St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by LJ126 » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:34 pm

selen wrote:However, I think in US the law enforcement gets away too easily when they kill an unarmed person.
First and foremost, an unarmed person is very dangerous, and unarmed people beat other people to death all of the time. Reality is, in every single fight, regardless whether someone is armed or not, there's the potential that someone could die. When there's a large difference in size, that likelihood increases.

Second, when you have someone who is committed to an act of violence against a police officer, it is not unreasonable for that officer to fear that said assailant may obtain control of their weapon. Obviously, if they obtain the weapon, it makes a dangerous person even more dangerous: one who can kill many, quickly.

So when you say that LE in the USA "get away" too easily when they're forced to use lethal force, what you're actually telling us is that you have no idea how dangerous people can be, and even less about lawful use of force in the United States.
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by Stercutus » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:33 pm

One of the fascinating aspects of this cognitive dissonance people seem to have is that any person who will publicly and violently attack an armed representative of the legal system of organized society is incredibly dangerous and not some sweet misguided child. That person is more than likely to attack and kill anyone he meets who stands in the way of his objectives because he fears not arms nor the power of the laws of society.
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by LJ126 » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:04 pm

Stercutus wrote:One of the fascinating aspects of this cognitive dissonance people seem to have is that any person who will publicly and violently attack an armed representative of the legal system of organized society is incredibly dangerous and not some sweet misguided child. That person is more than likely to attack and kill anyone he meets who stands in the way of his objectives because he fears not arms nor the power of the laws of society.
Precisely, and well said.

There's an important distinction between a distaste for law enforcement officials, and complete disregard for them. Those who characterize the latter are incredibly dangerous, both to those with whom they interact on a less than personal basis and to society as a whole.
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by duodecima » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:08 pm

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So anybody else in St Louis or elsewhere want to share an experience of using preps to prepare for or deal with protests or civil unrest?
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by angelofwar » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:17 am

Due to the demographics in my AOR, I have made a mental note to pack heat when the verdict comes down...not too worried, as we're a small southern town, but...BUT, things could get silly...and I will be ready if some-one makes me a target. I have scanners that I monitor, so that will give me a heads up if things go south, and then I could break out and out more "heat" on standby....
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by Stercutus » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:35 am

Did you mean:

Image

or

Image

Cuz they could both be useful in a mass protest situation just in different ways.
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by LJ126 » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:00 am

angelofwar wrote:Due to the demographics in my AOR, I have made a mental note to pack heat when the verdict comes down...not too worried, as we're a small southern town, but...BUT, things could get silly...and I will be ready if some-one makes me a target. I have scanners that I monitor, so that will give me a heads up if things go south, and then I could break out and out more "heat" on standby....
Only useful until the radios go scrambled. We've been running scrambled for weeks now.
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:07 pm

Thanks for all the useful input, everyone.

I think that no matter what the grand jury decision is, there will be some sort of backlash. Law enforcement in Missouri seems to agree, as they've spent thousands and thousands of dollars on their own "preps".

At the end of the day, I want nothing bad to happen to anybody, and for people to continue to peacefully talk, debate, and protest things they want to peacefully talk about, debate about and protest against.

I have a... hunch, that things may become violent once the grand jury decision is made and announced publicly. As a result, my strong belief is that people should be prepared. This thread is only a discussion on preparations for a repeat bout of civil unrest.

Best wishes always,
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by Stercutus » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:12 pm

I have a... hunch, that things may become violent once the grand jury decision is made and announced publicly. As a result, my strong belief is that people should be prepared. This thread is only a discussion on preparations for a repeat bout of civil unrest.
So you think the police will riot if he is indicted? It might be tough to prepare for that.
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by absinthe beginner » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:51 pm

You have to understand very simple concept like innocent until proven guilty
Innocent people in this country routinely plead guilty to things they've never done or never would do, because they lack the resources to pay for a proper legal defense and unscrupulous proscecutors routinely "throw the book" at defendants who refuse to plead out rather than contest the charges against them. I've also had first-hand experience with cops lying under oath, and in an emergency scenario won't be under any illusions that police or national guard are allies. But that's another subject for another day.

As far as Ferguson, I would be interested in knowing what emergency responders are being told, and are preparing for. It goes without saying that anyone who lives in an area that could be affected by civil disturbances would be prudent to prepare accordingly. And a number of posters on this thread have made great points about why this is a valid topic for discussion as a preparedness matter regardless of which topic heading you peg it under.
Last edited by absinthe beginner on Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:45 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by angelofwar » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:55 pm

LJ126 wrote:
angelofwar wrote:Due to the demographics in my AOR, I have made a mental note to pack heat when the verdict comes down...not too worried, as we're a small southern town, but...BUT, things could get silly...and I will be ready if some-one makes me a target. I have scanners that I monitor, so that will give me a heads up if things go south, and then I could break out and out more "heat" on standby....
Only useful until the radios go scrambled. We've been running scrambled for weeks now.
Our PD has limited Tac-lines...but the main chatter would continue on "public channels", as well as fire and EMS...you can pick up quite a bit of "police activity" on those if you know what to listen for...

E.G., tonight the PD dispatcher called in a XX year old, Signal-8...seconds later EMS comes across the channels "We have an XX year old female, with a knife attempting suicide...". Well, now I know what signal 8's are...
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by hondo » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:03 am

absinthe beginner wrote:
You have to understand very simple concept like innocent until proven guilty
Innocent people in this country routinely plead guilty to things they've never done or never would do, because they lack the resources to pay for a proper legal defense and unscrupulous proscecutors routinely "throw the book" at defendants who refuse to plead out rather than contest the charges against them. I've also had first-hand experience with cops lying under oath, so in an emergency scenario I will be under no illusions that police or national guard will be allies or protectors. But that's another subject for another day.

As far as Ferguson, I would be interested in knowing what emergency responders are being told, and are preparing for. It goes without saying that anyone who lives in an area that could be affected by civil disturbances would be prudent to prepare accordingly. And a number of posters on this thread have made great points about why this is a valid topic for discussion as a preparedness matter regardless of which topic heading you peg it under.
They are still innocent until they plead guilty at that point they are proven guilty.
Now as far the rest of your post I elaborated that issue in the "Use of the rifle in self defense" topic let me regurgitate what I wrote 98% of people in the USA who are convicted never exercised their right on trial by jury of their peers. Good lawyers cost money but they are worth of it in the long run. I do not get in the troubles but I still have 3 different excellent lawyers on the speed dial same goes for Mrs. Hondo and Hondo Jrs. As far as cops lying on the stand I am going to tell you there are stupid people but 99,99% of the cops won't throw away their credibility to get conviction. Once caught lying on the stand is career killer move. Now there is difference between lying and having different perception from defendant.

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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by duodecima » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:31 am

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The thread where we seem to be dealing with everybody's thoughts and opinions about Ferguson and how it relates to many other topics is here.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=114286
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by absinthe beginner » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:59 am

They are still innocent until they plead guilty at that point they are proven guilty.
No, they're not "proven" guilty if they plead guilty to something they didn't do because of coersion by police or prosecutors, which is increasingly commonplace.
Now as far the rest of your post I elaborated that issue in the "Use of the rifle in self defense" topic let me regurgitate what I wrote 98% of people in the USA who are convicted never exercised their right on trial by jury of their peers.
Defendants who elect to excersise their right to a jury trial usually find themselves with all kinds of charges thrown at them by prosecutors as a reprisal for not taking a plea bargain. For someone of limited means up against a "win at any cost" system with zealous prosecutors and often dishonest cops, taking a plea bargain, even if innocent, may seem like the best of the bad options facing them.
Good lawyers cost money but they are worth of it in the long run. I do not get in the troubles but I still have 3 different excellent lawyers on the speed dial same goes for Mrs. Hondo and Hondo Jrs.
Many defendants simply cannot afford decent legal representation and are stuck with "public pretenders" who rarely exert themselves to provide a robust legal defense. Once again, you get the justice you pay for.
As far as cops lying on the stand I am going to tell you there are stupid people but 99,99% of the cops won't throw away their credibility to get conviction. Once caught lying on the stand is career killer move. Now there is difference between lying and having different perception from defendant.
In a word, bullshit. Cops can purjure themselves with impunity - and I suspect it happens all the time - because it is almost unheard of for the so-called "good cops" to blow the whistle on one of their own - that "Blue Line of Silence" - and the criminal justice system isn't really interested in justice, just closing out cases.

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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by hondo » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:01 pm

absinthe beginner wrote:
They are still innocent until they plead guilty at that point they are proven guilty.
No, they're not "proven" guilty if they plead guilty to something they didn't do because of coersion by police or prosecutors, which is increasingly commonplace.
When they plead and subsequently get convicted they are proven guilty.
Now as far the rest of your post I elaborated that issue in the "Use of the rifle in self defense" topic let me regurgitate what I wrote 98% of people in the USA who are convicted never exercised their right on trial by jury of their peers.
Defendants who elect to excersise their right to a jury trial usually find themselves with all kinds of charges thrown at them by prosecutors as a reprisal for not taking a plea bargain. For someone of limited means up against a "win at any cost" system with zealous prosecutors and often dishonest cops, taking a plea bargain, even if innocent, may seem like the best of the bad options facing them.
Then they are stupid, it is easy to throw charges but it takes effort to make them stick.
Good lawyers cost money but they are worth of it in the long run. I do not get in the troubles but I still have 3 different excellent lawyers on the speed dial same goes for Mrs. Hondo and Hondo Jrs.
Many defendants simply cannot afford decent legal representation and are stuck with "public pretenders" who rarely exert themselves to provide a robust legal defense. Once again, you get the justice you pay for.
Lawyers work on retainer and they offer payment plan as an option.
As far as cops lying on the stand I am going to tell you there are stupid people but 99,99% of the cops won't throw away their credibility to get conviction. Once caught lying on the stand is career killer move. Now there is difference between lying and having different perception from defendant.
In a word, bullshit. Cops can purjure themselves with impunity - and I suspect it happens all the time - because it is almost unheard of for the so-called "good cops" to blow the whistle on one of their own - that "Blue Line of Silence" - and the criminal justice system isn't really interested in justice, just closing out cases.
Nope, again it is matter of perception person see him or herself talking with officer, officer sees argumentative and combative person.
As far as being unheard you are wrong there is a link for you it happened just 10 days ago.http://www.wcax.com/story/27286170/no-j ... n-shooting

Wednesday morning Corporal Jason Nokes of the Winooski Police Department pleaded no contest to reckless endangerment and lying to law enforcement.

Let's back on the topic before we derail this tread completely

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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by Stercutus » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:02 pm

Looks like the Ferguson PD is trying to head off some of the protests by throwing some evidence out there now. Seems the dispatch logs reveal that Wilson knew full well about the robbery at the store and had an accurate description of the suspects. He then runs into them minutes later.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/15/justice/f ... ?hpt=hp_c2
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by absinthe beginner » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:36 pm

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2 ... brown.html

Latest on the tensions and uncertainty regarding the possibly imminent verdict. The school district, among others, wants to know when the verdict is going to be handed down so they can take whatever measures they need to to assure the safety of their students and staff.

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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by Stercutus » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:20 am

Since we are now doing AJ apparently (the Newsmax for the Middle East :wink: ) they have an article in there about NG "contingency planning"...

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2 ... guson.html

Doesn't really say anything about preparations but blames the police for all the woes.
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by Neptune Glory » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:23 am

Stercutus wrote:
I have a... hunch, that things may become violent once the grand jury decision is made and announced publicly. As a result, my strong belief is that people should be prepared. This thread is only a discussion on preparations for a repeat bout of civil unrest.
So you think the police will riot if he is indicted? It might be tough to prepare for that.
No, not the police. Other, less disciplined supporters of Officer Wilson / people looking for an excuse to become violent. Did you see who was interviewed on MSNBC this last week? *shivers*
"When it comes to justifiable use of deadly force, you should seek to avoid confrontation, unless you have no choice and your life is on the line. This is easier to say than to do because it requires that you be calm and peace-loving throughout your life, but ready to use deadly force at any moment."

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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by absinthe beginner » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:36 pm

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that Officer Wilson will NOT be indicted, but that any resultant disturbances will be sporadic, limited in scope and intensity, and short-lived. Most of the legitimate protesters are probably resigned to the fact that an indictment is unlikely since the information that has come out to date indicates the officer had a well-founded fear for his life and acted in justifiable self-defense (and initial supposed "eyewitness accounts" that Michael Brown was gunned down while his hands were in the air lack credibility). Those findings will dissipate much of the orginal anger and passions driving the initial protests, when there was a rush to judgement against Officer Wilson and the Ferguson PD.

While there is a thug element that would readily use large-scale protests as cover to loot and maraud, such large gatherings seem unlikely to materialize and so authorities should be able to contain any outbreaks of violence. In addition, would-be looters are likely aware of the record gun sales in the Ferguson area and will factor that into their risk/benefit calculations.

That said, there is no shortage of hotheads and wild hairs among both the "protesters" and those who need very little provocation to resort to gunplay if they feel they or their families or property are under threat.
Last edited by absinthe beginner on Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by jor-el » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:52 pm

http://politicalstreet.com/un-tells-mic ... -our-time/

This should come as no surprise. They reviewed surveillance tapes and testimony which should be the same as what's in front of the Grand Jury and came to the conclusion Officer Wilson was justified.
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by Neptune Glory » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:39 pm

jor-el wrote:http://politicalstreet.com/un-tells-mic ... -our-time/

This should come as no surprise. They reviewed surveillance tapes and testimony which should be the same as what's in front of the Grand Jury and came to the conclusion Officer Wilson was justified.
Thanks, Jor-El. I hadn't seen the UN reaction before now, only that the parents had spoken before the United Nations.
"When it comes to justifiable use of deadly force, you should seek to avoid confrontation, unless you have no choice and your life is on the line. This is easier to say than to do because it requires that you be calm and peace-loving throughout your life, but ready to use deadly force at any moment."

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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by Stercutus » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:49 pm

I about sprayed soup on the monitor reading Dominguez's comments. While certainly true how bad does it have to be when the UN says that?
This should come as no surprise.
Maybe to most people. There is an element in society that will however believe it is all some vast nebular "plot". Before people crank the hyperbole on to high they might benefit from some perspective by visiting somewhere that actually has a genocide going on. Losing a son is horrible and world shattering. Losing everyone you ever knew to getting raped and then hacked to death with machetes is truly the end of the world as you knew it.

The people that don't grasp this are dangerous in their ignorance and will be the first in favor of doing whatever they want to fulfill their vast sense of whatever Dominguez was talking about.


Edit: I thought it was too good to be true. The UN never works that fast nor are they ever that clear and direct. I checked and it is a apparently a bogus article by National Report.


http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/mikebrownun.asp
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Re: St. Louis Grand Jury Decision... pending

Post by absinthe beginner » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:35 pm

Groups readying for grand jury decision, which is expected to come this week. Tempers/emotions will be running high but ultimately (methinks) cooler heads will prevail.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/17/us/gr ... .html?_r=0

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