Flex Fuel vehicles- the preferred BOV

[Visionz]

I recently purchased a Dodge Ram mega cab. I had several reasons for this purchase, not just BOV. However, when thinking of it's capabilities.. 4wd, good clearance, heavy, great storage, and flex-fuel capable, it seemed like a decent BOV.
For those not familiar with flex fuel vehicles, they allow 85% ethanol fuel. Vehicles that allow this must have an upgraded fuel system (mostly less rubber parts) because high ethanol fuel can eat away at a normal non flex fuel system.
Since ethanol and moonshine are basically the same thing (purified moonshine is ethanol). My next purchase might be a still for purposes of making biofuel.
I figure while the rest of the world is siphoning broken down vehicles for gas, I'll be making my own.
Has anyone else purchased a flex fuel vehicle or a flex fuel conversion kit for their vehicle?

[KJ4VOV]

You understand of course that you'll still need to blend gasoline with that ethanol for the vehicle to run, right? And that the colder your AO gets, the higher the ratio of gasoline should be?

[Visionz]

Gasoline is actually added for lubrication, really not much more.
You can actually mix a very small percentage of tranny fluid and get the same result.
Ethanol has a higher octane than most available gasoline so I am not sure why I would need a higher gasoline ratio, but I live in an area that has two weeks of winter anyway and even then winter is 45 degrees at the coldest.

[KJ4VOV]

Gasoline is actually added for lubrication, really not much more.
You can actually mix a very small percentage of tranny fluid and get the same result.
Ethanol has a higher octane than most available gasoline so I am not sure why I would need a higher gasoline ratio, but I live in an area that has two weeks of winter anyway and even then winter is 45 degrees at the coldest.

You'll need a higher ratio of gas because it's not used as a lubricant, it's used to increase the fuel vapor pressure. Below about 50 F stations in the US that sell E85 switch to a higher gasoline blend, about E70, else many flex fuel vehicles simply will not start and run. It's still called E85 on the pump, so as not to confuse people, but the actual ratio is about 30/70. The reason for this is, as I said, fuel vapor pressure at lower temps, but also because ethanol has a lot less energy per volume than gasoline (about 70,000 BTU per gallon vs 130,000 for gas) and US vehicles, even purpose built flex fuel vehicles, simply don't have a high enough compression ratio to make efficient use of high concentration ethanol fuels.

I'd suggest doing some in depth study of ethanol as a fuel before basing your future plans on building a still and running off moonshine.

[Visionz]

You are right. I never really thought about it, but I have used moonshine as an emergency cooking fuel.
Some cotton balls soaked in moonshine stuffed into an empty tuna can is practically as good as sterno it burns so long.
Gasoline would not act in the same manner and it probably has to do with the vapors.
Still, for long time storage of fuel, wouldn't it be better to store 25 gallons of gas and be able to turn it into 100 gallons with ethanol (25:75 mixture) versus having only 25 gallons available?

[DJH]

Still, for long time storage of fuel, wouldn't it be better to store 25 gallons of gas and be able to turn it into 100 gallons with ethanol (25:75 mixture) versus having only 25 gallons available?

Sounds reasonable. I would wonder how ethanol and Sta-Bil react, if at all. Something I've never thought of. You might be on to something there. Keep in mind however that ethanol does not perform quite as well as gasoline, thus you won't get the same mileage or power from it (unless you are also installing a programmable ECU such as an AEM unit and you can retune engine maps to take full advantage.)

[KJ4VOV]

The folks at Sta-Bil do make an alcohol formula designed to be used with ethanol blends. However, even with a stabilizer your gas is not going to be good forever. Figure 18-24 months tops (in portable containers).

[Blacksmith]

Ethanol is very resource intensive to manufacture. I think diesel or multi-fuel is a better choice.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I was told that a large number of vehicles in "banana republics" run on ethanol, straight. I assume my source meant countries with large sugarcane production. Still, even with its less-powerful chemical compound, is there a wat=y to convert a vehicle to pure ethanol, or would it require an intense engine rebuild/ground up design?

[KJ4VOV]

I was told that a large number of vehicles in "banana republics" run on ethanol, straight. I assume my source meant countries with large sugarcane production. Still, even with its less-powerful chemical compound, is there a wat=y to convert a vehicle to pure ethanol, or would it require an intense engine rebuild/ground up design?

Brasil has large numbers of ethanol powered vehicles, including some working on "pure" hydrous ethanol but those are purpose built specifically for that fuel. Their government mandates E25 as a minimum.

[DJH]

I was told that a large number of vehicles in "banana republics" run on ethanol, straight. I assume my source meant countries with large sugarcane production. Still, even with its less-powerful chemical compound, is there a wat=y to convert a vehicle to pure ethanol, or would it require an intense engine rebuild/ground up design?

It doesn't require a complete ground up design, but it can be done. I know a lot of WRX & Evo guys who do so. It's costly to convert, and they really only see gains due to increased boost levels, etc. - Not the kind of stuff people here are really looking for I'd think. It's not as efficient as regular fuel.

[MaconCJ7]

First, ethanol as a fuel is a horrible idea. Efficiency is lowered, performance is lowered, and you produce more waste. That being said, I have nothing good to say. You will see better performance, power, and efficiency using regular unleaded, if you can find it. While you can make your own fuel for a gasoline engine, you would have wasted, time, energy, and resources that would have been better spent on a diesel. All is not lost however. You can convert yours to propane/natural gas injection. You can also install a propane/natural gas injection to augment your fuel. You'll notice increased numbers, and decreased emissions as compared ethanol blends.

*Note* Propane and Natural Gas are not the same. Buy a system designed for both, or one specifically. Either way, use the fuel it's designed for.

*Side Note* If you want to make your own fuel, buy a diesel. Basically if it's oily in design, it can be used as a fuel for a diesel engine. There are variables of course. The older the diesel, the more lenient it is to non #2 you use.

[crypto]

Have there really been cars made in the last 20 years that have rubber seals that rot from alcohol use? That seems inconceivable to me, given how long various states have been mandating E10 or E15 blends. I haven't even seen straight gasoline for sale in a decade.

[KJ4VOV]

Have there really been cars made in the last 20 years that have rubber seals that rot from alcohol use? That seems inconceivable to me, given how long various states have been mandating E10 or E15 blends. I haven't even seen straight gasoline for sale in a decade.

You can still get straight gasoline (no ethanol) in some places. There's one or two stations near me that still sell it. I also have secondhand info that one state (Iowa possibly?) does not allow ethanol blends. I have nothing to confirm that with, but I do know the guy who told me that is usually very trustworthy.

The thing that really boggles the mind is that you can still buy leaded fuels in some places apparently. I used to manage a service station and 3 bay garage. I was repainting our tank markings on a day when we got a surprise inspection. I had the unleaded regular drop already painted red, and was getting ready to put the white cross on it and the son of a bitch wrote me a $500 fine for having incorrect markings. (The white cross indicates unleaded, without the cross it indicates leaded) I argued with him about it and said, "They don't even make leaded gas anymore!" and he replied with, "Yes they do! You can get it for farm equipment in many states." Since this was in the middle of frigging Brooklyn, I continued to argue with him but still ended up paying the damn fine.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

It doesn't require a complete ground up design, but it can be done. I know a lot of WRX & Evo guys who do so. It's costly to convert, and they really only see gains due to increased boost levels, etc. - Not the kind of stuff people here are really looking for I'd think. It's not as efficient as regular fuel.

You're thinking of methanol, used by IRL and CART among other race engines. It's a different fuel with a different structure, and it behaves very differently from ethanol. Methanol is also used (in my experience) as a 1(methanol):5(D2) mix additive for diesel engines, or with a spray injection for the same.

I'd drop some links but it took me 20 minutes to load google earlier...

[DJH]

It doesn't require a complete ground up design, but it can be done. I know a lot of WRX & Evo guys who do so. It's costly to convert, and they really only see gains due to increased boost levels, etc. - Not the kind of stuff people here are really looking for I'd think. It's not as efficient as regular fuel.

You're thinking of methanol, used by IRL and CART among other race engines. It's a different fuel with a different structure, and it behaves very differently from ethanol. Methanol is also used (in my experience) as a 1(methanol):5(D2) mix additive for diesel engines, or with a spray injection for the same.

I'd drop some links but it took me 20 minutes to load google earlier...

You're right, brain fart. But I swear I heard my brother in law (Scott Fox, Motiva Engineering) talking about some cars he's built to run ethanol for the track recently. I'll try andput some links up later when I actually wake up more today.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I'd believe that some performance cars are being ethanol built, for the same reasons that VW is fielding biofuel racecars and several tuners are trying all-electric or hybrid racers.

[Tater Raider]

Run a tank of E-85, run another of E-10, and run another of pure gasoline (if available) then figure out how many miles per dollar you get.

I owned a flex-fuel vehicle. Running pure gasoline was most efficient per dollar. I no longer own a flex fuel vehicle - purpose tuning is best.

YMMV. Literally.

[KJ4VOV]

The only advantage I've found so far with flex fuel vehicles is in renting them. It's cheaper to fill the tank with E85 before you turn it back in than it is to fill it with gas.

[Bruno_GO]

In Brazil (where I live), the flex fuel vehicles is almost a rule, something common, normal.
90% of the new cars came from factories FLEX FUEL.

[MacAttack]

So what do you plan on making this Alcohol out of?

Rice, potatoes, corn or some other food product to make ethanol?

Methanol is produced from natural gas and NOT by biochemical reactions like ethanol is. If your thinking of making it by biochemical reaction then you had better come up with a way that has so far not been found. Biochem does not produce enough fast enough to be feasible yet.

And personally I would rather eat my food than drive on it.


You would do better capturing methane off of your septic tank or manure pile and using that to run your vehicles.

[Bruno_GO]

So what do you plan on making this Alcohol out of?

Rice, potatoes, corn or some other food product to make ethanol?

Methanol is produced from natural gas and NOT by biochemical reactions like ethanol is. If your thinking of making it by biochemical reaction then you had better come up with a way that has so far not been found. Biochem does not produce enough fast enough to be feasible yet.

And personally I would rather eat my food than drive on it.


You would do better capturing methane off of your septic tank or manure pile and using that to run your vehicles.

In Brazil the ethanol is produced from SUGAR CANE.

[JoeTosco]

Here in Brazil the ethanol was introduced in the 70's and since then there are both gas and ethanol running cars.

In the case of VW beetles, the ethanol ones had higher compression rates to compensate the poor perfomance, dual carburators covered with niquel, normally the small gas tank is for cold start only, after the engine heats you run on ethanol only.

They were very popular because of the slightly better perfomance(in comparison to the gas ones) due to the configuration mentioned above.

One funny thing about that is the distinctive alcohol smell that leaks from the exaust pipe, and the water dripping constantly.

Nowadays most cars are flex. I think all the popular models are...

For some time I tought about selling my beetle ang getting a ethanol based one, because of this same idea you have, but then I forgot all about that.

Been thinking of buying a diesel Toyota Land Cruiser(called bandeirante here ) and trying some biodiesel on it(maybe a better idea).

[dukman]

I thought E85 type fuels was heavily subsidized by the Brazilian government, making it way cheaper than regular gasoline. The perceived price difference was one of the reasons for the push to E85 up here in the states, but in reality E85 is only a few dimes cheaper than the normal pump gas, and far less fuel efficient.