Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

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Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Maast » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:15 pm

The reason this is in CP&P vs Transportation is that is going to take a HELL of a lot of prep to do this on your own.

In a post SHTF environment people will still need to get around, most people won’t have the resources to keep horses – even if they could get their hands on one.

A bicycle will be fine for anything within a couple miles (sure beats walking) but if you need to cover a lot of ground and/or need to move around a lot faster you’ll need something with a motor. Or if you’re just too damn old/beat up to have much pedal power left in you.

Motorized bicycles (MB) fit the bill perfectly. They’re legal as long as you keep below 50cc and 30MPH, in many states you have to rig them up as a moped (lights, etc) and license it. The only disadvantage is they’re loud, 2 strokes much more than 4 strokes, and need a very good add-on muffler and intake systems to quiet them down.

Why do a MB instead of a moped/scooter? Tire size – you can take a MB with mountain bike tires almost anywhere (legality varies per state). Mopeds/scooters are pretty much for paved roads only. I'm working on converting a Genesis Onyx 29" cruiser as a new hobby.

A MB conversion is also cheaper than buying a moped/scooter. A basic 2 stroke kit goes for $200, a 4 stroke kit w/ a Chinese 4 stroke for about $350 and to use a Honda 4 stroke is about $450. A moped with a crappy chimart motor starts at about $600.

The little Huasheng 4 strokes are cheap ($150 or so) and surprisingly durable, and could have a thousand applications in a long term post-SHTF. If you think about it, 2.5HP is really a hell of a lot of potential work. The Honda GHX50s are bullet proof and will run almost forever. Both are very simple mechanically and anybody can maintain them with just a few spare parts.

The cool thing is on gasoline they can do 40MPH & get 150-200 MPG using small 2.5 – 3 HP 49cc 4 stroke engines like the Titan XC50 (aka Huasheng F142) or Honda GHX50, there are also less expensive 2 stoke engines available but they don’t have near the longevity of the 4 strokes or the MPG, and you have to mix oil and gasoline.

There are also 1.6HP 35cc versions of the above engines and they get even better MPG, though not as much power/top-end & would have to be geared lower.

I don’t know about you, but doing more than 30MPH on a bicycle doesn’t sound appealing, and it’d have to be a well made bicycle so it doesn’t come apart when under power.

Both types can be modified to run on ethanol, though you’ll take a 30-45% hit on MPG and lose about 10% of horsepower.
Ethanol conversion involves drilling out the carb jets, advancing the timing (a lot), installing a “hot” spark plug, changing out some hoses and gaskets, and corrosion proofing the carb via electroplating a nickel coating.

Ethanol doesn’t mix with oil at all so if you have a 2 stroke you have to use a synthetic ester based oil, or castor oil.

Finding fuel for a car or truck is going to be a problem after a very short while. Post-SHTF fuel is going to be extremely hard to find – unless you make your own.

IMO The only liquid fuels readily available (but in small amounts) will be ethanol or methanol, which can make out of fermented sugar/starch & distillation (ethanol), or destructive distillation of wood (methanol). From what I understand methanol is extremely corrosive to aluminum and shouldn’t be used in anything that isn’t all steel.
Ethanol is also somewhat corrosive to aluminum but it can be handled by a nickel coating, if you can find (or make) a steel carb for your engine you’re golden, otherwise you’re going to have to corrosion proof the stock one.
Biodiesel will also be available but it much smaller amounts as it takes lye, methanol, fats/oils and a good bit of equipment and knowhow to make. Lye and methanol are easily producible by an individual but there will be so many steps to producing biodiesel, difficulty obtaining veggie oils, and purifying the starter ingredients I don’t think it’ll be very common.

If you think you’re just going to set up a brewery and a still without ever having done it ahead of time you’ll fail. A simple moonshiners pot-and-coil still doesn’t make fuel; it makes moonshine, there’s WAY too much water still in it. You’d need to do 5 passes through a coil still to get close to fuel quality – and use a hell of a lot of burning wood to do it, and end up with only half of the available ethanol in the fermented mash.

To make fuel you need to construct a reflux tower still, that’ll get you to 95% pure ethanol in one run, and then afterwards run it through a desiccant bed if you’re going to mix it with gasoline, ethanol needs to be DRY to mix with gasoline or it separates out.
The advantage of E90 (90% ethanol, 10% gasoline) is that it ignites and burns better & requires less modification to run.

Pure ethanol is harder than hell to KEEP dry since it sucks up water from the air almost instantly. However 95% pure is good enough to use as a straight motor fuel. Making ethanol fuel is legal in all 50 states if you go get a free BATFE permit, it has to be denatured (undrinkable) though.

Starch doesn’t ferment, it has to be turned into sugars first (saccharification). To make the mash you’ll have to know how to turn starch into fermentable sugars, and how to produce amylase (the enzyme that turns starch into sugar) without having a handy brewing store to buy from. Basically it involves having a hell of a lot of Beano stashed, or using sulphuric acid, or knowing how to sprout grains and which grains to use.

And of course you’ll need to have all the gear on hand to do it. There’ll be no running down to the brewing store.

Below is a few links to introduce you to the subject of home distillation and engine conversion.

http://www.stilltutorial.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.boozelover.com/2008/08/sprou ... -part.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... meCh1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://chestofbooks.com/food/beverages/ ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/farmmgt/05010.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... drane.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW, barley sprouts have more amylase enzyme than most, its why its used in making beer.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Tater Raider » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:24 pm

I'd rather go electric motorized bicycle - there's a whole lot less support involved and you can generate electricity using regenerative braking if you are going with an electric hub and the land requirements are a whole lot less.

In my AO bicycles, motorized or not, are a device while a moped is a vehicle, meaning you can take a motorized bicycle on a bike trail that prohibits motorized vehicles pre-SHTF. This makes for a great way to work out the bugs and get used to the system.

Maintenance runs less on an electric, noise is reduced, and there's less to go wrong on an electric motor. In a ZPAW you an take a roll-up solar panel with you to extend the battery, just drape over your panniers.

The disadvantage v. 2-stroke motor is initial cost and being unable to drink the fuel if you're brewing your own ethanol.

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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Maast » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:03 pm

Tater Raider wrote:I'd rather go electric motorized bicycle - there's a whole lot less support involved and you can generate electricity using regenerative braking if you are going with an electric hub and the land requirements are a whole lot less.
In my AO bicycles, motorized or not, are a device while a moped is a vehicle, meaning you can take a motorized bicycle on a bike trail that prohibits motorized vehicles pre-SHTF. This makes for a great way to work out the bugs and get used to the system.
Maintenance runs less on an electric, noise is reduced, and there's less to go wrong on an electric motor. In a ZPAW you an take a roll-up solar panel with you to extend the battery, just drape over your panniers.
The disadvantage v. 2-stroke motor is initial cost and being unable to drink the fuel if you're brewing your own ethanol.
For me the big disadvantage for an electric would be range, battery weight, and battery lifespan. Batteries just dont have the energy density yet, and they have a limited number of charge/discharge cycles.

Unless you want to add a small 4 stroke generator to keep the batteries charged up. Homebrew hybrid. Lot of extra weight to be hauling around though.

In my AO if it has a liquid fueled motor it's considered a vehicle and has to be licensed and the operator has to have a drivers license. However electric bicycles (while nominally limited to 20mph) dont have the licensing requirements.

I read on one of the MB forums that one of my fellow Washingtonians did the generator/electric motor route. He lost his drivers license because he's an epileptic and was shattered when they recently instigated the liquid-fueled-is-a-vehicle law and he didnt have any other means to get to work. He said he could tell when an attack was coming on so he could stop the bike and lay down before it hit. I dunno - I'm of two minds about that...
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Tater Raider » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:07 pm

Weight reduction and range solution: put an emotor on the cranks and you can use a smaller motor. You lose regenerative braking but a 200W motor will suck a lot less juice than a 750w motor. It also makes it so that you have to pedal to use the motor.

Entending range and refueling while using the bicycle for a bugging out:

Image
Recharging electronics...


Image
Rear hub motor with solar charger on trailer and batteries are on the bike, that's 100 liters of cargo space in the trailer.


Image
Battery pack is by the seat post, motor is over the front wheel - still a short range deal here though.



Also, going this route means that, in Washington State at least, it's not a vehicle plus it gives you options an ethanol motor doesn't have.

Pre-ZPAW, pick your poison. Bugging out pre-SHTF, I'd go the electric route personally. Post-SHTF the emotor wins, hands down, IMO, but YMMV.



EtA: Check this eBike out!

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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Halfapint » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:21 pm

Maast that was some GREAT information and also being from Washington it was some info I did not know about WA. Personally though I don't know if I'd want the noise of an internal combustion engine in a PAW world.... especially in a PAW con Zombies no thanks. But getting to a BOL quickly through non traditional routes where cars/trucks cant go I think the internal combustion ethanol motor would be great!Could haul a lot of gear and can brew your own fuel is a very attractive idea.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by kwailo » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:59 pm

I brew beer now, so plan to make alcohol for fuel in a PAW, in fact, I would think most brewers would. While I don't currently have a still, I do have the materials on hand that I could build one, and I have helped run one a few times.

Nickle plate your parts now though Maast, it will be hard to find someone to do it after the SHTF.

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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Ableto » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:20 pm

Im happy with my scooter. I have a 2009 49cc Aprilia SR50 factory scooter. Fuel injected, liquid cooled, disc breaks on the front and rear wheels. Digital readout and computer controled. restricted straight out the box was able to go 45mph, unrestricted up to 55mph and more with a aftermarket pipe and rollers.. It holds 1.7 gallons of fuel and can go up to 75-85 mpg on that one tank of gas.

Its my get out of town vehicle of choice if my car was not able to do what i want. Like get stuck in major traffic jams.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by TacAir » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:13 am

Image

Currently listed here on CL - 600 USD.

Gas motors for conversion 150 USD, electric hubs for conversion 340 USD.
http://www.bikeberry.com/gas-engine-kit ... QgodHzEANQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image
Or just buy a Whizzer!

Note springs on seat and shocks on front end. The Cl special will cost you a kidney....or kill you.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Tater Raider » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:40 am

IceMyst wrote:...getting to a BOL quickly through non traditional routes where cars/trucks cant go I think the internal combustion ethanol motor would be great!
That I completely agree with and if you wanna do a 2-stroke then more power to you (pun not intended).

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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Maast » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:04 am

TacAir wrote:Note springs on seat and shocks on front end. The Cl special will cost you a kidney....or kill you.
Which is why I bought the front forks of a Genesis 29" mountain bike and am transplanting them to my Onyx 29". They have an integrated shock absorber. I'm also adding V brakes front and back, replacing the seat, adding lighting and 3 coils to utilize the magneto magnet as a onboard power source (and rectifiers, a buck/boost DC-DC converter/voltage stabilizer, and a monster 4700uf capacitor). The fuel tanks that come with the kit look like crap so I'm also adding a small motorcycle tunnel gas tank to give me 2.3 gallons of fuel.

And I plan on painting it OD green with WWII Army marking to make it resemble the WWII Royal Enfield flying flea utility motorcycle. Heh, anything worth doing is worth overdoing :-)

My first motor is going to be a Super Titan XC50S, after a bit I'll be upgrading to the Honda motor and keeping the Titan as a spare. I'm also planning on buying a few of the Huescheng 142Fs as backups/GP motors.

BTW, the CL bike is a total ripoff, its got the chimart crappy transmission and a low-end 2 stroke.

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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Viper shtf » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:18 pm

This thread is great.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by velojym » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:42 pm

Something like a Stokemonkey, on the electric side, seems to be a pretty elegant idea. It only works when you pedal, enhancing your pedaling rather than replacing it.
With a gas engine, especially some of the really low power models often strapped onto bicycles, I think that if one was to select a proper gear and pedal, it would help fuel economy, add your 1/4hp or so, and offer a bit of exercise. The latter would be especially important in the even that your power supply falls flat. It won't do to have been just riding on the engine (or motor) all the time and lack the fitness to continue on very well.

If you're building a bike and either have the budget (or scrounging ability) I'd go with some downhill/freeride components. The Truvativ Hussefelt crankset on my Paratrooper is nicely stiff, and with the duty it was designed to endure, shouldn't ever give me trouble in normal trail use or in a bugout.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Florida_Tony » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:25 pm

One of these:

Image

http://www.organictransit.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Halfapint » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:28 pm

Maast are you going to be posting pics of your build? I am very interested to see your build come along. anyways that last thing that Florida just posted... LOLWTF? :clap:
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Ableto » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:04 pm

Florida_Tony wrote:One of these:

Image

http://www.organictransit.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Looks like a rolldsconardly...Rolls down one hill, and could hardly get up the next.

here are many conversion kits for gas/alternate fuels/electric out there just search the internet to find them all.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by velojym » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:33 pm

Especially for getting around town... an electric motor or small gas (I'd go with a 125cc or so) engine on that Rollsconardly would be pretty nifty. Heck, I'd do one up with a little pickup bed.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Tater Raider » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:03 am

Stokemonkey has temporarily stopped production due to increasing costs. They are redesigning the motor and sourcing a new supplier.

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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by movingchicane » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:03 pm

Steven Harris is really big into making ethanol legally. I've been thinking about grabbing one of his kits and buying a cheap HF generator to mess around with. Legal fuel production is a good skill to have pre and post AW
Link http://imakemygas.com/ His segments on The Survival Podcast are some of my favorites.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Maast » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:50 pm

I'm returning the Onyx 29 and going with the Genesis Astra 29, same frame just without the crappy coaster (reverse pedaling) brakes, the big thing is that it comes with a 7 speed gearset instead of just single speed. It only comes in a polished aluminum finish but thats okay.
What I really want is just the frame, wheels and the gearset. Getting rid of the crappy (and unreliable) coaster brakes and associated bearings is a happy bonus.

Sure I'll post pics, going to be a long term build though.

After surface prep I'll be painting it with SEM self etching primer and Epifane 2 part linear polyurethane, RAL color 6003 (military green). An epoxy paint will degrade over time with UV exposure, and a clear coat wouldnt look right.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Maast » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:42 pm

movingchicane wrote:Steven Harris is really big into making ethanol legally. I've been thinking about grabbing one of his kits and buying a cheap HF generator to mess around with. Legal fuel production is a good skill to have pre and post AW
Link http://imakemygas.com/ His segments on The Survival Podcast are some of my favorites.
Thats a TERRIBLE way to make ethanol, he's using just sugar and yeast. How the hell does he expect people to get their hands on mass quantities of sugar after a SHTF event.

And he's horribly overcharging on the individual parts and pieces, bordering on scam - level.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by movingchicane » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:48 pm

Maast wrote:
movingchicane wrote:Steven Harris is really big into making ethanol legally. I've been thinking about grabbing one of his kits and buying a cheap HF generator to mess around with. Legal fuel production is a good skill to have pre and post AW
Link http://imakemygas.com/ His segments on The Survival Podcast are some of my favorites.
Thats a TERRIBLE way to make ethanol, he's using just sugar and yeast. How the hell does he expect people to get their hands on mass quantities of sugar after a SHTF event.

And he's horribly overcharging on the individual parts and pieces, bordering on scam - level.
That's the quick start kit so people can easily see results. He goes into detail on scavenging free things and breaking it down into sugar. Sure it would be a lot cheaper to build your own still, it just all comes down to how much work you want to put into it.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by ZombieKraft » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:34 pm

biodiesel is a better route. can be made from algae. made from food grease. sewage grease..... It has a lot more energy per gallon. More than gasoline even. yada yada..... current ethanol technology only survives thanks to political votes and subsidies for the corn industry. its a terrible fuel pre and post paw. Biotech companies are working on cellulosic ethanol but thats a ways off.

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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by Maast » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:44 pm

Update

It turns out that a coating of thinned out "seal all" will protect aluminum and brass from ethanol. Heck of a lot easier to do than electroplating. Requires very very good surface prep though.

I've been digging through the go cart forums where they often convert their lawnmower engines to run on ethanol, huge wealth of information there for small engine repair and modification.

Also, this site http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has more concentrated information on making ethanol and running engines on it than any of the others that I've found.
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Re: Motorized bicycles running on ethanol post-SHTF

Post by MacAttack » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:03 pm

Why not plan ahead and just get a small 10 hp diesel engine and put it on a small dirt bike? It might not be fast but it will run until the alien overlords land.

Alcohol sucks butt as a fuel source in a motor.


Plus I would rather eat what you alcohol proponents are using to make fuel.

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