Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

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Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by raptor » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:38 am

This is a link to a story about the incident which supplies the facts of the case.

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/ ... 574b9.html

Please read it first if you chose to post a reply.


This is a video of a local sheriff’s deputy (JPSO) defending himself against criminal who has a loaded 9mm pistol.

This video contains images of the criminal being shot and killed.

****The video is violent and NSFW. ****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMKX50dxJQk


This incident happened not too far from my home (1 mile +/-) and other than the local press; I do not think it made news elsewhere.

I normally do not post such violent material as the video but in this case it is key to the few lessons to learn from this matter:

1.) The actual time between when the JPSO sees the suspect and shoots is at most 2 seconds. In that time frame he had to make a risk assessment, decide to engage and then engage and hit the target. Gun fights happen fast. Obviously each incident is different and YMMV.

2.) The range of both people was ~10 yards +/-. Gun fights happen close and quickly. Again YMMV.

3.) The criminal pointed his weapon twice at the officer in this time and the only reason that he did not fire was that his firearm malfunctioned. Firearms malfunction. (Thank God in this case the correct one malfunctioned.)

4.) The criminal was stealing $4,000 (retail) of tires and rims. He died and was willing to kill a LEO for two tires and rims. There are violent people who will risk their own death and/or kill you for almost anything they value. They may be in your backyard.

5.) The entire incident was captured on a CCTV system owned the local newspaper. Thus the CCTV provided (albeit poor quality video) absolute proof of the entire incident. A quality impartial witness (in the case the CCTV) is priceless. Note that after watching the video, even the family of the dead criminal said the shooting was justified.

6.)The LEO was putting his life on the line at zero dark thirty for about $40,000 +/- per year and avoided death in this case only by luck/divine intervention/fate or whatever. The only lesson I can think of is the old saying "If offered a choice of good luck or skill...choose good luck every time."

I am sure there are other lessons we can discuss from this incident but please lets stay within the forum rules regarding such discussions.

This thread is not meant to bash anyone or glorify anyone, but rather to try and learn some lessons and gain a perspective into such incidents. IMO there were no "winners" that night, only survivors and casualties.

This is an adult subject and any non-adult or rule breaking posts will simply be deleted.




Edited to add:
A link to google earth showing the warehouse and new vehicle storage yard next door.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.9993321 ... a=!3m1!1e3


The criminal lived in one of the apartment buildings on Lake Villa Drive in the next block. This BTW is not a "bad" neighborhood.
Last edited by raptor on Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by MacWa77ace » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:05 pm

The irony
NewOrleansAdvocate wrote:Normand spoke at length at an afternoon news conference about Martes’ criminal history, social media posts where the teenager was said to boast about guns and drugs, and recent protests over police shootings .
Two suspects announced on radio call. Deputy should have cleared his 6 after firing. Other guy could have been in the alcove behind him. Luck +1.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:46 pm

Ok,

- First off they have some manpower or policy issues with that department. Clearing a building that size by himself is super high risk. Should not happen normally, really should not happen today with all the ambushes of LEO's these days.

- Secondly there are some training issues that need to be addressed. That is NOT how to properly clear a building. I am not going to go into all the problems; but his weapon was holstered when he entered the building and that was extremely careless how he went around that corner. He is lucky to be alive. If bad guys weapon had been functioning he would have gotten shot.

Indeed proof that it is better to be lucky than good. Too bad you can't rely on luck.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by raptor » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:50 pm

There was on thing that I neglected to mention. It is not in the article but I confirmed it from another source.

The JPSO was not wearing his ballistic vest. The JPSO allows individual officers to make the choice to wear or not due to the issues of heat and comfort in the NOLA summertime.

The ambient temperature at night will still be 85F+ with humidity @ 90%+. As such the vests are quite uncomfortable ... that is ... until you run around the corner and need it.

So I would add the lesson of:

If you have PPE ... wear it and use it properly. If you need PPE and do not have it ...get the PPE!
Whether it is a ballistic vest or head gear or steel toe shoes, the lesson is applicable.
Last edited by raptor on Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:55 pm

We get the option out here of not wearing vests also on really hot days.

Fug it I say. I wore 65 pounds of body armor and gear every day on patrol in Basrah with 115 degree heat and 90% humidity I sure as hell am not worried about riding around in the AC the majority of the time with a six pound Hollywood vest on.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by uncleben03 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:41 pm

raptor wrote:There was on thing that I neglected to mention. It is not in the article but I confirmed it from another source.

The JPSO was not wearing his ballistic vest. The JPSO allows individual officers to make the choice to wear or not due to the issues of heat and comfort in the NOLA summertime.

The ambient temperature at night will still be 85F+ with humidity @ 90%+. As such the vests are quite uncomfortable ... that is ... until you run around the corner and need it.

So I would add the lesson of:

If you have PPE ... wear it and use it properly. If you need PPE and do not have it ...get the PPE!
Whether it is a ballistic vest or head gear or steel toe shoes, the lesson is applicable.
This is the one thing I will pester other officers about without fail Wear your f*cking vest. All shift, every shift. My night shifts here during the summer regularly never drop below 85 with literally a 98% humidity. Heat indexes of 120 during day shift (damn corn sweat, look it up if you're not in the midwest). In 9 years, I've never once considered not wearing my vest because of it. I cannot echo raptor's statement about wearing your PPE loud enough.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by TacAir » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:25 pm

My sister worked as a City officer in Tucson SoAz- 110F days, 100F at night.

Never left the house with her water bottle and ballistic vest.

She busted a guy with a 'loaded weapon' - 9mm autoloader. It might have been dangerous if the...dimbulb hadn't loaded the magazine with the rounds backwards ... Lucky him, he is sitting in jail and not 6 feet under.

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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by raptor » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:49 pm

Another point for non-LEOs checking on a "bump in the night" or a similar situation.

Do this only with 2 or more people. Stay in pairs and be prepared by watching each other's back.

Thugs also frequently travel in pairs and pairs of pairs if you see one odds are good there is at least one more.

The other suggestion is if possible do not investigate such a noise until reinforcements arrive.

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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:27 pm

raptor wrote:Another point for non-LEOs checking on a "bump in the night" or a similar situation.

Do this only with 2 or more people. Stay in pairs and be prepared by watching each other's back.

Thugs also frequently travel in pairs and pairs of pairs if you see one odds are good there is at least one more.

The other suggestion is if possible do not investigate such a noise until reinforcements arrive.

Actually that is a good point for LEOs too, from this week:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/201 ... -homicide/
The Travis County Sheriff's Office is reeling this week as it investigates the events that led to the shooting death of one of its own deputies. Sergeant Craig Hutchinson was found dead near a creek behind his Round Rock backyard Monday morning after requesting backup from his colleagues.

Hutchinson, a 32-year veteran of TCSO who was set to retire in September, had just come off of a shift and was still in uniform back at his house early on Monday morning when he heard noises coming from a shed in his backyard. Suspecting a robbery, he called Round Rock's emergency communication center asking for backup at 1:22am, saying then that he saw an undetermined number of people running through his backyard, according to Travis County Sheriff Greg Hamilton, who gave an address early Monday morning outside Hutchinson's house on the 2000 block of Oak Meadow Drive. Officers from both Round Rock PD and TCSO arrived at Hutch­in­son's house at 1:32am to find Hutchinson laying close to a creek behind the backyard.

Hutchinson was taken to Round Rock Hospital and pronounced dead there.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by andrewza » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:49 pm

That cop is lucky.

As for the people talking about his lack of training. Sure he did not clear the building properly but he is a street cop. This is not in there mandate and they are not trained for it. Most cops in America will never fire a shot in anger so it may be a waist of time and resources to give every cop Tactical Training.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by MacWa77ace » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:07 pm

andrewza wrote:That cop is lucky.

As for the people talking about his lack of training. Sure he did not clear the building properly but he is a street cop. This is not in there mandate and they are not trained for it. Most cops in America will never fire a shot in anger so it may be a waist of time and resources to give every cop Tactical Training.
If its mandatory that I carry a gun for my profession. I will be out of pocket if need be to be better trained with my 'tool', than everyone else I could ever possibly encounter.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by andrewza » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:36 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
andrewza wrote:That cop is lucky.

As for the people talking about his lack of training. Sure he did not clear the building properly but he is a street cop. This is not in there mandate and they are not trained for it. Most cops in America will never fire a shot in anger so it may be a waist of time and resources to give every cop Tactical Training.
If its mandatory that I carry a gun for my profession. I will be out of pocket if need be to be better trained with my 'tool', than everyone else I could ever possibly encounter.
This is true but I am sure you know not every one sees it that way.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by Stercutus » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:49 pm

andrewza wrote:That cop is lucky.

As for the people talking about his lack of training. Sure he did not clear the building properly but he is a street cop. This is not in there mandate and they are not trained for it. Most cops in America will never fire a shot in anger so it may be a waist of time and resources to give every cop Tactical Training.
Building clearing is currently a part of every training program at every police law enforcement academy in every state in the US. I am not sure what you mean by "tactical training" but feel free to share what you mean and what else you know about training police in America.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by andrewza » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:04 pm

Stercutus wrote:
andrewza wrote:That cop is lucky.

As for the people talking about his lack of training. Sure he did not clear the building properly but he is a street cop. This is not in there mandate and they are not trained for it. Most cops in America will never fire a shot in anger so it may be a waist of time and resources to give every cop Tactical Training.
Building clearing is currently a part of every training program at every police law enforcement academy in every state in the US. I am not sure what you mean by "tactical training" but feel free to share what you mean and what else you know about training police in America.

It training given to tactical teams and other units that may be more likely in these situations, not sure what you would call it but it a name I got for it. And if every cop in the US gets building clearing training it not enough if that's the out come then there are problems, though I doubt they are or if they are they don't maintain that training. My source for not every cop in USA being trained to the need level to clear a building is from a Dallas cop.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by Stercutus » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Here is the Syllabus for the Dallas Police Academy:

http://www3.dallascityhall.com/committe ... 032612.pdf

You will note on pages 16-20 there are several different requirements for training dealing with building searches and responding to burglaries in progress (such as the case here).

This is an old syllabus and does not include the 40 hours of AST that has been mandated (and funded) at the Federal Level since 2014. The AST is much more detailed and deals specifically with AS threats.

If you want current Texas requirements check here:

https://www.tcole.texas.gov/content/pro ... rtificates
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by andrewza » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:48 pm

Stercutus wrote:Here is the Syllabus for the Dallas Police Academy:

http://www3.dallascityhall.com/committe ... 032612.pdf

You will note on pages 16-20 there are several different requirements for training dealing with building searches and responding to burglaries in progress (such as the case here).

This is an old syllabus and does not include the 40 hours of AST that has been mandated (and funded) at the Federal Level since 2014. The AST is much more detailed and deals specifically with AS threats.

If you want current Texas requirements check here:

https://www.tcole.texas.gov/content/pro ... rtificates

The training I am talking about is 8 weeks and only covers weapons phase, urban phase, rural phase, operational simulations, unarmed combat (every day during training), advanced crowd management
http://www.gov.za/tactical-response-team-receives-boost


Phase 3 of a street cop is 10 weeks long and covers a lot more than just shooting. If US cops are trained to the same level of a tactical team they would need a extra 10 weeks.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by Stercutus » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:47 pm

Ok, now you are cramming stuff in there.

My comments addressed this:
As for the people talking about his lack of training. Sure he did not clear the building properly but he is a street cop. This is not in there mandate and they are not trained for it. Most cops in America will never fire a shot in anger so it may be a waist of time and resources to give every cop Tactical Training.
My point being there is a mandate and they are trained on it. I have no clue what Tactical Response Teams in South Africa do or how that got worked into the situation but I will agree that US police are likely not trained on whatever it is.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by andrewza » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:05 pm

Stercutus wrote:Ok, now you are cramming stuff in there.

My comments addressed this:
As for the people talking about his lack of training. Sure he did not clear the building properly but he is a street cop. This is not in there mandate and they are not trained for it. Most cops in America will never fire a shot in anger so it may be a waist of time and resources to give every cop Tactical Training.
My point being there is a mandate and they are trained on it. I have no clue what Tactical Response Teams in South Africa do or how that got worked into the situation but I will agree that US police are likely not trained on whatever it is.

TRT is the local station SWAT team, NIU is national and task force is a police special forces team and the other rapid response team is flying squad who have a less training than say SWAT but more than a basic officer.


They may get a few days in it but that does not mean ready to do it. That is why there are SWAT teams. After a few days training done some time if not years ago I can see how that cop is not trained for what he did hence the mistakes. Maybe time spent training should be increased. Cops here have had there training time in crowd management and tactical training increased to 3 weeks from a few days.
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by Stercutus » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:13 pm

They may get a few days in it but that does not mean ready to do it. That is why there are SWAT teams.
Patrol officers conduct building searches every day in practically every city in the country. SWAT Teams are almost never employed in that role unless it is part of something else (high risk warrant service, AST, hostage situation, standoff etc).
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Re: Lessons From a LEO Lawfully Defending Himself in NOLA

Post by andrewza » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:55 pm

Stercutus wrote:
They may get a few days in it but that does not mean ready to do it. That is why there are SWAT teams.
Patrol officers conduct building searches every day in practically every city in the country. SWAT Teams are almost never employed in that role unless it is part of something else (high risk warrant service, AST, hostage situation, standoff etc).

And day in and day out nothing happens. They build up bad habits cut corners until it becomes the norm.
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