Pet meds for human use

[Visionz]

Being a pharmacist does not make me right ot wrong, it just makes me a pharmacist, no more or less. And this is the interwebs, how do you actually know? Anyways....

I really don't see a problem with self medicating antibiotics. It's really not a dangerous drug (even expired) unless overused.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... &page=1858" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

701,547 ER admissions due to adverse drug events. 127,807 of those due to antibiotics. 35,228 of those were due to amoxicillin. This is why amoxicillin is a dangerous drug and even more dangerous when there is no ER. YMMV, but it is a bad, bad idea to recommend this for unnecessary situations.

I have never changed anyone's mind on this and I don't expect to. Good luck with everything.

I assume you are a pharmacist based not only on your claim, but your posts. They seem to be inline with what the typical pharmacist would say.
I understand self medication can be dangerous if abused. Perhaps I could have worded my post a little different. If anyone has called you a hypochondriac, if you take tylenol for a paper cut, if you have volumes of books that tell you what OTC supplements will help you lose weight (but you never exercise and eat unhealthy), if you easilly become addicted to things, and especially if you are not willing to investigate and read about what you will take BEFORE you take it, it might not be advisable to self medicate.
The figures of how many people go to the ER due to amoxacillin are interesting, but honestly thousands damage their liver every year and wind up in the hospital from tylenol, and I would venture to say the number of people who wind up in the ER from alcohol consumption FAR exceed that of amoxacillin.

Most importantly, I think we need to recognize this is a survivalist forum and most of what is written is in terms of PAW stuff anyway, or at least in terms of survival when a doctor isn't easilly available

[Liff]

Discarding the paper Sanford guide, I would say that for this specific indication, the internet does say 500 mg four times daily (qid).

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2009/0215/p303.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If infection of the lateral nail fold is suspected, physicians should prescribe an oral antibiotic that covers common skin flora (e.g., cephalexin [Keflex] 500 mg orally four times daily for five to seven days).11

http://phenolablation.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Not the greatest reference.)

Keflex (cephalexin) 500mg: prescribed, 4x/day for 10 days given for wound infection after follow-up visit during second week...

Also, the half life of cephalexin in the body is about 1 hour. This means that after about 5 hours, effectively, all of the drug is out of the body. So then, does it make more sense to dose this medicine every 6 hours or every 12 hours? that is why when you look at drugs.com almost every other indication is 4 times daily and not twice daily.

Additional reasons the infection may not have needed antibiotic therapy.
http://www.fpin.org/assets/documents/78 ... 202011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Page 7.
http://www.globalfamilydoctor.com/searc ... ntType=HDA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the fact check.

[ptAltered]

If you have insurance, why didn't you just go get it checked out?

In response to this question, who really wants to go to the doctor? It would suck if I had to go through years of college to get an alternator for my car when I know that is what I need. Furthermore, it would suck to make an appointment at the mechanic and sit in a waiting room for an hour for him/her to say "ok go buy an alternator". When I know what is broke and what it takes to fix it, I hate to have to pay for an ok (even with insurance). I realize antibiotics can weaken your natural immune system, and that is why they are prescription only, and also that is why I take them only in the direst of circumstances (frankly I hate meds in general)
Kudos to you for finishing college and getting your pharmacist license, I am only a manager of a large retail pharmacy with a tech certificate. However, if a person is not a hypochondriac and isa med-hating individual such as myself. I really don't see a problem with self medicating antibiotics. It's really not a dangerous drug (even expired) unless overused.

^

/threadwin

Liff, are you a Pharm.D.? Or something else?

Frankly, you sound more like you're profession is guided by lawyers and CYA than any attempt to discuss science and avoid having to support the med/pharm industry, especially by such effrontery for the patient to be thinking for themselves.

[SteelWolf]

Now for the fun question. Would you have gotten better with nothing? The odds are the answer is yes.

Odds are no actually. This nail has gone ingrown 4 times in the past 3 years and has required medical intervention each time. I am attempting to get in with a Podiatrist to just ablate the fucker, but with the VA it is a pain in the Ai-Noos to get assigned to a specialist. I wear boots every day so that doesn't help the situation either. But, EMS + sandals = no go so...

[SteelWolf]

Discarding the paper Sanford guide, I would say that for this specific indication, the internet does say 500 mg four times daily (qid).

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2009/0215/p303.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If infection of the lateral nail fold is suspected, physicians should prescribe an oral antibiotic that covers common skin flora (e.g., cephalexin [Keflex] 500 mg orally four times daily for five to seven days).11

http://phenolablation.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Not the greatest reference.)

Keflex (cephalexin) 500mg: prescribed, 4x/day for 10 days given for wound infection after follow-up visit during second week...

Also, the half life of cephalexin in the body is about 1 hour. This means that after about 5 hours, effectively, all of the drug is out of the body. So then, does it make more sense to dose this medicine every 6 hours or every 12 hours? that is why when you look at drugs.com almost every other indication is 4 times daily and not twice daily.

Additional reasons the infection may not have needed antibiotic therapy.
http://www.fpin.org/assets/documents/78 ... 202011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Page 7.
http://www.globalfamilydoctor.com/searc ... ntType=HDA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the fact check.

And oddly, the last 4 times i was given a script it was 2x daily po 500 MG.

[Liff]

Liff, are you a Pharm.D.? Or something else?

Frankly, you sound more like you're profession is guided by lawyers and CYA than any attempt to discuss science and avoid having to support the med/pharm industry, especially by such effrontery for the patient to be thinking for themselves.

PharmD. and BCNP.

I don't really know how to take your second sentence. Normally I discourage the use of most medicines in general. All medicines are poisons, just at certain doses they have therapeutic value. Why would you want to intentionally poison yourself? Every medicine has risk and reward. That is the whole basis for the FDA's existence. Safe and effective.

The idea of "safe" gets blurred. (Almost) All chemotherapy medicines are directly cytotoxic. How safe is it that the medicine actively kills parts of the human? However, for that population, chemotherapy medicines are indeed "safe". What about Accutane? Accutane is literally a toxic form of Vitamin A that kills off parts of your skin and liver and is guaranteed to cause birth defects. This is not something to recommend lightly. Speaking of birth defects, thalidomide, which is still on the market.

Maybe the problem is the internet style of posting. No one wants to read a long post. Make it short. I absolutely encourage people to understand their own bodies and their own health states. How they can improve them and how to manage those states. Lots of times I post very specific statements and back up those statements with non-advertisement based references.

I don't post in certain topics because I have no idea what I am talking about, for example the quick clot substitute thread. I have never had to stop bleeding that bad, and it doesn't matter what references I can find, because there is something to be said for experience. Then again, if you wanted to know something about anticoagulation, I might be inclined to post in that thread (but not really).

"Post with Integrity" is a post in the rules section. Knowing what I know, having integrity as I post, how can I advocate medicines not intended for human use to be used on humans? I can't, and I would love to be wrong. I would love for someone to post a reference of a pharmaceutical analysis that these medicines are bioavailable and bioequivalent to the capsules intended for human use. That would be great. Not an advertisement or a blog post, but something from the NIH or JAMA or Lancet or something like that.

I absolutely encourage effrontery. Just don't get angry or take it personally when you have a "great idea" that isn't great and may be dangerous.

[Liff]

Joke, sarcasm warning ahead. Relax, it is mostly in jest.

And oddly, the last 4 times i was given a script it was 2x daily po 500 MG.

That is odd.

[Odds are no actually. This nail has gone ingrown 4 times in the past 3 years and has required medical intervention each time. I am attempting to get in with a Podiatrist to just ablate the fucker, but with the VA it is a pain in the Ai-Noos to get assigned to a specialist. I wear boots every day so that doesn't help the situation either. But, EMS + sandals = no go so...

Now it's not odd.


Do your best to see the actual podiatrist soon.

[SteelWolf]

Definitely. Its getting out of hand. FIrst time this shit happened I had the nail torn out in the BAS at a shitty Iraqi Army compound (by an American PA not an Iraqi). I do NOT want to get an ingrown in the PAW.

Liff - what do you know about "ablations" ? From what Ive read I'm hoping that does the trick.

[Liff]

Liff - what do you know about "ablations" ? From what Ive read I'm hoping that does the trick.

Well, that is way, way outside of my knowledge base and I am woefully unqualified to throw my opinion in from a medical point of view.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a patient point of view, I had problems with both of the toenails on my big toes when I was 12 (36 now). My memory from 24 years ago isn't the best, but I remember the application something I was told was an acid (probably wasn't, but they were talking to a 12 year old) to the nail base after they took wire cutter looking like things to my toe nail. Twenty four years later and I have had zero issues with ingrown toenails.

I would be all over the ablation idea. Being old and cranky like I am now, I would be even more cantankerous in my insistence to see a real podiatrist.

[duodecima]

Definitely. Its getting out of hand. FIrst time this shit happened I had the nail torn out in the BAS at a shitty Iraqi Army compound (by an American PA not an Iraqi). I do NOT want to get an ingrown in the PAW.

Liff - what do you know about "ablations" ? From what Ive read I'm hoping that does the trick.

Speaking as someone who does ablations, they generally do do the trick. (I'm an FP not podiatry, tho.). Numb up toe, remove the offending edge of the toenail and, if this is not the first time you've had to do this, apply chemical to the nail matrix to try to kill it. Note I said "try.". The body likes to heal, I've had a couple patients have that edge grow back, but it's usually a smaller flimsier nail, it was only a problem again for one person.

Good luck getting it done!

(Also, the self medicating with antibiotics drives me up a tree because for every person who gets it right, there are a minimum of 10 others convinced they've got it right even tho they don't...)

[ptAltered]

"Post with Integrity" is a post in the rules section. Knowing what I know, having integrity as I post, how can I advocate medicines not intended for human use to be used on humans? I can't, and I would love to be wrong. I would love for someone to post a reference of a pharmaceutical analysis that these medicines are bioavailable and bioequivalent to the capsules intended for human use. That would be great. Not an advertisement or a blog post, but something from the NIH or JAMA or Lancet or something like that.

I'd expect it to come out in their as yet unpublished work called "Killing the Golden Goose: How to get people to start thinking about their own care and stop making MD's and Pharmacy companies obscenely wealthy".

[duodecima]

"Post with Integrity" is a post in the rules section. Knowing what I know, having integrity as I post, how can I advocate medicines not intended for human use to be used on humans? I can't, and I would love to be wrong. I would love for someone to post a reference of a pharmaceutical analysis that these medicines are bioavailable and bioequivalent to the capsules intended for human use. That would be great. Not an advertisement or a blog post, but something from the NIH or JAMA or Lancet or something like that.

I'd expect it to come out in their as yet unpublished work called "Killing the Golden Goose: How to get people to start thinking about their own care and stop making MD's and Pharmacy companies obscenely wealthy".

That seems needlessly inflammatory. I don't think Liff's getting rich (nor am I). You clearly feel strongly on the subject - Liff has a long history of posts on this topic and sincerely feels strongly about it too.

If you've got the kind of references Liff wishes we had - post 'em. If that will ruin the scoop of your forthcoming book, say so, or PM Liff.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that people NOT think about their own care - quite the opposite, in fact.

[Mr.Pliskin]

Good read on survival medicin including fish mox is a book written be Dr. Doom and Bloom.

[Jamie]

I see three main practical problems with using pet meds for humans...they might be sand/ash/cat-poop, we run the risk of overusing antibiotics and helping to create drug-resistant strains, and I might be a potato-head and use the wrong drug in the wrong dosage for the wrong ailment.

Problem 1
This seems a good article with good information:

http://www.truthistreason.net/guide-to- ... -post-shtf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have ordered and used the drugs from Cal-Vet, one of the companies that they mention, and they had the FDA markings and coloration that correctly identified it as amoxicillin in the proper dosage.


Problem 2
4 time as many antibiotics are fed to livestock as are consumed by humans...these are largely fed at low dosages to promote growth/productivity in livestock...additionally, doctors and nurses in my neck of the woods seem to give out z-packs and other antiobiotics like halloween candy every flu season...that being the case, I have trouble worrying too much about my possibly overusing antibiotics...

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/06/f ... tibiotics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/02/d ... tibiotics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=18659" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Problem 3
There are numerous reputable and reliable references sources on the WWW for finding out about antibiotic use/dosage...I can read and understand medical jargon, and am motivated to make/keep myself healthy (probably more so than a doctor or nurse that will see me for 4 minutes before shoving me out the door to maximize client visit numbers)...

For the last few years, I've used pet-meds on myself to great effect...not often, I don't get sick often, and don't use antibiotics on viruses or infections that my body can handle. I don't advocate people doing anything they're uncomfortable with, but also am not OK with giving that much power or respect to doctors or big pharma...they work for me, and I'm smarter than lots of the ones handing out scrips, especially about my health...

Jamie

[ptAltered]

"Post with Integrity" is a post in the rules section. Knowing what I know, having integrity as I post, how can I advocate medicines not intended for human use to be used on humans? I can't, and I would love to be wrong. I would love for someone to post a reference of a pharmaceutical analysis that these medicines are bioavailable and bioequivalent to the capsules intended for human use. That would be great. Not an advertisement or a blog post, but something from the NIH or JAMA or Lancet or something like that.

I'd expect it to come out in their as yet unpublished work called "Killing the Golden Goose: How to get people to start thinking about their own care and stop making MD's and Pharmacy companies obscenely wealthy".

That seems needlessly inflammatory. I don't think Liff's getting rich (nor am I). You clearly feel strongly on the subject - Liff has a long history of posts on this topic and sincerely feels strongly about it too.

If you've got the kind of references Liff wishes we had - post 'em. If that will ruin the scoop of your forthcoming book, say so, or PM Liff.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that people NOT think about their own care - quite the opposite, in fact.

It's not inflammatory it's just reasonable. Why would a medical journal that profits off of the healthcare industry write papers about using antibiotics on your own without beseeching the blessings of the high priests and, of course, paying for that service?

I'd like to think that a pharmacist could show reasons why a position isn't valid or be able to name specific issues with these antibiotics that make them unfit for human use. Saying that some governmental regulatory agency hasn't "Approved" it doesn't mean it's not safe! I mean, christ, marijuana is still a schedule I substance in America... "no known medical benefit"..... hah! I'll take my healthcare from "approved providers" with a grain of salt.

If someone said "Hey, take potassium cyanide for your headaches!" we'd all be able to provide sources and information showing what a bad idea that is.

Why can't a Pharm.D. tell us that ciproflaxin in a yellow and red pill with x234 on the side is different than ciproflaxin in a yellow and red pill with x234 on the side?


What specifically is different between pet antibiotics and human antibiotics? Also, how do these microorganisms know that they're to be used in fish tanks instead of humans? A lay person should be able to ask these questions to a qualified practitioner and get real answers that have more depth than "The Alphabet Soup of the Nanny State dictates that you visit a physician before using a compound on yourself".

[ptAltered]

I see three main practical problems with using pet meds for humans...they might be sand/ash/cat-poop, we run the risk of overusing antibiotics and helping to create drug-resistant strains, and I might be a potato-head and use the wrong drug in the wrong dosage for the wrong ailment.

Problem 1
This seems a good article with good information:

http://www.truthistreason.net/guide-to- ... -post-shtf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have ordered and used the drugs from Cal-Vet, one of the companies that they mention, and they had the FDA markings and coloration that correctly identified it as amoxicillin in the proper dosage.


Problem 2
4 time as many antibiotics are fed to livestock as are consumed by humans...these are largely fed at low dosages to promote growth/productivity in livestock...additionally, doctors and nurses in my neck of the woods seem to give out z-packs and other antiobiotics like halloween candy every flu season...that being the case, I have trouble worrying too much about my possibly overusing antibiotics...

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/06/f ... tibiotics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/02/d ... tibiotics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=18659" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Problem 3
There are numerous reputable and reliable references sources on the WWW for finding out about antibiotic use/dosage...I can read and understand medical jargon, and am motivated to make/keep myself healthy (probably more so than a doctor or nurse that will see me for 4 minutes before shoving me out the door to maximize client visit numbers)...

For the last few years, I've used pet-meds on myself to great effect...not often, I don't get sick often, and don't use antibiotics on viruses or infections that my body can handle. I don't advocate people doing anything they're uncomfortable with, but also am not OK with giving that much power or respect to doctors or big pharma...they work for me, and I'm smarter than lots of the ones handing out scrips, especially about my health...

Jamie

Outstanding post, sir!

I think people should be able to purchase heroin, cocaine or anything else OTC for use in their own body.

Doc Torr - http://www.doomandbloom.net/2011/10/fis ... lapse.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.doomandbloom.net/2012/03/3082.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; A physician discussing the use of antibiotics in humans. I've still seen nothing from medical professionals on this site other than chicken-little'isms'. If something in a fish antibiotic is so harmful, why can't anyone point out why?

From the first link;

For many years, I was a tropical fish enthusiast. Currently, I am growing Tilapia as a food fish in my aquaculture pond. After years of using these medicines on fish, I decided to evaluate these drugs for their potential use in collapse situations. A close inspection of the bottles revealed that the only ingredient was the drug itself,identical to those obtained by prescription at the local pharmacy. If the bottle says FISH-MOX, for example, the sole ingredient is Amoxicillin, which is an antibiotic commonly used in humans. There are no additional chemicals to makes your scales shiny or your fins longer.

The SOLE ingredient is Amoxicillin.

I understand that you might be skeptical about considering the use of aquarium antibiotics for humans in a collapse. Those things are for fish, aren’t they? If this is purely the case, then why are all of the above antibiotics also commonly used on humans? More importantly: Why are these antibiotics in the exact same DOSAGES that are used in humans? Why would a guppy require a dosage of FISH-MOX FORTE that would suffice for a 180 pound human adult? It is my opinion that they are manufactured in the same way that “human” antibiotics are made; I don’t have proof, but perhaps they even come from similar batches.

That's a very interesting point. I wish MSDS sheets were available for medicines but, to my knowledge, they are not.

http://www.drugs.com/imprints/wc-731-wc-731-12083.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; <-- That's the imprint off of Fish Mox 500mg.

Liff - Could you take a picture or two of all of the 500mg Amox that you've got on hand, specifically any with that same imprint as shown above?

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I think people should be able to purchase heroin, cocaine or anything else OTC for use in their own body.Aaaaaaaaaand this is where I step back and say "No politics."

Doc Torr - http://www.doomandbloom.net/2011/10/fis ... lapse.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.doomandbloom.net/2012/03/3082.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; A physician discussing the use of antibiotics in humans. I've still seen nothing from medical professionals on this site other than chicken-little'isms'. If something in a fish antibiotic is so harmful, why can't anyone point out why?

Dunno why you're asking me. I'm just a mostly-secondhand trained field medic. I just think that based on the lay talk I've seen on the interwebs, people should be careful about medication.

Seriously, tone down the tinfoil and politics a bit, and you might have a little more of an audience. Otherwise I'm gonna grab my popcorn and wait for the eventual lock.

[ptAltered]

Dunno why you're asking me. I'm just a mostly-secondhand trained field medic. I just think that based on the lay talk I've seen on the interwebs, people should be careful about medication.

You asked for a better source.

Seriously, tone down the tinfoil and politics a bit, and you might have a little more of an audience. Otherwise I'm gonna grab my popcorn and wait for the eventual lock.

Didn't realize anything I said was related to tinfoil hats. The entire issue here is, at it's root, political. It's not the antibiotics, or the fishes, or the vast majority of humans that want these laws, it's the attorneys that spend their off time rolling around in a pool of gold coins.

[abelru]

(edit)...The entire issue here is, at it's root, political. It's not the antibiotics, or the fishes, or the vast majority of humans that want these laws, it's the attorneys that spend their off time rolling around in a pool of gold coins.

...And we have arrived at the crux of the issue.

This thread, and several others like it have posed questions, presumably in the hopes that some of the qualified medical folks in this community could chime in and lend their $0.02. Several have been gracious enough to take the time to help illustrate several of the pitfalls and trappings of antibiotic administration (including safety concerns regarding vet meds).
These answers have been provided with the health and best interest of our members in mind, and based upon training and best evidence.

Absolutely, 100%, and with total crystal clarity there has never been a political agenda. And while it is true that most of us with licenses at stake would stop short of advocating certain ideas, the reasons provided as to why taking pet meds is not advisable is based largely upon training/science/evidence/experience.

I would say that when asking a question, be prepared from time to time to hear an answer that conflicts with what you hope to hear.

The legality issues are many as well, and I would like to address this. We are not cowards for being concerned about potential sanctions or litigation. This is our livelihood. This is how we feed our families, and ensure our future. Would you risk it all to dispense advice to a perfect stranger?

I am in no way attempting to be sanctimonious, I promise you. Debate is a very good thing. That is, after all why we all contribute to this board. To discuss ideas, and seek answers.

But it seems that this topic, and many like it are doomed to the mindless debates akin to 'Glock vs 1911', unless there is some acknowledgement that certain things can be somewhat safe, but Ill-advised. Some things are outright harmful, and even others are just plainly bad ideas. Politics aside, and all...

[Liff]

So I had typed up a long reply showing all of the faults of recent posts. Then I thought better of it, and it is time for me to move on.

Then abelru posted while I was typing that long response. Definitely time to move on.

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

[ptAltered]

So I had typed up a long reply showing all of the faults of recent posts. Then I thought better of it, and it is time for me to move on.

Then abelru posted while I was typing that long response. Definitely time to move on.

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

Second and third time you've said that in this thread. Either stick by your guns and leave or answer any of the direct questions I've asked. Argument from authority carries no weight here.

Either way, thanks for contributing.

[ptAltered]

This thread, and several others like it have posed questions, presumably in the hopes that some of the qualified medical folks in this community could chime in and lend their $0.02. Several have been gracious enough to take the time to help illustrate several of the pitfalls and trappings of antibiotic administration (including safety concerns regarding vet meds).

I've seen absolutly nothing "illustrating" the safety concerns related to veterinary medicines in this thread. Other than calling upon authority and false dichotomies, I haven't seen any medical studies or any reasons to back up their claims, despite being asked for these specifics a few dozen times.

Absolutely, 100%, and with total crystal clarity there has never been a political agenda. And while it is true that most of us with licenses at stake would stop short of advocating certain ideas, the reasons provided as to why taking pet meds is not advisable is based largely upon training/science/evidence/experience.

There is a world of difference between advocating a treatment and discussing a chemical or compound. I'd like to think that a Pharm.D. could offer more than "FIND ME A STUDY THAT SAYS ITS OK". Perhaps "Ah, but Pill X contains substance Y that doesn't hurt fish but can hurt humans". We've got none of that here.

The legality issues are many as well, and I would like to address this. We are not cowards for being concerned about potential sanctions or litigation. This is our livelihood. This is how we feed our families, and ensure our future. Would you risk it all to dispense advice to a perfect stranger?

Giving advice and discussing chemistry are two different things.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Dunno why you're asking me. I'm just a mostly-secondhand trained field medic. I just think that based on the lay talk I've seen on the interwebs, people should be careful about medication.

You asked for a better source.

Seriously, tone down the tinfoil and politics a bit, and you might have a little more of an audience. Otherwise I'm gonna grab my popcorn and wait for the eventual lock.

Didn't realize anything I said was related to tinfoil hats. The entire issue here is, at it's root, political. It's not the antibiotics, or the fishes, or the vast majority of humans that want these laws, it's the attorneys that spend their off time rolling around in a pool of gold coins.

See, when you start saying things like that, and using "Nanny State" in a serious sentence, I'm calling tinfoil. Either way, the entire governmental healthcare regulation system is not up for debate here, as it's inherently political. Same thing with complaining about certain substances being banned, or whatever else you want to complain about. The rules still stand, no political discussion.

[ptAltered]

I'm done here.

People asked for sources, which I gave, and they didn't like. I gave better sources, from a M.D. no less, and no reply comes.

Do what you want! Be the guy that dies of an infection in the 21st century because of a label!

We'll soon have to have prescriptions to boil water to disinfect it...