The Dusty Rose Project - '11 JK w/ Product Reviews

[Tater Raider]

Edited: Please read the entire thread before posting please as I am updating the changes to the plan in the thread and not editing the OP. My hope is that as the plan evolves - and purchases made - that the decission process inspires, or at least gets you thinking about your own BOV plans and how well they fit you personally. Some of my stuff is a bit off the wall but I do go into detail as to why in most cases.

The following is a list of 5 vehicles that are my plan for my personal BOV. Yes, I said 1 BOV made of 5 vehicles for just 1 guy living alone.

The cost to start is anticipated to be around $30k and I plan to pay cash so this is a multi-year plan but I began saving for the canoe today and plan to buy it at the end of summer when clearance pricing hits.

Prices do not include mods/builds/restorations, just getting the raw vehicles.

'97-'06 Jeep Wrangler: $6,000-$19,000 (without diesel conversion)
M416 ¼t Jeep Trailer (US Army Surplus): $1,500 + restoration/modification costs
M149 400 gal. Water Buffalo: $1,500 + restoration/modification costs
Hase Kettweisel Recumbent Trike: $3,500 and up (believe you me I mean and UP...)
14'-16' Canoe: $500-$2,500

This adds up to around $30k if I tend towards higher end, better quality items, though I can do this for a lot less and I just might try to except for the Hase and Jeep.

Explanation on why these vehicles:

Jeep is self-explanitory (ditto the diesel conversion). If it isn't...
BEGONE! I DON'T BELIEVE IN YOU!

M149 will be turned into a DIY diesel tank used for emergencies only (provided I can find a way to legally make it so). I will refuel the Jeep from it. At 30 mpg this will give me about 12,000 miles between refills. I should be able to bug out to Alaska from Florida if needs be with that.

M416 is a nice 500 pound capacity off-road trailer that floats and will carry the vehicle INCH kit and will be pulled behind the M149 where legal in an INCH. Doubles as vehicle support when I go off-roading.

If I have to abandon this kit, the Trike with canoe on trailer, gear in canoe becomes my PAW HPV go-anywhere, do anything vehicle. I come to a river with a bridge out, bike and trailer go on top of gear in canoe and I paddle accross.

If I'm willing to run risks of breakdowns and what-not on the Jeep and go low-end on the trike I can do this for $15k or so and put the other $15k into mods.

This is what I've been putting a couple hours of thought into every day for the past 3 or so weeks and have decided is the best bet for me. Loads of flexability in this and the Jeep carries/pulls all in base bug-out configuration.

Also just priced cheap canoes at my local Mills Fleet Farm and looks like a paddle, life jacket, light kit, and canoe could run me right at $500 for a 14' job.

I got asked if Jeep even makes a diesel. The answer is yes, the Wrangler is made with a diesel motor and that diesel Wrangler is sold world-wide, just not in the United States. The planned conversion is a 4BT.

Towing triples (2 trailers) is legal in my state and the state I am moving to, but this is a state by state issue here in the US and you will have to check local listings to see if you can do this. If I end up traveling through a state it's not legal in I woill move 1 trailer at a time 100 miles at a time in a leap-frog deal until I get through there. It's really no worse than dealing with CCW trip planning.

I hope this helps and/or inspires someone.

[Oneswunk]

That's a monster of a plan and a lot of work and money.
Good luck. I still say a XJ would be better but I'm a dick like that.

[Tater Raider]

It's definately a different strokes for different folks kind of thing. I love the YJ, you love the XJ, and we can both say ours is better than yours when we are done with them (but are we really ever done with the build/mods?).

Both surplus trailers and Jeep will run identical tires, and that's going to be a bit of a pain to make happen, but it simplifies a lot if a breakdown happens.

[velojym]

http://www.folbot.com/

These folks might have something you could use, and it oughta have a much smaller profile than a canoe like my Old Towne while being transported.

Fully loaded, I'd definitely run a few mileage tests before relying on a particular number. 30 sounds great, and is certainly doable in a diesel, but your rig sounds like it'll be fairly heavy, as well as draggy. It'll still beat my Trailblazer with a full load, though.

[ZombieSoldier01]

sounds like a good plan, but if i understand this right, you want to make the jeep a diesel and use it to tow 2 trailers at the same time... do you realize how heavy that water buffalo is? you will easily exceed the GWVR of the jeep with that water buffalo. when taking that into account its not just the leaf springs/ coils and frame that you are risking breakage, but also your weak oem axles dana 35's are not strong trust me... make sure you have a minimum of dana 44's under there, but recommend upgrading to dana 60's.

as far as the diesel jeep is planning to soon release the 4cylinder diesel that is currently offered in export as a crate motor. i would personally look for a "rubicon" wrangler, as they were built a lot more ruggedly then a standard jeep wrangler then slip that diesel in it.

but my vote would be to buy a CUCV, with the diesel then upgrade the motor, or get a bronco and swap in a powerstroke or a cummins.. but thats just me..

[Tater Raider]

The frame will have to be beefed up a bit because of the motor, ditto the front suspension. Tow rating on a stock Jeep Wrangler is 1t, which is fine for the M416. That water buffalo, loaded, is 6,600 pounds which blows that right out of the water, so rear suspension will have to get some attention too. The entire drivetrain will end up replaced when the conversion is done, just one piece at a time. The diesel going in is going to get worked over too, to wring some killer torque numbers out of it. Why? Why not?

I think this will work.

In the meantime, I can get the water buffalo and tow it empty without an issue I think. Might be a bit close but...

[knight_308]

If you're going through all that, why not a deuce instead of the Wrangler?

[Tater Raider]

Can't see driving a deuce to the corner market to get a gallon of milk. I considered it, and I considered a 1t pickup. I still may end up with the pickup but...

Something in me wants to see a Cummins badge on a Jeep that I hold the title on. Might be silly but sometimes the silly things are the best.

Usually they are a nightmare so I'm keeping the pickup in the back of my mind.

EtA: After sleeping on it I'm looking at the pickup again. It would replace the Jeep and the M416 Cargo Trailer at a higher cost but would probably do better overall. You guys have given me great feedback and I appreciate it.

[Beanhead]

I think driving around during TSHTF with 400 gallons of fuel is not a good idea.

A standard 2 wheel bicycle will give you a lot more options for 1. backwoods trails, 2. parts interchangability with other bikes (how many recumbant tricycles will be on the road), 3. weight- you can toss a regular bike on your shoulders and run with it where you can't bike then hop back on when you get some trail, 4. price- A US made Cannondale will be much much cheaper and you're still getting a top quality bike, then use the savings to purchase other preps, like a storage unit to cache gas.

Maybe go with a kayak instead of a canoe. A canoe, especially a loaded down canoe, can be a bitch to turn by yourself, if you need extra storage capacity on the kayak, you can get an outrigger. A cheap kayak is just as good as a canoe and just like with the bicycle you'll save space and weight.

[JTNieman]

I think driving around during TSHTF with 400 gallons of fuel is not a good idea.

A standard 2 wheel bicycle will give you a lot more options

...He's planning a transportation vehicle that is used to tow a shit load of gear, has capacity for 12,000 miles of travel, and you say "no, you need a bicycle" ?

Great advice, dude.

[velojym]

I think driving around during TSHTF with 400 gallons of fuel is not a good idea.

A standard 2 wheel bicycle will give you a lot more options

...He's planning a transportation vehicle that is used to tow a shit load of gear, has capacity for 12,000 miles of travel, and you say "no, you need a bicycle" ?

Great advice, dude.

In the end, the only real answer is "It depends".

If I can get out with a rugged cargo vehicle, my bicycle will be an escape-pod in case the main truck is disabled. If vehicular travel is not an option, I want to know I have the experience, training, and fitness to make the bicycle/trailer my primary BOV.
Flexibility is your greatest tool, and being able to use *part* of your BOV setup if necessary would be far superior to having a set-in-stone solution that will do you no good at all.

[Beanhead]

I think driving around during TSHTF with 400 gallons of fuel is not a good idea.

A standard 2 wheel bicycle will give you a lot more options

...He's planning a transportation vehicle that is used to tow a shit load of gear, has capacity for 12,000 miles of travel, and you say "no, you need a bicycle" ?

Great advice, dude.

Um, yeah, I understand that....He's talking about a multiple layered BOV plan, I'm just offering my opinion on a few of those layers. I'm not suggesting he abandoned a jeep for a bicycle.

He wants to go with a modded jeep for a bugout vehicle that's a pretty standard idea, and I didn't even comment on that. I'm just questioning the use of a canoe and recumbant trike instead of a more conventional bicycle and a kayak instead of a canoe.

[JTNieman]

I think driving around during TSHTF with 400 gallons of fuel is not a good idea.

A standard 2 wheel bicycle will give you a lot more options

...He's planning a transportation vehicle that is used to tow a shit load of gear, has capacity for 12,000 miles of travel, and you say "no, you need a bicycle" ?

Great advice, dude.

Um, yeah, I understand that....He's talking about a multiple layered BOV plan, I'm just offering my opinion on a few of those layers. I'm not suggesting he abandoned a jeep for a bicycle.

He wants to go with a modded jeep for a bugout vehicle that's a pretty standard idea, and I didn't even comment on that. I'm just questioning the use of a canoe and recumbant trike instead of a more conventional bicycle and a kayak instead of a canoe.

Ok I can see that. I saw "400 gallons of gas = bad... bike = good" and thought you were advocating replacement, not just an addition. nm then.

[badmoon Actual]

Hase Kettweisel Recumbent Trike seems a bit over the top unless you have some other reason for it. I standard bike would be easier to hide and carry in the bush. For less than $1,000 you could get set up with a bike and trailer. I paid like $500 for my Trek Rocket a few years back and only had to replace a tire and tube.

This plan seems good but there is always the what if the roads are block, and this set up would be a big target. Sound more like a way to travel cross country than really being able to bug out. I see too many thing getting in the way, going off road would be changeling, you might get look at as military with this gear etc.

Just trying to point out possible flaws in the plan, not shoot it down.

[Beanhead]

I think driving around during TSHTF with 400 gallons of fuel is not a good idea.

A standard 2 wheel bicycle will give you a lot more options

...He's planning a transportation vehicle that is used to tow a shit load of gear, has capacity for 12,000 miles of travel, and you say "no, you need a bicycle" ?

Great advice, dude.

Um, yeah, I understand that....He's talking about a multiple layered BOV plan, I'm just offering my opinion on a few of those layers. I'm not suggesting he abandoned a jeep for a bicycle.

He wants to go with a modded jeep for a bugout vehicle that's a pretty standard idea, and I didn't even comment on that. I'm just questioning the use of a canoe and recumbant trike instead of a more conventional bicycle and a kayak instead of a canoe.

Ok I can see that. I saw "400 gallons of gas = bad... bike = good" and thought you were advocating replacement, not just an addition. nm then.

I don't think carrying that much fuel is a good idea. I would rather cache fuel in hidden areas along various bugout routes, that's a lot of work and upkeep though.

[Tater Raider]

Revamp:

Jeep and M416 is replaced by Ford F-350 diesel. Now I have a water buffalo loaded with fuel and no worries of tow vehicle failure/towing 2 trailers. I still want a Jeep but the Ford beats it, hands down, for what I want to do with it. The choice, given what I want the vehicle to do, is obvious.

M149 water buffalo stays, even if I put install a cross-bed fuel tank in the pickup. I can use it as a home storage for BioDiesel if nothing else and that alone is worth something to me.

Recumbent Tricycle vs. Upright Bicycle:

A trike costs more, weighs more, and is slower - I'll grant that in a heartbeat. It's also far more comfortable for me and can go very slow without having balance issues, which I tend to do under a load going uphill. I can even stop on an uphill, take a breather, and then go on without unclipping my feet from the pedals. The bike is lighter weight and faster but more uncomfortable. Going uphill with 100 lbs. of newspapers on my bike and in my bike trailer is a pain, even gradual hills.

If I have to spend days on end in the saddle, I'd rather be in a recliner. Given the slowness of uphills that decides trike over recumbent bike. Despite the cost that's the goal, though an upright trike is in the works as a work vehicle (and stand-in for the recumbent until it is bought).

I am considering strongly the Greenspeed Anura as I question the additional cost of the Hase Kettwiesel being worth it's apparent advantages.

Canoe vs. Kayak:

I'm experienced in a canoe, even having done a trip in one in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area. I have never even tried to paddle a kayak. To me, a canoe is the minivan of the paddle boats in its versatility with cargo (like the trcycle) and/or passengers. Given I might want to go fishing with my brother and niece and nephews, the canoe is the hands down winner here.

Updated plan:

• Primary:
  Ford F-350 4x4 diesel w/ extended cab and 8' bed
  M149 Water Buffalo used for fuel transport
• Secondary (carried as load until primary is abandoned):
  Recumbent Tricycle, type unknown, delta wheel configuration preferred
  Canoe

This retains the layered approach, gives me a stupid range for the primary (estimated 8,000 miles + what is in the truck's tanks) with usable off-road capability, and total go anywhere capacity, literally, in the backup configuration. As far as BOV plans go, I'm fairly happy with this.

I want to thank my brother and all of you here for listening to my ideas and being honest in your comments and opinions. Without that, the weak spots would not have been exposed to where I could see them. Without you guys, I would not have been able to honestly evaluate what I expected from my vehicles.

[eugene]

As someone else said two trailers is a lot of weight, not even counting the handling issues with trailers and multiple trailers just that much weight and rolling resistance from the tires will cut your 30mpg down to 20. Another slight issue is you can't legally put diesel in a container that wasn't designed for it in most states, i.e. not in a gas/tank can or water can/tank. No one may ever notice but say someone one rear ends you and it leaks then hazmat gets called and you get a nice big fine for carrying in the wrong type of container.
Can you get just the cargo trailer and find a rectangle shaped tank that will fit inside the cargo trailer, or even lift the cargo box and put it on top of a tank, I've seen ones that are made to be installed in the bed of a truck.

Why a trike instead of a two wheeled bike? Could go with a mountain bike for much less $and be able to go off in the woods where the jeep can't fit.

I've seen people on the bike forums who do tow a canoe/kayak behind a bike so that idea is sound, however I posted the other half before and no one yet (and some of these are car-free people who move everything they own with bikes) has come up with an answer to carrying a bike on a canoe. You have the weight issue which going to a two person canoe should solve but then the high CG balance issue. A folding bike may work best there. Then fitting the trailer used to carry the canoe on top of the canoe. That would be even worse with a trike.

I didn't see the update.

Couple minor things. extended cab 8' bed is a long truck. I have an extended cab 6' bed and am still longer than most of the vehicles in the parking lot and it does get a little tight on off road too. I'd stay as short as possible, if there is requirement for the 8' bed then consider the 6', you can always open the tailgate and hang stuff off the back to still keep the wheelbase more manageable.

[meatshieldChris]

I like the truck idea better too. A vehicle designed for a load typically handles it better than one upgraded to handle it.

Also, the reason for the tow rating the jeep has might not be strength related at all...it's a short wheelbase vehicle, and stopping a big load can push you around more than long wheelbase vehicles. The VW Iltis is a good (but relatively unknown, I'm just familliar with it) example. It's only rated to tow about 1600 lbs without trailer brakes on the road, even though the frame, drivetrain, and gearing can drag wwaaayyy more than that, because the wheelbase is only 80 inches and has quite tall legs for that wheelbase, and only weighs 2800 lbs itself.

[Tater Raider]

Couple minor things. extended cab 8' bed is a long truck. I have an extended cab 6' bed and am still longer than most of the vehicles in the parking lot and it does get a little tight on off road too. I'd stay as short as possible, if there is requirement for the 8' bed then consider the 6', you can always open the tailgate and hang stuff off the back to still keep the wheelbase more manageable.

The crossbed fuel tank I plan to install will take up the first 2' of the bed so a shortbed becomes the next best thing to useless at 4-4½' with the gate up.

I did see a crew cab with an 8' bed today and decided that it was way, way too big of a truck for my needs. I may even consider a regular cab if the price is right when the time comes, but I would prefer an extended cab if possible.

I've seen people on the bike forums who do tow a canoe/kayak behind a bike so that idea is sound, however I posted the other half before and no one yet (and some of these are car-free people who move everything they own with bikes) has come up with an answer to carrying a bike on a canoe. You have the weight issue which going to a two person canoe should solve but then the high CG balance issue. A folding bike may work best there. Then fitting the trailer used to carry the canoe on top of the canoe. That would be even worse with a trike.

The trailer can go in the canoe. I'm going to modify one I already have to use as a dolly, which will disassemble easily, and then make a hitch that attaches to the bow and 1st thwart to the bike proper. The rear of the trike may not fit into the boat, or it may depending on the beam midships. Either way I do not plan to shoot rapids with it.

I may have to build my own trailer though as the weight of the boat + gear is likely to be around 150 lbs+. More likely edging 200lbs. at first as cheap canoes, like the one I am purchasing next month definately is, are heavy. The canoe alone tips the scales at 83lbs. dry weight. Toss in a pair of paddles, vest, anchor, and trailer and hitch and it is easily 100 lbs. by itself.

Yes, my newspaper route is my fitness plan, so I'm used to the weight (that don't mean I like it, just that I'm used to it) though I will not be setting land-speed records.

Another slight issue is you can't legally put diesel in a container that wasn't designed for it in most states, i.e. not in a gas/tank can or water can/tank. No one may ever notice but say someone one rear ends you and it leaks then hazmat gets called and you get a nice big fine for carrying in the wrong type of container.

I will have to look into the rules on HAZMAT with transporting that amount of fuel in a trailer. The truck will not be an issue as they are all fuel tanks proper. Perhaps I could use the frame and have a tank fabricated which matches a water buffalo's for appearances sake. I'll have to determine if that would require placards or not because if it does I'll have to get my CDL again with the HAZMAT endorsement, which is something I do not wish to do as the rules and regs governing CDL drivers are different from your normal operator's license. I don't like it but rules is rules.

The more you guys comment the more I have to consider things, which is what I really want. Thank you all again for the help.

EtA: I found the DOT regs and here it is:

Greater Than 119 Gallons Bulk
Diesel fuel carried in bulk (greater than 119 gallons) containers must comply with the following:

1. The container must be marked on one side as follows:
   
   Diesel Fuel
   NA 1993
2. The package/container must be labeled with a class 3, combustible label.
3. Shipping Papers must be immediately available upon request along with an MSDS sheet for diesel fuel.
4. The driver must obtain a Commercial Driver License with a hazardous materials endorsement. The driver and vehicle must meet several other federal DOT requirements.
5. Diesel fuel weighs approximately 7.5 pounds per gallon. At quantities weighing 1,000 pounds or more, the vehicle must be placarded with the appropriate placard.

It is still a good idea, but I'm not sure if it is a practical idea. This is now the last item I will seriously look at.

[eugene]

I keep thinking i'd like an 8' bed too but the length just makes it not worth it. What all are you carrying to need it? Look at my setup for example, I stay with the 6' bed and move as much weight to the front as I can, the battery for my camped for example I put under the hood of the truck rather than in the bed.

So you can carry a trailer on the canoe, what about the bike, or do you abandon it when the time to use the canoe comes.

[Tater Raider]

What all are you carrying to need it?

I will be using the truck as a daily driver and to haul lumber and landscaping material in addition to whatever it takes to make a small hobby farm work. A 6½' bed with the first 2' gone leaves me 4½' which will not leave me much room for soil, plants, or saplings, although it will work, barely, for lumber.

The first 2' are going to be lost to a 100 gallon cross-bed fuel tank and there is no other place to put it.

I could get the same out of the Jeep with the cargo trailer, but like I said, that will be a lot more work than I want to put into it and I will most likely end up buying the donar vehicle for the diesel anyways, which would mean a diesel panel truck or a Dodge Ram anyways, so I might as well just go with the truck and get one big enough so I don't need a trailer.

If I was driving this around a decent sized city, say 20k+ population, every day I would likely agree with you on the size. I agree with you enough on the size that I've ruled out the crew cab as an option and may not get the extended cab either just to shorten the overall length. I may have driven commercially and pulled 53' trailers around for a living for 3 years but I really don't want a bigger vehicle than I absolutely need.

This is definately one of those situational things.

Now if I win the lotto, all bets are off for my BOV. I'll get the Jeep Wrangler and then make it do what I want, even if the only thing that ends up staying Jeep on the vehicle is the body.

[Lonely Raven]

Wow, this is some serious planning. Props to you!

I'm tagging this thread to see what comes of it. Being in the Chicago suburbs (and broke) I can only live through your adventures.

[eugene]

I'm actually kind of liking the looks of the newer dodge trucks, they are basically extended cab but the doors open normally so you get pretty much a crew cab but extended cab length. Of course it would have to have a cummins.

[Tater Raider]

The cheap canoe to get me "done" with my temporary BOV:



This will go on top of the minivan. I'll need to get a receiver hitch style bicycle rack next and then I'm up and running for now, with the dream BOV as listed above coming as it is able. Trike will probably be the first item on the list.