Private security during SHTF scenarios

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quazi
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Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by quazi » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:59 am

I think it would be interesting to have a thread on hiring private security during a SHTF scenario.

The specific scenario would of course be very important to any discussion. Are we talking an increase in crime and decline in effective policing, but things are otherwise mostly normal (such as what's going on in Detroit)? Or maybe trying to protect property from looters following an earthquake or hurricane (IIRC Raptor mentioned seeing private security types protecting a house after Katrina)? Or maybe a longer term and more extreme problem like an economic collapse or civil war?

It also depends on whether were talking about urban or rural, and individual family security or community security.

Despite the dependency on scenario, I figure it would probably be better to keep it to one thread. But it will probably be helpful if people mention what kind of scenario they're talking about in their posts.

I think it would be interesting to talk about how to avoid being “ripped off.” Are there ways to verify people have the qualifications they say they have? Is there any way to ensure that people will try to protect you, or do you just have to assume they'll retreat at the sight of the first drunken hobo? How would you avoid becoming the victim of the very people who have been hired to protect you? (I imagine this wouldn't be as big of a deal in a “Detroit” scenario.)

What about making sure that you private security complies with the law? Having them put up a checkpoint on a public road might get everyone in trouble after order is restored. Also, what about a situation where there is more than one group claiming to be the legitimate authority?

I think it'd also be interesting to compare and contrast hiring private security with the competing model, a neighborhood watch/militia.

It would obviously be best to try to make arrangements before TSHTF, but it would also be interesting to discuss what to do after things have started. Maybe your initial plan didn't work and now you have to try to figure out the best way to protect your family and/or community?

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by Murphman » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:14 am

My opinion, if you have the money to hire private security for any amount of time, you probably already have hired them in the past and know who they are, what they can do, and how much they can help.

The history of mercenaries is what is for a reason...
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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by gundogs » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:26 am

I dunno. After the SHTF wouldn't the security guys want to be protecting their own family and property?
I envision lots of cops and military "abandoning their posts" & going home

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by Boondock » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:37 am

I'm gonna bet that most people don't have the cash to hire private security. And then there's a host of potential legal nightmares associated with doing so. Seems like time and money could be spent on other methods to beef up security.

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by Doryman » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:06 pm

Depends on how bad S has HTF... There's a blogger named FerFal who writes about life in post-monetary collapse Argentina. The place never went full Thunderdome but the Argentine people did have to deal with crumbling infrastructure and soaring crime rates for a long time. From what I remember, he claims that a lot of the richer families and neighbourhoods started hiring armed guards. Seems like employing guards (or becoming a guard yourself) would be a feasible shtf strategy.


As to how one would go about it... I'd say that the best strategy is to get together with your neigbours on the street/building, and identify any resident who has the skills and willingness to do the job. If anyone is game, then the others can chip in a certain amount to employ him to police the homes and businesses while everyone is off at work. Essentially, the guard would become the designated sherriff of whatever tiny community you have. There'd be a decent amount of trustworthiness, since the street/building/gated community/etc. the guarding is protecting is his home as well as the others. He's more likely to do a good job.

That's essentially the origin of every police force in the world, just writ on a smaller scale.
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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by MacAttack » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:03 pm

I can not see a total SHTF situation were hiring people to be guards would eventually work out for the better.

You would have to provide for all their families also. Either in paying them more or through housing and in turn protecting and feeding their families.

Eventually you will run out of cash or whatever you are paying them in and they could just turn on you as easy as anyone else.

Your going to need a way to make a profit during this time or face running out of pay.
Paying for professional solders is very resource expensive. They only consume and never create. And these would be pros if all they do is guard. (maybe not good or experienced but paid and thus pros.)

To get around this you could hire their family to work in order to help turn a profit. Spinning cloth and growing food for profit and sustenance.
You could set them up like cowboys of the old west. Working day to day but hired guns when needed.

Eventually you in essence are becoming a feudal lord. Granting knights land in exchange for fidelity and taxes. Using your household staff to make products for sale along with keeping your house running.


In a non total situation just make sure their is and end in sight and make sure you can trust them.

Or just get together with friends and neighbors and share the duty like everyone else.

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by quazi » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:47 pm

Murphman wrote:My opinion, if you have the money to hire private security for any amount of time, you probably already have hired them in the past and know who they are, what they can do, and how much they can help.
Boondock wrote:I'm gonna bet that most people don't have the cash to hire private security.
I'd agree if we're talking about the days immediately following a hurricane or during a major riot. But what about more long term scenarios?

If my understanding of what's going on in Detroit is correct (I've only read a few articles, so I may very well be wrong) not all the neighborhoods hiring private security are extremely wealthy. The ones hiring very experienced guards with body armor, tricked out SUVs, etc. are probably very rich neighborhoods. It sounds like a lot of the security is more mall-cop style. A few guys drive around in a truck and if they see something suspicious they shine their flashlights, start filming and call the police.
Boondock wrote:Seems like time and money could be spent on other methods to beef up security.
In what kind of scenario are you talking about? What if an individual or community is cash-poor but rich in other resources?
gundogs wrote:I dunno. After the SHTF wouldn't the security guys want to be protecting their own family and property?
I envision lots of cops and military "abandoning their posts" & going home
In certain scenarios yes, I definitely agree. What about four years into a severe economic depression where there are a lot of people looking for work and the crime rate is very high?

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:53 pm

The thing to remember about mercs is that they only work as long as they're getting paid, and so long as the compensation is worth the danger. If I were gonna hire security, I'd wanna make sure they could do something besides just shoot.
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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by quazi » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:05 pm

Doryman wrote: As to how one would go about it... I'd say that the best strategy is to get together with your neigbours on the street/building, and identify any resident who has the skills and willingness to do the job. If anyone is game, then the others can chip in a certain amount to employ him to police the homes and businesses while everyone is off at work. Essentially, the guard would become the designated sherriff of whatever tiny community you have. There'd be a decent amount of trustworthiness, since the street/building/gated community/etc. the guarding is protecting is his home as well as the others. He's more likely to do a good job.

That's essentially the origin of every police force in the world, just writ on a smaller scale.
I think this would be the safest way to go about it. I think that a side benefit of hiring people with guns but no food would be to keep honest people honest. There are some people who under normal circumstances would never do anything evil, but if their children are going hungry they would do whatever they have to. Of course, there are also people who might just be trying to get an individual/community to let their guard down before taking them for everything they have.

Edit: I also used the term "private security" when maybe I shouldn't have. What I meant was hiring people to do security as their primary job. If a community is doing the hiring the person might no longer be considered "private" but "public." In some scenarios it probably wouldn't be too difficult to hire an actual law enforcement officer, but if the government is too busy or non-existent the current procedures might not be an option.
Last edited by quazi on Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by Doryman » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:16 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that in a SHTF scenario, it's doubtful things will just flip from current conditons straight to The Road. It's more likely to be a general decline, or a quick transition to a shittier, 3rd world-esque existence.

I take my cues from from places like Argentina, South Africa,Haiti and ,yes, Detroit. As rough as they might be at time, there is still a society, some form of local governance, some form of trade, etc. There are still elites with some sort of wealth, land, power or influence,and there are people who work for them.
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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by 101airborne » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:12 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:The thing to remember about mercs is that they only work as long as they're getting paid, and so long as the compensation is worth the danger. If I were gonna hire security, I'd wanna make sure they could do something besides just shoot.
Agreed plus by description MOST "mercaneries" will work for any "flag" and any political ideaology. Their only loyalty is to who ever offers them the best pay/ benefits. So your taking the chance of someone else offering them more to work for them and turn on you.

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by quazi » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:31 pm

MacAttack wrote:I can not see a total SHTF situation were hiring people to be guards would eventually work out for the better.
I don't know, I guess it depends on what “total SHTF” is. I'm pretty sure that professional security has had a place pretty much everywhere that has even a basic economy. If no specialization or comparative advantage exists, or if things are so nasty that nobody leaves their basement then professional security might not work out.
MacAttack wrote:You would have to provide for all their families also. Either in paying them more or through housing and in turn protecting and feeding their families.

Eventually you will run out of cash or whatever you are paying them in and they could just turn on you as easy as anyone else.

Your going to need a way to make a profit during this time or face running out of pay.
Yes, a person would definitely need a sustainable source of income, just as if they wanted to pay for any other service on an ongoing basis.
MacAttack wrote:Paying for professional solders is very resource expensive. They only consume and never create. And these would be pros if all they do is guard. (maybe not good or experienced but paid and thus pros.)

To get around this you could hire their family to work in order to help turn a profit. Spinning cloth and growing food for profit and sustenance.

You could set them up like cowboys of the old west. Working day to day but hired guns when needed.
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:The thing to remember about mercs is that they only work as long as they're getting paid, and so long as the compensation is worth the danger. If I were gonna hire security, I'd wanna make sure they could do something besides just shoot.
My understanding, which may be inaccurate, is that it was fairly common in the past to hire on whole families for help.

If we're talking about an individual family it would probably be too costly to hire on someone who's job is only to provide security, in which case the ranch hand model might be best. For a whole community the costs would be more distributed and there would be a much larger area to patrol.

Of course the work could still be split. People might make part of their living by hunting and foraging and another part by being paid to keep their eyes open for suspicious activity.
MacAttack wrote:Eventually you in essence are becoming a feudal lord. Granting knights land in exchange for fidelity and taxes. Using your household staff to make products for sale along with keeping your house running.
I think that trading land for services might work for some families and communities that have an abundance of land. I think it has the advantage of giving the person doing the security something to work towards. A person might be more willing to do a dangerous job for a few years if they know that at the end they'll have enough to sustain their family in the future. Of course, if the person/community wanting to hire security doesn't behave reasonably and tries to take advantage of its employees I don't imagine things would work out very well.

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by raptor » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:04 pm

Private security is a pretty broad term. It can run from a minimum wage, unarmed, uniformed person (male/female) who does nothing but stand there and watch with instructions to call the police to Blackwater types that may be armed with .50 cal BMG. For the purpose of this response the true mercenaries hired by governments are being ignored.

In my real world I employ private security for a variety of tasks. That said they do not directly work for me or my company but rather the security company who actually employs them, whom I hire for the service and more importantly provides me with a liability insurance policy naming and waiving me as an insured party. This is because the company that hires them and the person whose property they protect, own every single bullet they discharge and action they commit, in the course of their duty/work. I would also note that the owner of the firearm in my state is likewise potentially liable if the firearm is used off duty and results in injury. Why is the latter important? Because when aforesaid security guard goes off duty and gets drunk, fights with his girlfriend and pulls out and discharges the firearm that he uses for work and is owned by his employer and damages something, who do you think gets sued? If you guessed his employer who owns the firearm you are the winner!


I really discourage anyone from directly employing a security guard (as opposed to a security company) unless they have good lawyers, deep pockets, a big and broad liability insurance policy and good management to supervise the security guards. I likewise encourage anyone who has security guards on the payroll to make sure the guards own their own pistols and change out of their uniforms before leaving the job site to avoid having after hours incident be considered in the scope of employment.

As mentioned above I have hired "special guards" after Katrina. That was arranged by my partner through a friend. He actually called another friend who had hired some active duty foreign troops who apparently were on "approved leave". He flew them to NOLA for a few weeks. They stayed at a couple of houses and kept an eye on things. I have no idea who they were, what country from which they were on leave, how much they were paid or even how they were paid. I know nothing about that... that is my story and I am sticking to it.

On more realistic scenario I think you should consider what it is you are trying to guard and from whom. The security guards I employ are utilized at a secure office building and really have to only deal with feral kids, street people and the occasional drunk tourist. The rest of the time they simply observe. They are not allowed to leave the building except to go off duty.

In instances where out side security is needed and this may come in handy for a SHTF situation I have also hired off duty police officers. I actually was able to hire off duty LEOs after Katrina through a LEO friend of mine to help with access and security.

Different cities have different rules but in NOLA there is a central number to call and arrange a detail. That said I generally hire the same LEOs assuming they do a good job and I call them directly. I pay an hourly fee, they get paid as an independent contractor. I either have to have special event insurance to cover the potential liability or since I have security guard coverage if they are working for the building, my liability and work man's compensation policy will provide insurance coverage.

So by now you are saying "gee this is boring, all he does is talk about insurance". The reason for this is the first question you need to ask your self and this applies to neighbors banding together is "Who is responsible for the actions of the guards." If something goes wrong and someone gets hurt, legalities aside there will be a claim and a lawsuit. If the security guard, off duty LEO and/or foreign military personnel is hurt or hurts someone the property owner and employer should sure will want insurance. They will look at their training, your instructions to them and all aspects of the matter and try and hoist you on your own inadequacies ...whatever that may be.

My advice is simple do not own anything that requires a security guard. If you need a security guard check your insurance coverage and then make sure you get an insurance certificate naming and waiving you as an additional insured under the security company's policy and then give that to your insurance agent to review for adequacy.

Oh and yes in a SHTF rules and legalities may seem irrelevant after all things have changed right? Wrong.
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=60213" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by raptor on Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by quazi » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:05 pm

MacAttack wrote:Or just get together with friends and neighbors and share the duty like everyone else.
Who is everyone else? What scenario are you talking about?

I should clarify that I haven't been talking specifically about myself or my plans so far. I don't see my family hiring to security for our homestead. We have a large extended family and a bunch of friends to take care of first. But I can see where there might be people who have quite a bit of land and provisions but not much in the weigh of friends or family (or close neighbors).

Now if in a SHTF scenario my town wanted to hire some professional security, I can see paying for that.

I should also note that the town where my BOL is at is very spread out.

I think that a neighboord watch or militia and professional security aren't mutually exclusive. I think that the specific area woul dictate which model or what mix.

For example:
Community A is in the country side. It is mostly older people on 10+ acre pieces of property who are pretty good at gardening but have little experience or training in the security field.
Community B is a suburb that skews young and has a lot of well-armed people with previous military or law enforcement experience.

I can see Community A hiring some of the few people who are in shape and have experience to provide security full-time for the enitre community while most people concern themselves with their day-to-day work and personal security.

I can see Community B not bothering to have anybody just doing security work but instead just going with the neighborhood militia model.

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by Doryman » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:56 pm

'Hiring' someone as a security guard doesn't necessarily mean luring strange vagrants off the road with promises of cash and guns, a group could also 'hire' from within.

Lets say you live in a gated community. Shit goes down, the police presence is low to nonexistent and crime starts rising everywhere. Your neighbourhood is relatively calm, but since the police aren't patrolling anymore, people are afraid to leave their homes to go out and work for fear that they will come home to a burgled house, or worse, an house full of evil-minded thugs.

The people of your community decide on a plan. They will all chip in to pay YOU and a couple of your buddies to stay in the community full-time to keep the place safe and vermin free. This way, they get the freedom to go forth and work/gather resources without worrying about their homes, you get recompensed for your time and efforts (in cash, gold bullion, canned beans, bottle caps, whatever), and the community has some sort of defensive set up. Division of labour, everyone benefits.
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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by rjm » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:44 pm

Murphman wrote:My opinion, if you have the money to hire private security for any amount of time, you probably already have hired them in the past and know who they are, what they can do, and how much they can help.

The history of mercenaries is what is for a reason...
My thoughts exactly. Anyone with the resources to reasonably hire private mercenaries to protect themselves/loved ones/property during a bad situation probably has the resources to not be too freaked out with a minor/semi-major disruption of society. Other side of that coin is, once those resources run out, mercs generally aren't the most loyal band of brothers.
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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by rjm » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:04 pm

raptor wrote:In my real world I employ private security for a variety of tasks. That said they do not directly work for me or my company but rather the security company who actually employs them, whom I hire for the service and more importantly provides me with a liability insurance policy naming and waiving me as an insured party. This is because the company that hires them and the person whose property they protect, own every single bullet they discharge and action they commit, in the course of their duty/work. I would also note that the owner of the firearm in my state is likewise potentially liable if the firearm is used off duty and results in injury. Why is the latter important? Because when aforesaid security guard goes off duty and gets drunk, fights with his girlfriend and pulls out and discharges the firearm that he uses for work and is owned by his employer and damages something, who do you think gets sued? If you guessed his employer who owns the firearm you are the winner!...
As mentioned above I have hired "special guards" after Katrina. That was arranged by my partner through a friend. He actually called another friend who had hired some active duty foreign troops who apparently were on "approved leave". He flew them to NOLA for a few weeks. They stayed at a couple of houses and kept an eye on things. I have no idea who they were, what country from which they were on leave, how much they were paid or even how they were paid. I know nothing about that... that is my story and I am sticking to it.
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=60213" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't doubt what you say, other than the potential liability involved if an agent working for another company, contracted out by you is involved in a shooting. We see many times, incidents involving motor vehicles involving two parties, where the auto maker is held at fault or at minimum, partially responsible because of an accident. I know I'm probably stepping in it, but I just wouldn't trust our justice system to stick up for the rights of a property owner who hired a mercenary company to defend their property with lethal force(not to mention hiring foreign mercenaries). I have no problem with you doing what you have to do protect what's yours, I just hope you aren't going to put your faith in what some statute says armed security guards can do/ what the third party's liability is, to defend your life if the worst happens.
"Well, it's rather brutal here. Right now we are advising all our clients to put everything they've got into canned food and shotguns."

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by raptor » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:11 pm

rjm wrote:
raptor wrote:In my real world I employ private security for a variety of tasks. That said they do not directly work for me or my company but rather the security company who actually employs them, whom I hire for the service and more importantly provides me with a liability insurance policy naming and waiving me as an insured party. This is because the company that hires them and the person whose property they protect, own every single bullet they discharge and action they commit, in the course of their duty/work. I would also note that the owner of the firearm in my state is likewise potentially liable if the firearm is used off duty and results in injury. Why is the latter important? Because when aforesaid security guard goes off duty and gets drunk, fights with his girlfriend and pulls out and discharges the firearm that he uses for work and is owned by his employer and damages something, who do you think gets sued? If you guessed his employer who owns the firearm you are the winner!...
As mentioned above I have hired "special guards" after Katrina. That was arranged by my partner through a friend. He actually called another friend who had hired some active duty foreign troops who apparently were on "approved leave". He flew them to NOLA for a few weeks. They stayed at a couple of houses and kept an eye on things. I have no idea who they were, what country from which they were on leave, how much they were paid or even how they were paid. I know nothing about that... that is my story and I am sticking to it.
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=60213" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't doubt what you say, other than the potential liability involved if an agent working for another company, contracted out by you is involved in a shooting. We see many times, incidents involving motor vehicles involving two parties, where the auto maker is held at fault or at minimum, partially responsible because of an accident.


What I am saying is that if an action is brought against the building because of the actions of the security guard provided by the security company I can look to the insurance policy of his employer first and the claim has to exceed that policy limit before my insurance comes into play. It does insulate me from off duty claims as well as to a lessor extent, claims about training issues.

rjm wrote: I know I'm probably stepping in it, but I just wouldn't trust our justice system to stick up for the rights of a property owner who hired a mercenary company to defend their property with lethal force(not to mention hiring foreign mercenaries). I have no problem with you doing what you have to do protect what's yours, I just hope you aren't going to put your faith in what some statute says armed security guards can do/ what the third party's liability is, to defend your life if the worst happens.
These folks were people who had lawful access to the property and were staying at the property with the owner's full consent. Regardless of nationality they were governed by the laws of Louisiana. These laws (especially since it was a private home and not a building open to the public) provide the property owner with many rights regarding trespassing and intruders.

Fortunately there was no need to find out. :D

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by rjm » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:09 pm

raptor wrote:
rjm wrote:
raptor wrote:In my real world I employ private security for a variety of tasks. That said they do not directly work for me or my company but rather the security company who actually employs them, whom I hire for the service and more importantly provides me with a liability insurance policy naming and waiving me as an insured party. This is because the company that hires them and the person whose property they protect, own every single bullet they discharge and action they commit, in the course of their duty/work. I would also note that the owner of the firearm in my state is likewise potentially liable if the firearm is used off duty and results in injury. Why is the latter important? Because when aforesaid security guard goes off duty and gets drunk, fights with his girlfriend and pulls out and discharges the firearm that he uses for work and is owned by his employer and damages something, who do you think gets sued? If you guessed his employer who owns the firearm you are the winner!...
As mentioned above I have hired "special guards" after Katrina. That was arranged by my partner through a friend. He actually called another friend who had hired some active duty foreign troops who apparently were on "approved leave". He flew them to NOLA for a few weeks. They stayed at a couple of houses and kept an eye on things. I have no idea who they were, what country from which they were on leave, how much they were paid or even how they were paid. I know nothing about that... that is my story and I am sticking to it.
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=60213" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't doubt what you say, other than the potential liability involved if an agent working for another company, contracted out by you is involved in a shooting. We see many times, incidents involving motor vehicles involving two parties, where the auto maker is held at fault or at minimum, partially responsible because of an accident.


What I am saying is that if an action is brought against the building because of the actions of the security guard provided by the security company I can look to the insurance policy of his employer first and the claim has to exceed that policy limit before my insurance comes into play. It does insulate me from off duty claims as well as to a lessor extent, claims about training issues.

rjm wrote: I know I'm probably stepping in it, but I just wouldn't trust our justice system to stick up for the rights of a property owner who hired a mercenary company to defend their property with lethal force(not to mention hiring foreign mercenaries). I have no problem with you doing what you have to do protect what's yours, I just hope you aren't going to put your faith in what some statute says armed security guards can do/ what the third party's liability is, to defend your life if the worst happens.
These folks were people who had lawful access to the property and were staying at the property with the owner's full consent. Regardless of nationality they were governed by the laws of Louisiana. These laws (especially since it was a private home and not a building open to the public) provide the property owner with many rights regarding trespassing and intruders.

Fortunately there was no need to find out. :D
Cool. I never once had any doubt of the legality of what you/your friends were doing. I don't know you personally, but I know you well enough from this forum to know you aren't the kind of guy who would toss law/order out at the earliest convenience. My concern is/was with public perception and the aftermath should something happen as a result of having hired guards fire on "civilians" (I put them in quotes for a reason[imho looters are no longer civilians, but that's another topic]). I would only warn that just because something is technically legal, it doesn't make it "legal". You stated before the need to have great lawyers and support, and I would echo that by +100. Too often these days (political warning) what is legal is up to too many interpretations, and my warning would be not to rely on "the law" ,if again, something went wrong. That's all.
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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by Miriel » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:38 pm

As someone working in private security, I feel the need to chime in.
Although I do not know the exact laws governing private security in the US, over here the first government issued law is that I am only allowed to act if I am 100% sure I can deal with the situation or I have backup up my sleeve... so my first and foremost thought should always be my personal security . Also, 95% of private security employees will never have a firearm. Hell, I only carry pepper spray and I am not even allowed to use that unless my life is in real danger. (Firearms are usually carried by people making money drops, but even they are not actually allowed to use them. Even drawing the gun from the holster will usually end with the firm having to deal with endless and idiotic paper smearing and on worse occations, lawsuits)
In this "customer is always right" day and age, one would get more benefit from hiring actual mercenarys. Hire Somali pirates, if you have the money, but private security is just like a safety blanky. It makes you FEEL safe, but that is all it does. And in an actual SHTF situations- private security seems like a glam job, but in the end even those peolpe are human and want to make sure their family and friends are safe.

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by jjw » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:53 am

quazi wrote:I think it would be interesting to have a thread on hiring private security during a SHTF scenario.

The specific scenario would of course be very important to any discussion. Are we talking an increase in crime and decline in effective policing, but things are otherwise mostly normal (such as what's going on in Detroit)? Or maybe trying to protect property from looters following an earthquake or hurricane (IIRC Raptor mentioned seeing private security types protecting a house after Katrina)? Or maybe a longer term and more extreme problem like an economic collapse or civil war?

It also depends on whether were talking about urban or rural, and individual family security or community security.

Despite the dependency on scenario, I figure it would probably be better to keep it to one thread. But it will probably be helpful if people mention what kind of scenario they're talking about in their posts.

I think it would be interesting to talk about how to avoid being “ripped off.” Are there ways to verify people have the qualifications they say they have? Is there any way to ensure that people will try to protect you, or do you just have to assume they'll retreat at the sight of the first drunken hobo? How would you avoid becoming the victim of the very people who have been hired to protect you? (I imagine this wouldn't be as big of a deal in a “Detroit” scenario.)

What about making sure that you private security complies with the law? Having them put up a checkpoint on a public road might get everyone in trouble after order is restored. Also, what about a situation where there is more than one group claiming to be the legitimate authority?

I think it'd also be interesting to compare and contrast hiring private security with the competing model, a neighborhood watch/militia.

It would obviously be best to try to make arrangements before TSHTF, but it would also be interesting to discuss what to do after things have started. Maybe your initial plan didn't work and now you have to try to figure out the best way to protect your family and/or community?
i currently own and run a private security fimr with 20+/- operators somewhere in this world at any 1 time.
all older experienced usually from spec ops.
good "vetted" mil spec background or a govt agency
no civilians/cops/wannabe's,etc.
medics
heavy trigger time
logistics guys who know how to "get" stuff however they have to.
older govt guys tired of the rat race/politics.
we are contracted to a govt agency and do no outside work. (not relevent if shtf)

please use this as a guide line.
1. u cannot afford a "good" security team unless u have unlimited funds.
2. most american operators will be home taking care of family
3. u DO NOT want just anybody trust me on this 1.
4.logistics are unbeliveably complicated, w/o the approved paper work form a scary govt agency.
a. few live close together. my guy all come form all over florida/oregon.
b. travel with gear for them will be very dificult
c. re supply will be even more fun. think ammo on a commercial plane with all the gear.
d. insurance and liability is awsome. (shtf -all bets are off)
e. good operator makes between $4-600 a day +food/ammo/life ins polocy of 1 million we pay for.

mostly we will not be doing anything but working on our own family/friend/neighbors security and welfare.
we are all americans and patriotic but am not going shitwhere if the wheels come off.
u cant find good 1's for less
u cant "vet newbies" they will tell u anything to get money.
u cant train them unles u are already better than them. if so why need them?. train ur neighbors. simpler/ known quantity.

we worked katrina for the govt. several other crisis that didnt get the exposure.
we are currently full time in haiti, during security for a huge national medical facility.
a lot of laws and b/shit beaurecrats stuff will not be relevent in a true shtf, so a lot of b/s will go away.
hope this helps. will add more as it comes to me. i am home until mid feb/early march so have time.

cheers

jjw
Last edited by jjw on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Mad Mike
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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by Mad Mike » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:27 pm

gundogs wrote:I dunno. After the SHTF wouldn't the security guys want to be protecting their own family and property?
I envision lots of cops and military "abandoning their posts" & going home

This is the way I see it. :!:

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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by ineffableone » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:05 pm

Mad Mike wrote:
gundogs wrote:I dunno. After the SHTF wouldn't the security guys want to be protecting their own family and property?
I envision lots of cops and military "abandoning their posts" & going home

This is the way I see it. :!:
Yep pretty much.

But I could also see communities who do have the resources "hiring" security by offering them and their family a place inside the community. A work exchange program kind of thing. Maybe the professional security folks wouldn't be doing this, but I have even talked to folks in rural areas and set up this sort of concept for myself in the past. Offering to help with security and farm chores for a safe place to bug out to. Sadly I am not in that region anymore and don't have those same rural connections anymore. But if I do get friendly with some good rural folks in this area I would try setting up something similar again.
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Re: Private security during SHTF scenarios

Post by drop bear » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:03 am

gundogs wrote:I dunno. After the SHTF wouldn't the security guys want to be protecting their own family and property?
I envision lots of cops and military "abandoning their posts" & going home

Mabye better able to protect families if earning the cash.

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