Zombie Debt Collections

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Zombie Debt Collections

Post by Anianna » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:16 am

Debt collectors are desperate for money and are raising old debt from the dead. This can be stressful at the least and financially damaging at worst. Keep in mind that the debt might not even be yours and even if it is, they may not legally be able to come after you for it.

Check out this article, this one from MSNMoney. and this one from Forbes.
Also:
HowStuffWorks - Zombie Debt
How to Attack Zombie Debt

Lock and load, people. The debt zombies are here.
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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by iron_angel » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:32 am

I've had this happen to me. Fortunately, in my case, the original debt was to a lawyer (who I did finally pay, albeit late), and he was not happy with the collection agency. They dropped the matter and rescinded all further action, and refunded me the money that they basically shook me down for.

Lesson learned - keep receipts and confirmation numbers, and if someone comes after you for an illegitimate debt, fight the hell out of it. Chances are, you won't have to go to court. IANAL (or a judge), but even if you do, it's not unheard of for judges to make the agency pay your legal fees.
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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by phil_in_cs » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:38 am

This isn't a disaster, but it merits planning for. Iron_Angel's comments are solid.

Moving to CP&P
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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by Anianna » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:48 am

It feels pretty disastrous when it's happening to you. I don't mind the thread moved to where it will do the most good, though.

I once got my kids' annual physicals at one of those franchise type clinics. Annual physicals are covered by our insurance, but the clinic billed it as a sports school physical instead (they were in Kindergarten, 2nd, and 3rd grade at the time, so WTF?), which our insurance does not cover. I immediately got in contact with both the clinic and our insurance to get the matter resolved, but the clinic refused to bill it properly and chose to send the bill to collections instead. A simple correction would have gotten them their money, but they decided to do things the hard way. I sent everything I had been collecting in regards to the issue to the collections agency with a cease and desist letter, which they chose to ignore and kept sending me documentation that I owed the money. Then, everything just stopped and I haven't heard from them in two or three years now.

I'm waiting for this zombie to come at me. I'm still not paying it and if they come at me because they are desperate for the money I don't owe them, they aren't likely to waste money to take me to court over it.
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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by ninja-elbow » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Really look into your state's statute of limitations too. In Oregon it is 7 years. After the SoL the collection agency is... well... SOL. I've done this and it is for real.

I had an old Visa card from US Bank. In 2001, when I had lost another job and decided to start over again (and knew I would be broke for a few years) I decided to get rid of the credit card and checking account from US Bank as beng broke with a credit card and checking account was a thing I am not able to handle well. Anyways, paid off my credit card and closed it. Took all my loot out of the checking account and closed it. I failed at that though and there was still a balance that had not come in yet on the credit card and notification to me (as I moved soon after) failed to reach me.

This turned into a collection in 2009, 8 years later. A collection agency bought the debt and found me VIA CALLING MY LANDLORD (illegal BTW). The debt was not even on my credit report so I told them on the phone and via a certified letter "I do not owe that debt" (plus there was some legalize re the contacting of my landlord). I was sent a letter a week letter saying the account and debt were cancelled.
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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by Anianna » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:07 pm

Learning the laws about these things is definitely a good idea. Debt collectors frequently skirt or trample all over the law to get at you and that can be a benefit to you if you know the law and are willing to hold them accountable to it.
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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:13 pm

Here is a link to statue of limitation by state. It is important to note that different kinds of debt have different limitations to them. Some debt never goes away (student loans are one example).

http://credit.about.com/od/statuteoflim ... ection.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by Anianna » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:21 pm

With student loans, if you run into a problem with your lender, they are supposed to have a consumer advocate you can get in touch with to deal with them for you (with billing disputes, for example). Hospitals also have patient advocates who can mediate between you and the hospital's billing department should you run into problems with them. If you have a problem with any industry, look to see if there is an advocate. I know about student loan and hospital advocates because those are the ones I've had to deal with personally.
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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by raptor » Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:06 pm

I ran into this with a medical testing company and a discount my insurance company allowed but the medical testing company insisted on collecting. It was for about $100 and they reported it to the credit bureau which is when I picked it up.

I spent about 3 hours over several days trying to identify and resolve it. I finally got disgusted and simply paid it.

I was arguing with the group, threatening to sue and they said in effect "Go ahead sue. It will cost you $500 in filing fees and if we not oppose the suit and you get a summary judgement you will have paid $500 to settle a $100 fee. Good luck trying to enforce this judgement and collecting from us BTW. We have no legal presence in your state. If we oppose the suit then you will pay legal fees to fight this $100 matter. Oh and BTW were are in (some bum fuck Egypt county in another state) county; we have no legal presence in your area and our state requires personal service, so to serve us with the suit that you paid $500 to file, you will have to pay another $200 to have someone ride a donkey up to our mountain top to serve us....or you can pay the $100 "

I paid the $100 and swore revenge on their firstborn...and then forgot all about it until now. :D

I hate paying extortion but sometimes you have to pick your battles. If the amount had been higher I may have done something different. Sometimes it stinks but settling the matter can make more sense than fighting it. Obviously YMMV.

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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by williaty » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:21 am

I've got something like this hanging over my head. Old debt, they claim. Problem is that revolving debt (credit cards) has a SoL of 6 years in Ohio, which has expired. Written contracts have a SoL of 15 years. Credit card companies are trying to claim that, because you signed the initial credit card application, credit cards count as written contracts. In the entry-level judiciary, cases are going about 50:50 whether the judge buys the CC company's argument or not, so it's currently unclear what the SoL on credit card debt in Ohio actually is. The reality of the situation, of course, is that the CC company's legal fund is larger than mine. I'm in a holding pattern on it to see what the judicial system finally decides is going to be the reality in Ohio.

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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by livinitup » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:36 pm

oh god... i was hoping id never see this thread on this board.

ok....I was a collections manager for a very long time. I know all the tricks, laws etc. no i dont work in that field now and no you couldnt pay me enough to go back to it even though i was probably in the top 1% of successful collectors in the country (thats actually not saying a whole lot) Before calling me a blood sucker and heartless please be objective about this.

First and foremost I need to get this out of the way and its not going to popular...

IF you owe a bill.....Pay Your Bill... be honest and stop making excuses. You signed something saying you'd pay it so just pay it... if you cant, thats understandable, make some sort of arrangement with the creditor directly or do your best to never let your contact information get out and hide from them effectively until you can....I dont "blame" anyone for being in debt... it happens to everyone.

that being said....
Dont blame the creditor or the collector or use it as an excuse to not pay it... thats crap. You owe the bill... yes they're Aholes, yes they break laws... blah blah blah... thats a completely different matter altogether...it has nothing to do with you owing the bill and you're just using it as an excuse not to pay it.
pay the bill...and then if the collector breaks a law, go after them legally. However, getting your feelings hurt or someone yelling at you on the phone doesnt mean you magically no longer owe the bill.

Now to clear up a few things in the thread....

Statute of limitations is a myth... they'll come after and you they have every right to. No state law supersedes private financing contract (except between mortgage/property taxes)and even if there was a state law that did, your original contract that you signed waived your right to statue of limitations from a creditor collecting on you. I collected and successfully sued plenty of people on 10-20+ yr old bills... even in OH.

NOW...that being said...what you're referring to is the statute of limitations for credit reporting (they can only continue to actively report it for so long legally...doesnt mean it'll come off...you'll have to do that yourself)... but thats just from the original creditor....they can work around that by selling the debt to someone else... who can then turn around and report it for another 7-10 years and then if they cant collect on it sell it again, each new creditor can turn back the clock for as long as your state allows...etc etc. If the debt is legally owed and its worth going after, they'll go after it until its no longer profitable to do so, you're dead (lol) or bankrupt. Student loans and child support (I collected on both) are the only non-dischargable debt....everything else can be discharged in a chpt. 7.

Cease and desist letters stop calls, not letters...but most agencies will just send the account back to the creditor or try to sell it again unless its for a good amount or they have a lot of current information on you and your employer to make garnishing you easy..... and a cease and desist is a good way to motivate a creditor to sue you since you basically just drew a line in the sand with them.

To the one that had the agency saying they didnt have legal presence in your state... yes they do....or if they really dont, tell them to pound sand and report them to the AG. 3rd party collectors must not only be registered and licensed in any state the try to collect from, but there has to be some sort of formal business entity formed in that state in order to collect on 3rd party debt...which can be sued. You could also file a FDCPA complaint with the attorney general.... follow up in a couple months with a request to the credit reporting agencies to wipe that bill clean....done. (they wont fight it....its not worth it)

NO debt...student loan, revolving, installment or medical has any sort of requirement to provide you with an "advocate"....by signing a contract, agreement, or release you are then responsible for any and all fees incurred by said contract. Theres no requirement saying that they have to make accommodations to you...and they shouldn't have to ....its your responsibility. That being said... most hospitals have a "charity" program available that basically lets them write off your debt on their taxes as a loss if you're low income and can prove you'll never pay off the debt....if you're nice to them at least during the process... if not, someone might just get a burr up their butt and sue you out of spite....it doesnt take much to change your billing code from "working out an arrangement" to "send to legal dept."

Credit counselors are worse scum than bill collectors 99% of the time.... they charge you a fee to do the same thing you could do from your kitchen table...divide up your bills equally and send a check to each one of them....except credit counselors add one more creditor to that pie....them. When I had someone using the credit counselor thing on me I did my best to try and explain to them why they arent helping them, they cant stop me from suing, I dont have a "relationship" with them as they advertise... if they had too much of the CCCC kool-aid and refused to make agreeable payment terms....they got sued...and i got paid.

Ive been out of this industry for quite a while... and we collected on this type of "zombie debt" all the time when i was in it...lol my bread and butter was 5+ year old car debt....the debt that was left over AFTER a car had been repo'd and sold at auction...yes you really do owe that lol. this "zombie debt" is nothing new.

A lot of agencies are desperate for money nowadays. A lot of people say thats because of the economy... its not. Crappy economies are awesome for collectors...its technology that's killing collection agencies. In my collector days, most people still had a landline that was published. It wasnt illegal to call someone's neighbor to try to get a phone number. It wasnt illegal to call, have your kid say you're at the grocery store and for ME TO CALL THE GROCERY STORE TO FIND YOU (lol...yep I did that) Today, there are new privacy laws, next to no one has a landline, you cant just call 411 for the debtor's newest phone number like you used to be able to....so when the collector gets a new "account" he tried the phone number that you gave when opening the line of credit, its disconnected (most of the time) and now they have to resort to pretty costly or legal grey area ways of getting your contact information. Credit is also a lot harder to come by nowadays so pulling a credit report and getting your new information from the latest credit card or cell phone you bought on credit isnt as easy as it used to be.

the common tactic nowadays is for creditors to actually avoid these large call centers altogether and just go straight to selling off the debt or contracting an attorney to just sue from the getgo....it costs money to collect on something... phone calls and letters used to be a cheap way to collect... nowadays it isnt because its not as effective....they'd rather just sue and force you into a bankruptcy (so they can claim the loss on their taxes) or get the judgment so they can take your tax return or garnish your wages (depending on the state)

ok...now for the good stuff...and some redemption since Im probably coming off like an asshat with all the "its your responsibility" stuff. :)

if you have an old installment or credit card debt you really can settle it for pennies on the dollar....I'll show you how.

Save up about 30% of what you owe and call them with a few days left in the month (collectors make commission on anything over their quota they collect and the last day of the month resets their commission... so last days of the month are HUGE for them.) I settled a 130,000 bill on a repo'd yacht for 10 grand once on the last day of the month just because I knew that all of that was commission that id actually see on my paycheck in a week as opposed to hoping that id hit my quota the next month...basically meaning had the guy called me a day later with 10grand there wasnt a chance in hell id take it. The creditor is ok with it, im ok with it and my boss is ok with it because we all have goals that are due by the end of the month....you bet your ass im going to settle for 5-10% if it means im going to see an extra $500-$1000 on my check in a few days.

If you drop the emotions, yelling, threats etc etc and just talk to them like a person, a bill collector can be your biggest advocate... because they just want money...they dont really care about the actual bill or how much the creditor gets....its all about commissions. You both just want the paid as easily as possible, so negotiate a price and get it done and leave the drama out of it.

so.... take that 30% youve saved up, call them in the last couple of days and offer them 10%, they'll say no and counter with like 70 somewhere around there...it'll go back and forth... but eventually you'll want to set a bottom dollar and say something like "I got a little money from a relative... all the other creditors are taking XX% and there's $XX left for this...no more... I can either settle all this or take this money and file a chpt 7. Either way my credit is screwed but i'll be done with all this.... so do you want XX% or not?"

You should base your negotiations on how much the bill actually is... like for the yacht guy... it came out to like 5% or something ridiculous... if his bill was 1,000 instead of 100,000+ thered be no way id approve 5%....its not enough money... but 10 grand....well thats another story. So for bills less than $1000...35% or less is going to be a good deal....but i wouldnt expect to get a 5-20% deal unless the portion you're paying is significant.

They'll take the settlement... and if they dont ask for their REAL manager... asking for just a manager will get the guy sitting next to them (did it all the time)....if its the last few days of the month the manager will take it .... guarantee it....you might have to do the negotiating dance again with the manager but if its an old bill and its an actual collections agency collecting and not the actual creditor... they'll give you a hell of a deal in the last few days of the month... if you really want to wait to the last second...wait until like noon on the very last day of the month. its like dropping chum in shark infested water lol.

Now....fair warning... Ive heard more than a few reports of the creditors trying to come back and collect on the portion you thought was written off. This could be because the collector is shady or there was just a mixup...either way... before giving them a DIME....get that offer in writing. Faxed or overnighted...no email. Do not give them anything until you have the offer in writing. As far as how to pay it... do not give them your account info on the phone...trust me... I worked with over 3000 collectors in my time... these are not the people you want to be giving your personal account information to. I got more than one collector arrested for stealing account information. Go to a Western Union and do the quick collect. It's wired in minutes, its secure, its guaranteed....its bsically like handing them cash... there's a fee...but its worth it.

Also... if you're saving more than $600 (need to verify this since it may be old info) you COULD get a 1099c form from the creditor come tax time because technically saving anything more than a certain amount of money on a debt is considered earned income and you'll be taxed on it... but the money you're saving obviously makes it worth it.

Another tip...

Although I DO NOT advocate getting out of a bill just for the sake of getting out of it... you do have 30 days by law to contest the validity of any 3rd party debt. If you get a "this debt has been placed with XXXXX on XX/XX/XXXX for collections", write a letter to them (certified mail) and demand that the creditor prove the validity of the debt. If you really dont know where the debt came from (very possible if a company changed names or something) MAKE them PROVE you owe it...they have 30 days from when they get the letter...if they cant prove it by then the debt is null and void period... if they try to collect on it tell them they're in violation of the FDCPA (fair debt collections practices act)....file an incident report with the Attorney general to show that you did attempt to validate the debt and the creditor failed to respond, and then dispute the debt with the credit reporting agency. they have 90 days to take it off your report. That being said... if they DO prove the debt within 30 days....you need to be prepared to make an arrangement on it...they're not going to go to the effort of proving the debt and then just forget about it... they'll come after you and they have all your updated contact information from your letter.



Hope this was useful to a few people...now bring on the collector hate. :)

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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by raptor » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:40 pm

Great Post and great information. I agree if you have a valid debt you are responsible for that debt.

I would like to point out something though. Some debts do indeed have statute of limitations. However you are correct that most debts are governed by the debt instrument/contract and most consumer debt instruments are written to avoid the statute of limitations that do exist in some states.

One final note in my case the debt was generated by medical tests that were covered by insurance and provided by an "in network" provider. However, there was a specific carve out for charges that were "above and beyond normal and customary" charges. The insurance provided discounted the bill but the provider was under no obligation to accept this payment as full and final settlement of the charges.Thus they pursued me for the haircut the insurance provider gave them. They were legally able to do that.

I would note that medical bills are a very complex subject and they likely result in a lot of collection activity. If you see a sign that says "Our charges are higher than reasonable and customary charges" at a medical testing facility, that is the reason they have the sign so that when the insurance company discounts their bills they can pursue the clients for the difference.

http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/family/rea ... charge.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by Stercutus » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:45 pm

Let me hit some of the high points:
You signed something saying you'd pay it so just pay it... if you cant, thats understandable, make some sort of arrangement with the creditor directly or do your best to never let your contact information get out and hide from them effectively until you can....I dont "blame" anyone for being in debt... it happens to everyone.
that being said....
Dont blame the creditor or the collector or use it as an excuse to not pay it... thats crap. You owe the bill... yes they're Aholes, yes they break laws... blah blah blah... thats a completely different matter altogether...it has nothing to do with you owing the bill and you're just using it as an excuse not to pay it.


That is nice dear. When Time Warner sent me to collection for not paying my non-existent cable bill (Could not even get cable there as it was not available) and when Sprint tried to sue for a cell phone bill out of state that someone had gotten in my name with a different SSN I hadn't signed shit either time. Don't assume. Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.

People that owe money lie to the collectors all the time. As you note the bill collectors lie just as often. That is why I did not bother trying to talk to them either time.
NOW...that being said...what you're referring to is the statute of limitations for credit reporting (they can only continue to actively report it for so long legally...doesnt mean it'll come off...you'll have to do that yourself)... but thats just from the original creditor....they can work around that by selling the debt to someone else... who can then turn around and report it for another 7-10 years and then if they cant collect on it sell it again, each new creditor can turn back the clock for as long as your state allows..
Maybe. That could also be illegal depending upon the state. Also nearly everywhere does not allow the creditor to get a new suit or judgment. They can still pursue and sell off the bad debt at a badly discounted rates but the legal means to recover are pretty weak.

To the one that had the agency saying they didnt have legal presence in your state... yes they do....or if they really dont, tell them to pound sand and report them to the AG.
That is good advice but nothing will likely come of it.
Although I DO NOT advocate getting out of a bill just for the sake of getting out of it... you do have 30 days by law to contest the validity of any 3rd party debt. If you get a "this debt has been placed with XXXXX on XX/XX/XXXX for collections", write a letter to them (certified mail) and demand that the creditor prove the validity of the debt. If you really dont know where the debt came from (very possible if a company changed names or something) MAKE them PROVE you owe it...they have 30 days from when they get the letter...if they cant prove it by then the debt is null and void period... if they try to collect on it tell them they're in violation of the FDCPA (fair debt collections practices act)....file an incident report with the Attorney general to show that you did attempt to validate the debt and the creditor failed to respond, and then dispute the debt with the credit reporting agency.
More of the same. As you note most collectors lie for a living. These lapses tend to lead to more lapses in ethics. Unless someone is nailing their feet to the ground they will continue to hound you.
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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by raptor » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:15 pm

Nobody likes tax collectors or bill collectors ... until you need one. :wink:

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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by livinitup » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:23 pm

raptor wrote:Nobody likes tax collectors or bill collectors ... until you need one. :wink:
exactly lol

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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by livinitup » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:51 pm

People that owe money lie to the collectors all the time. As you note the bill collectors lie just as often. That is why I did not bother trying to talk to them either time.
neither would i... i wouldn't try to reason with someone who's sole job is to get you on the phone and get money from you. I'd just request they validate the bill by mail (as per fdcpa law) and explain that it's not mine (in writing)...and would probably include a cease and desist just to avoid getting calls in case they find my number. If someone opened a bill in my name id also file a police report.

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Re: Zombie Debt Collections

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:23 am

and would probably include a cease and desist just to avoid getting calls in case they find my number.
Those incidents were well more than a decade ago but something good did come of it. I got rid of my land line and have not had one since. The only people that were calling us on the land line at that point were telemarketers and bill collectors for our non-existent debt.

The Sprint one was easily resolved when I went to a Sprint store and they were able to get me through to the correct billing department. The bill was huge too; the guy at the store showed it to me on the computer. It looked like a drug dealer or someone with thousands of friends had run the line.

The Time Warner bill kept popping up for about a year afterwards. I tried to resolve it on the phone but they kept playing the "supervisor game". That one actually did require a letter.
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