. If a member of the congregation has a medical issue or if one of our clients has a medical issue we want to be able to respond. One recent incident was when one of the little boys was running around and hit something, putting his teeth through his lip. But we serve a lot of addicts and people with generally poor health through our food distribution, so I know we risk other medical issues popping up.

Violence has some potential to be an issue. To date, issues of a more confrontational nature have been lone individuals with mental issues making a verbal scene. So far they have been dealt with through talking to the individuals and calming them down. Of course, people who the State mental health system consider at risk of violence are not usually released into the community. Risk of violence should be low, but is never "0%." My concern is people on different substances which may not be acting rationally. So far that has not been something we actually experience, but that is my concern. There is also the potential for interpersonal violence between members of the community during our food distribution times, and some possibility of violence between staff and clients. We also had one volunteer/staff member who has mental issues and was prone to irate outbursts. He has been asked not to return.

Community makeup is very diverse. Russian, Ukrainian, Syrian, Iranian, Kurdish, Iraqi, and various Spanish speaking groups. Some Vietnamese. Oh, and "American." I don't know if any of this matters.

My plan is to equip medical response volunteers with certification/re-certification in CPR and basic first aid. However, we don't have cash to do this, do you think we could write off any cost on taxes or qualify for some sort of "workforce continuing education" kind of thing? I also plan to write up basic response plans to general medical emergencies. Something like "the closet responder renders first aid, the other one dials 911 and clears a path for entry and assists in any way possible." Something very basic but written and reviewed every 4 months so we stay current and aware.

For violence response, I am going to be working with our active LEO, but I'm wondering if security training could be written off taxes? Or do I simply need to get that out of pocket?

The first draft of ideas my LEO partner and I bounced around are to have someone be near the main entrance to "greet" anyone coming in, and watch the bathrooms and sorta make sure any children not accompanied by adults are secure. I am not sure yet how many of the extra entrances we can lock before we might peeve the fire marshal. Any other ideas?

I"ll also try to talk to the security people at some other churches I work with and attend, and some other LEO/retired friends of mine.

So I think it is pretty obvious I'm just in the beginning stages of putting this boat out to sea. I'm really looking for how to get off the ground with this and what issues I might face. Any advice or thoughts are welcome. Links to articles you all think are helpful would also be awesome. I'm a little leery of just googling all this because of the amount of garbage I see on subjects I am educated on. I am worried about wading into the pit of the internet with a subject I am a lot less educated on.

PMs are welcome.

Thanks!
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by The Twizzler » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:44 pm

As far as taxes go I am not an accountant but churches are tax free so I don't think you can deduct from services rendered to them, however, I believe you can deduct things you buy for an official church function or be exempt from most taxes. An example, in my state we have sales tax on food, unless it is for an official church function so if you buy medical equipment for the church you don't pay tax on it. Also you didn't mention how many floors or exits there are. Honestly I wouldn't worry that much about a Dylan Roof style attack and more about disturbances both mental and physical experienced by those there. My plan would be to avoid panic inside the church. Recite Patrick Swayze's maxim from Roadhouse
"Take it outside, somebody causes problems you nicely ask them to go outside.
What if they don't want to leave?
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by raptor » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:42 pm

Ok there some issues you do need to address and a lot depends upon your state laws.

First thing is liability insurance coverage. Does the church have liability coverage and does it cover you. If you are an employee (paid or volunteer) the church may have coverage but you may or may not. If you are acting as an individual, the church has less to worry about but you have lot more potential liability. This is why state law matters, In some states "Good Samaritans" are protected when rendering first aid, in other states they are not. In some states you can stand your ground and self defense is a protected right. In other states that is not the case. I would check first with the church's insurance agent and ask about the extent of coverage and whether or not you are covered by the workman's compensation and liability policy. If you are lawfully carrying a CCW make damn sure that the liability covers armed security AND the security guards (i.e. you). In fact you may even want to buy CCW liability coverage for yourself. It is easy to obtain and will cost less than speaking to an attorney for 2 hours.

I honestly am less worried about the liability from the first aid aspect than the liability of dealing with violent people. In this situation you COULD also face criminal charges if you act unlawfully. I am sure the LEO can help there but that is something you two need to discuss. What will you do and what can you lawfully do or not do. Do you simply stand as a barrier or do you actively restrain the person. The laws of your state will have to guide you, that and the insurance coverage language.

I also strongly suggest a good and comprehensive CCTV system that covers as much of the public area and exterior as possible. It is good CYA insurance. The other less obvious thing is kids are clearly present. You need rules for your group about being alone with the kids. Not that anyone would do anything to them but that would not prevent them from making false claims. The CCTV can provide CYA there, but you also need to implement the "2 adult rule". Simply put if kids are present there shall always be at least a minimum of 2 adults visible to each other. No exceptions. 2 adults at all times.

Since you are an ex-corpsman you need no advice from me on medical gear. I can add nothing more there.

What it does sound like though is that the church and your cadre of volunteers/employees/members/ushers need a set of SOPs and some recurring training so that they can act as a team and know what to do if something happens. In that SOPhave a plan for what to do when you call 911. A church can be a big area you should include in your plans dispatching a person to flag down the ambulance (or LEO) and direct them to the area of need. Make sure that runner has a cell phone so you can communicate with them and vice versa.

I am not saying take them out and drill them but do have some recurring training and even a pre-worship 5 minute safety briefing/discussion. In effect a tailgate safety meeting.

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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by woodsghost » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:37 am

There is a CCTV system, both externally and internally. It helped reduce our insurance rates.

I am not an ex-corpsman. My friend was. I was unclear.

I have simply been through several rounds of Lifeguard training, plus college and work courses on first aid and CPR.
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by JayceSlayn » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:07 am

Some good points above. A lot of things that I wouldn't necessarily know to inquire about myself, but the fact that you are asking about the unknowns of coordinating this operation I think shows that you will run it admirably.

The "two adults present" rule applying to children also applies to females in the case of EMS work, and it is probably a good rule to apply to just about anyone, really. More CYA stuff.

Though I suspect in the case of any significant incident that LE or EMS will be along shortly to help you sort it out, and they will also be filing documentation, I'd suggest your team write an after action report with the details fresh in your minds, dating it, and filing it away in the case anything comes of it later. It will be more reliable and trustworthy than your memory a few months from then.

Also take note that many Good Samaritan laws may only cover very basic aid universally, and then if you are professionally trained you will be held to the standards of care within the scope of your training. I.e. if you don't work as someone who is trained to intubate people, don't expect that the law will cover you for attempting it. While my personal, anecdotal experience seems to show that it is quite rare for anyone to be prosecuted for attempting to render aid, it isn't entirely unheard of, sadly.
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:25 pm

JayceSlayn wrote: The "two adults present" rule applying to children also applies to females in the case of EMS work, and it is probably a good rule to apply to just about anyone, really. More CYA stuff.
Good point I had not considered that.

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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by drop bear » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:13 pm

ok. the outright magical art of dragging someone can be broken down pretty simply. Get three guys. have one guy secure an arm each and have the third guy either produce enough mass to force movement. Or just be available to help if something goes a bit silly.

What this does is it denies the person use of his hands. So he cant punch kick stab people. While not unscrewing anybodies head in the process.

So if you have that process down you can be mostly safe and professional in most conflicts.

So for security. You work on that principle. See something strange. Make sure two other guys are available then go deal with it.

If you see somone else dealing with something then you need to have a system that sets up two more guys to help.

Apply this to things like communications. So if your three guys are out of earshot. Then it is one guy. So fix that. Get radios or torches or whistles. Doesn't matter.

Then you can do all sorts of cool security stuff around that. But that, i think is your core.

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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by taipan821 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:01 am

with regards to
JayceSlayn wrote: Also take note that many Good Samaritan laws may only cover very basic aid universally, and then if you are professionally trained you will be held to the standards of care within the scope of your training. I.e. if you don't work as someone who is trained to intubate people, don't expect that the law will cover you for attempting it. While my personal, anecdotal experience seems to show that it is quite rare for anyone to be prosecuted for attempting to render aid, it isn't entirely unheard of, sadly.
Add on to JayceSlayn
- Write everything down, if you have gopros use them for security purposes (record conversations)
- +1 for sticking to first aid only, no meds. regardless of your qualification (unless doctor, that falls under different laws) you do not have the authorisation to conduct the procedure, therefore you are not covered.

With regards to drop bear, have a phone for starters, maybe get some cheap phones on a cheap plan so you aren't using your own supplies (could be counted as church costs, tax) Ideally have roughly 50/50 male/female so you can adapt for various situations.

with regards to medical gear, have two first aid kits, one being fixed in say, the kitchen and is used for minor injuries, and a portable one more for trauma/medical cases where a response team is needed. see if the church can get an AED and get trained in advanced resus
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by MacAttack » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:19 pm

Calling a few nice volunteers Ushers instead of medical or security personnel might get a few more volunteers.

You can then just train them later in CPR after they are used to being in a position of semi responsibility.


Most people do not volunteer because of the responsibility involved. Reduce the perceived responsibility and slowly add it on over the next year.
Escorting the older parishioners to their seats will give the eligible younger people a chance to meet the other eligible young people.
The ushers can then be in charge of handling the donations.
Then start asking them to volunteer for the food give away. Just as escorts and "crowd" control.

After you get a trusted team of 4 people or so get them CPR training from the Red Cross on a BBQ at the church day.

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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:21 pm

Churches are often the Chartering Organizations of Boy Scout troops. If your church does not charter a Boy Scout troop, inquire with your neighboring houses of worship. They can be a great source of talent and labor. For example a Scout in the troop I work with was able to procure a portable defibrillator as well as arrange training at no cost for the life guard staff of a community pool. Now, the life guards can jump start a victim, not just give them CPR.
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by Drop Dead Zed » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:22 pm

http://www.carlchinn.com/

Church security research and statistics.

There is a lot that can be talked about here, really too much for this venue. My strongest piece of advice is; make sure you have buy in from the senior pastor/board. Implementing comprehensive church security requires changes to the way things are done and most ministry teams will resist it, in my experience. You will need the pastor's backing for those changes.
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by ManInBlack316 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:47 pm

There is a church local to me that actually currently has a security team, with some of them being armed. I'll PM you their information. Maybe they'll have some information they can share since they already have this set up in the church.

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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by Stercutus » Mon May 15, 2017 11:55 am

Churches in my area mostly hire off duty police when they want security. This makes things quite easy for $100 a week or so.

Just hiring one gets you a much faster (and better) response as the officer can call more units or an ambulance to the church much faster with her radio then you can through 911.
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by woodsghost » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:06 pm

[YouTube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5NzuGSkL2E
[/YouTube]

Some good advice for church security. And since most people here probably don't attend churchs, I think this has useful info for those who attend large public gatherings and carry concealed.

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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by RoneKiln » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:54 pm

So how's it going two years in?
raptor wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:42 pm
If you are lawfully carrying a CCW make damn sure that the liability covers armed security AND the security guards (i.e. you). In fact you may even want to buy CCW liability coverage for yourself. It is easy to obtain and will cost less than speaking to an attorney for 2 hours.
In my region, the state attorney general is gunning for ccw insurance, claiming it's illegal. Cause he assumes anything involving a gun would be a crime, and insuring people for committing crimes is illegal. Regardless of the reality of how ccw insurance is really used or my opinion on that, it's a real legal fight right now. So be careful to check ccw insurance won't backfire in your area.
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by flybynight » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:37 am

RoneKiln wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:54 pm
So how's it going two years in?
raptor wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:42 pm
If you are lawfully carrying a CCW make damn sure that the liability covers armed security AND the security guards (i.e. you). In fact you may even want to buy CCW liability coverage for yourself. It is easy to obtain and will cost less than speaking to an attorney for 2 hours.
In my region, the state attorney general is gunning for ccw insurance, claiming it's illegal. Cause he assumes anything involving a gun would be a crime, and insuring people for committing crimes is illegal. Regardless of the reality of how ccw insurance is really used or my opinion on that, it's a real legal fight right now. So be careful to check ccw insurance won't backfire in your area.
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by raptor » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:17 am

If CCW insurance poses a threat in your area from either an optics or legal perspective; I would suggest the you either decline the gig for volunteer armed security or provide the service armed with non-lethal weapons.

The entity (i.e church or temple) should still be able to get such a policy or rider but it is unlikely to cover the volunteer.
Also read the CCW insurance policy to make sure volunteer gigs are covered.

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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by NT2C » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:24 pm

Regardless of any other possible coverage, I cannot stress strongly enough that each person on your medical team also carry personal malpractice insurance. When I worked as an EMT in the 80s and 90s I carried a million-dollar malpractice policy, and seriously considered upping it to twice that just before I retired from the job. The coverage is not hugely expensive (at least it wasn't then) and gives quite a bit of peace of mind that no matter what happens, you're protected.
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by raptor » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:56 pm

NT2C wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:24 pm
Regardless of any other possible coverage, I cannot stress strongly enough that each person on your medical team also carry personal malpractice insurance. When I worked as an EMT in the 80s and 90s I carried a million-dollar malpractice policy, and seriously considered upping it to twice that just before I retired from the job. The coverage is not hugely expensive (at least it wasn't then) and gives quite a bit of peace of mind that no matter what happens, you're protected.
That is good advice.
Though depending upon the state there may be to some a extent a "Good Samaritan" indemnification law that may (or may not) shield a volunteer (as opposed to a paid) emergency responder. Note these laws generally do not apply to paid EMT/Medical Professionals acting in the course of their work. As a result the state law may extend that logic event to a volunteer assigned to that role.
Unfortunately frequently no good deed goes unpunished, so check it out before hand.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/g/good-samaritans/

The take away is that if you are volunteering for any activity be sure to understand the legal aspect of such voluntary activity. Many organizations require a volunteer to sign a waiver. Never ever sign a waiver; Unless and until you understand completely what rights you are waiving and give thought to the implications of such surrender of rights.

BTW again my understanding of the LA Good Samaritan Law.
https://www.neworleansbar.org/news/news ... e-you-one-
...and Mississippi Good Samaritan Law which is simpler and not quite as broad.
http://www.cprinstructor.com/MS-GS.htm
YMMV

For instance I would note that volunteer security injured in the course of the "job" in LA are not by default considered employees of the organization (they can be if the organization makes that election) and are not entitled to workman's compensation protection. Thus if you are injured, you will most likely have to cover your own expenses. You could of course depending upon the facts and state laws pursue the bad actor and the group for recovery.

Do your diligence if you choose to accept the volunteer gig.

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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by woodsghost » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:11 pm

RoneKiln wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:54 pm
So how's it going two years in?

I'm at work on lunch, so quick answer:

A few months after I started this thread I changed jobs, cities, and churches. The new one had a security team. I got a lot of education there. I recently moved back to my old city (changed jobs) and am attending my old church. I have plans to get things going again, but it will be pretty minimal.

What I've learned is internal church politics drives a lot of security decisions. Personal politics of volunteers also has a big impact. Volunteers are like cats, and difficult to herd. Big churches with thousands to throw at security have fewer issues with finding volunteers and getting them equipped/trained. Small churches are a tough gig, and leadership may be even more resistant in such situations.

I was around for 2 medical emergencies (one a death, I later found out) and a missing child. No gun fights. Not one. But a domestic situation did arise and was handled with a "if this person shows up, spend the whole time with them and watch the kids area very closely." So while it is important to train for the most scary situation, training needs to be there for the most common situations too.

A regional security conference was very interesting, and that is where I learned a lot about the shapes, sizes, problems, advantages, and leadership issues in different churches. Well worth the 3-4 hours of my time.

Quick takeaway? People are as important an issue as weapons/tactics. And the most common threats don't usually require an armed response. But for the ones which do require an armed response? Nothing else will substitute.
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by woodsghost » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:54 pm

Some more quick thoughts:

Be aware of your most likely threats. For most churches in America, the threat is medical issues for the very young or very old. Violence catches the attention, but it is less likely. When it does happen, in Christian churches, it is probably a domestic violence incident of some sort. The target of violence could be a single person, or multiple people, or involve the kidnapping of children.

For the Jewish population in America, I don't hear much about domestic violence. I hear more about people outside the community who are racist and acting out that racism.

I am not aware of threats to other faith communities. But I have a good friend who is a security guard for a local Mosque.

If you are looking to secure a Christian church, I would be most attuned to domestic connections to members/attenders causing problems. If I was in a Jewish setting, I would pay more attention to people outside the community as potential causers of problems.

Another issue which needs to be addressed is the potential for sexual abuse. Some of the guys I worked with had some experiences at previous churches. Especially in a larger building where people let down their guard or there are wandering children, one needs to be aware and constantly check all rooms and closets. Lock areas which are not currently in use. This will inconvenience someone. They can suck it up.

Big churches with 1000+ people are probably more open to a security team. They have more finances and I think they see more human chaos on a regular basis. On average, 10% of the American population are actively criminals. While this is likely lower in most churches, depending on demographics, it may actually be higher in some churches. Those churches with the lowest levels of criminal content are likely to be the most likely to experience medical problems (that is, the older population). This is a potential selling point for leadership which is reluctant to allow a security team. Leadership often doesn't want the image of "needing" security and don't want the possibility of "gunslingers" walking around looking for a bad guy to punch a ticket. It can help to focus on the emergency medical needs of members and sometimes it can help to "train to standards exceeding local law enforcement." Depending on local law enforcement, this may not be a high bar to clear. This will vary by locality.

Speaking of high bars, there can be a crowd who want the the security team to be crack commandos and some who are good ol'boys who like the idea of carrying in church and want to be protectors. And some actually ARE crack commandos. One guy I worked with is a former Ranger medic with multiple tours in Afghanistan and is currently a competition shooter and contractor with the Air Force continuing to teach combat medicine. Well, he is the exception rather than the rule. Most volunteers are good hearted but on the far side of "seen better days." Some are young and very good in a difficult situation. Some refuse to carry a weapon but have strong medical skills (or are just a handy extra body if things get weird). And some people simply are not interested in being onna security team but are fantastic as resources a security team can access. One example, we had a 85 year old lady come down with medical issues and a near by CNA who works in nursing homes was on the spot and taking care of her. Security only really needed to call 911 and the CNA took care of everything else.

It is getting late and I need to hit the hay. I'll add more as I'm able.
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*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

RoneKiln
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Posts: 813
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:21 am

flybynight wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:37 am
RoneKiln wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:54 pm
So how's it going two years in?
raptor wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:42 pm
If you are lawfully carrying a CCW make damn sure that the liability covers armed security AND the security guards (i.e. you). In fact you may even want to buy CCW liability coverage for yourself. It is easy to obtain and will cost less than speaking to an attorney for 2 hours.
In my region, the state attorney general is gunning for ccw insurance, claiming it's illegal. Cause he assumes anything involving a gun would be a crime, and insuring people for committing crimes is illegal. Regardless of the reality of how ccw insurance is really used or my opinion on that, it's a real legal fight right now. So be careful to check ccw insurance won't backfire in your area.
What's your region again?
Solely for consideration when deciding how to legally protect yourself. I'm not arguing one way or the other on the politics (twitch, twitch). The links below only scratch the surface of what's going on in my corner of the world on this larger subject.

https://www.concealedcarry.com/firearms ... insurance/

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... ton-state/
"Seriously the most dangerous thing you are likely to do is to put salt on a Big Mac right before you eat it and to climb into your car."
--Raptor

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RonnyRonin
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Location: Front Range, CO

Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by RonnyRonin » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:13 pm

I have been on my church security team for at least a year now.

we are a small, fairly homogeneous congregation in a very quiet part of town. We are tucked away in a quiet neighborhood with little traffic, and what foot traffic we get is largely joggers on a path across a creek. The town itself has pretty shockingly low crime stats, and other then a growing homeless population is pretty much an ivory tower.

Our security team is decidedly not armed, I am fairly certain I am the only member of the church with a CCW license and I keep that to myself given the feelings of the congregation. we lock the doors during service and have radios, one member stays in the sanctuary and one roams around the church to keep an eye outside and let in any latecomers.

I was heartened by the level headedness of the leadership as to what was a reasonable response and what was actually likely to happen, for instance while a few members inquired about the feasibility of barricading doors (glass doors I may add) in case of an attacker, they were gently reminded that a fire was far and away more likely then a violent encounter and the speed and ease of egress was the priority. Even just having someone in sight of the kitchen in case of a fire is probably more useful then myself carrying a gun. I carry a fairly extensive FAK in an ankle carrier but I have been remiss in checking the condition of the stationary FAKs in the church, and I should probably supplement them or add my own stationary kit.

I think the single biggest thing we could do is add cameras, as it would make it a trivial task to watch all sides of the church, and would even make it easier to see latecomers that need let in. I have not floated this to council yet, but I should investigate the insurance savings that Woods Ghost mentioned above as that could be a more palatable pitch, and certainly property crime when vacant is more likely then violent crime while occupied given the use schedule of the church. If anyone has a good recommendation for cameras I'd be all ears.
share your tobacco and your kindling, but never your sauna or your woman.

AK, Glock, Pie.

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woodsghost
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Re: Non-profit Security team advice/questions?

Post by woodsghost » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:26 pm

Quick thought:

I believe my current church installed cameras because insurance offered a lower rate. I'm not sure why, but that was what I was told. I'm not even sure we paid to install them, but my current church has a bunch of cameras installed. My old (more security centric) church has 1 camera. I am not privy to the logic behind that, but it may change at some point.

Interesting note, I'm getting texts from the CCW holders at my current church, and we may get things a little more squared away. I was going to write about the lack of progress here after I left, but the recent Texas incident I think is throwing a little gas in the car. Some folks talking about moving from pocket carry to belt carry, at least, and getting things formalized with the leadership.

I think the video of men getting killed has a real sobering effect.
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

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