TWD, viruses, carrier, infected??

[ninja-elbow]

THis question stems from a conversation coming from another "zombie hunter" group's leader I work with here in Portland (Niall's Zombie Service). This came up after he stated he was puzzled by The Walking Dead's TV show's canon of "we are all carriers" of the zombie virus. He asked:

OK, finding this a bit too troubling to move beyond.
Everybody has the virus, so, if they die, they become a walker. But if they are BITTEN somehow, the virus makes them sick with the virus they already have?

The FB post was commented on and it seemed there was confusion on how one can carry but not be infected. I explained that IRL, we all carry various forms of staff, but rarely get infected by it. Niall stated he wanted to see "the math" on that. Neither of us are virologists or even remotely educated in such things and both of us are curious ... my information just being from some common knowledge that we can carry stuff but not be infected by said stuff in various degrees.

The question I pose:
Where can we find said information regarding the IRL dynamics of micro-organisms and infection v. carry of said organisms?

[Roger Brough]

Not sure what IRL dynamics are; but, I would suggest that there are dozens of sources, through Lexus Nexus, ScienceDirect, and even the CDC website if you were to be more specific; however, I do not think it will be in layman's terms. The common flu shot is often a strain meant to make the body accept, learn and then fight. Ebola prognosis survival is less than 40% though. People walk around with plenty of contagious diseases often spread though skin to skin contact, and bodily fluids, but the body often develops an immunity.

http://www.oceaniamed.org/smj/V001I0012009/11.%20SMJ_V1-1_LESSONS%20LEARNT%20FROM%20THE%20SWINE%20FLU%20EPIDEMIC.pdf

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=60945

The second discusses that it is common for children to carry the virus in their throats and infect others, without ever getting sick.

[ninja-elbow]

IRL - In Real Life

Thanks, those are the kinds of things I am looking for. Anyone here an actual microbiologist or some such?

[RickOShea]

THis question stems from a conversation coming from another "zombie hunter" group's leader I work with here in Portland (Niall's Zombie Service). This came up after he stated he was puzzled by The Walking Dead's TV show's canon of "we are all carriers" of the zombie virus. He asked:

OK, finding this a bit too troubling to move beyond.
Everybody has the virus, so, if they die, they become a walker. But if they are BITTEN somehow, the virus makes them sick with the virus they already have?

Like I mentioned in the "TWD TV Show" thread, the "Walkers" are basically the same as the Romero ghouls from the original NOTLD.

A bite will kill you, much the same as the venom/bacteria in a Komodo Dragon's bite.....And everyone who dies (with an undamaged brain), no matter the cause, will reanimate.

As for the science behind it......Who da f*** do I look like, Christopher Columbo?

[croaker260]

Dam it Jim, I am a paramedic, not a virologist!


Oh god, there are tons of examples of this. TB comes to mind. Staph (not "staff")in all of its various incarnations, MRSA, etc. IIRC, some of the STDs can fit this bill. A lot of times it depends on the route of exposure, proliferation of the virus , and overall health of the HOST/Patient.

An example I can immediately think of is wound botulism in IV drug users, where the bacteria may exist on the skin, or even in the GI tract, but once it enters the blood stream though the (stereo-typical but not absolutely true) dirty technique , it becomes systemic.

HEP can also survive out side the body in various forms for quite a long while, but it takes the right combination of circumstances to get infected. Though HIV is less robust and therefore less transmissible.... the same analogy can be made.

If we assume that the Z-Virus a is like botulism (or any number of bacteria and fungi) it is very common in the environment (or on the characters, god knows there is a TON of blood going around), but when it receives a vector past the skin (which is our main line of defense against environmental toxins) or against mucosal contact then there is a chance (but not a guarantee) that it would achieve transmission. I would imagine the bite is worse because higher counts of the virus exist in the mouth of the infected host. That and the feces, but who wants to play in Zombie Feces. (I dont really want to know if you do....)


I really cant believe I am having this discussion.

[ninja-elbow]

It's why there is a Zombie Squad - real world answers from real world people regarding fantasy tropes

[Ad'lan]

Undergrad chemist, A-level in biology, which I suppose is a years worth of American biology 101. The term you want is Asymptomatic Carrier, search Google scholar, pub med or if you have access (best bet, university library computers) web of knowledge is what I use.

The most well known case would probably Typhoid Mary.

There are a few general types of carrier. Those infected, but immune or resistant and those infected but not yet manifesting. Typhoid Mary seems to be the first case. HIV would be the classic example of the second. The carrier can be outwardly fine, but infect others unwittingly.

[azrael99]

first i am not affiliated with any form of medical worker. i only have advance first aid training

what i think is: i have a friend who got a infection, it wasn't mortal or anything at that time, but he still had it with minimum effect. THEN the infection spread through his blood and his body became septic. the infection spread and he got at one inch to die from it. it took him 6 to 8 month of medication, test, and rest to fight it.

i cannot say what was his diseases, but i know that he became nauseous, got cyst, pus swelling from where the infection spread, fever, lost appetite got sick every few minute, fall asleep during hours due to tiredness.

it wasn't pretty.

so that my theory: we all have the virus but it's too weak to do any arm, but when bite then the virus spread and the body become septic. if we die of other thing the virus can spread since we are dying so is our immune system.

[Liff]

Away from the great examples with bacteria and back to viral diseases:

Herpes. You can have outbreak of the disease, the disease goes into remission, and you can still transmit the virus to others while you are in remission. Cold sores are herpes also.

Shingles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingles

The initial infection with varicella zoster virus (VZV) causes the acute (short-lived) illness chickenpox which generally occurs in children and young people. Once an episode of chickenpox has resolved, the virus is not eliminated from the body but can go on to cause shingles—an illness with very different symptoms—often many years after the initial infection.

Again with the remission and "disease free" state of life while carrying the virus.

Hepatitis B and or C. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_hepatitis Nuff said.

HIV. Not full blown AIDS, but HIV infection. Magic Johnson. Who knows; maybe the virus in TWD may eventually overwhelm the host's immune system and then everyone is a zombie. New meaning to TWD, eh?

Also: Don't be so human centric. What about foot and mouth disease? Humans can't be infected by foot and mouth disease, but humans can be the vector for the animal to animal transfer. Maybe the human cells can fight off the virus while maintaining specific oxygen or pH levels, but soon after passing the virus takes over? The idea is that there is a tremendous variety of virus types out there, maybe this virus can't hurt a human while living, but shortly after, ...zombie.(?)

Finally, some sciencey links.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19948378
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17022036
http://www.virologyj.com/content/2/1/82
http://vir.sgmjournals.org/content/72/7/1579.abstract
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 5/abstract

It is possible. It is also possible that I win the lottery too.

[Roger Brough]

New to the shorthand of IRL so apologies. All we do is real life. The disease man at work tells me ALL is risk. Wih any sickness, better to be real young and strong than real old and weak. The rest is topics either very specialized, or here. People can work a real good plan for a campout for 10 days, or less; or have the mean spirit to stay alive off other's resources, this too a metaphor in the sense that germs carry. The available info points out, again and again, that despite the clime and place, a contagion will weaken the populace. History of warfare points to casualties, and over thousands of years, simplifies: "The skinny die and the fat get skinny."

The fight will not be heroic like a battle, but increasingly symbolic, and yet the living will still die. Take for instance a terrible disease like HIV. More and more, you will see the signal of the rainbow asking you to celebrate. Even the atheist and scientist knows the butthole is not a vagina. Species fail this test.

And so the discussion of survival becomes politic, the germ feared by all for concern of being offensive.

Germs carry. Be afraid. Not with a bang but a whimper...

[RickOShea]

My hands are up, empty palms exposed....And I'm slowly backing out of this thread.

[duodecima]

Wih any sickness, better to be real young and strong than real old and weak.

Well, unless we're talking the 1918 pandemic influenza strain, which killed far more of the young and strong, because (it is theorized) the virus triggered such a strong reaction from the immune system that the immune reaction itself was deadly. Any good theory of zombie as a viral disease also has to take into account the human immune system and its variations.

Asymptomatic carrier, or variable degree of illness from same infection, does not adequately explain why a bite should cause a person to turn, imo.

Best almost-good-enough explanation I've seen yet was in Mira Grant's novel "Feed." Where she did, virologically, explain why death with intact brain OR bite from zombie both caused a person to turn into a zombie, with a minimum of handwavium. I am waay too tired and have to work in the morning, so you're going to have to go read the first couple chapters yourself to find her explanation. It's a great book in any case.

[arrowolf]

My thinking is that the original disease agent was 2 different strains, something akin to the active and inactive forms of TB. In the first episode, Morgan talks about the fever which killed you then came the re-animation. Those people were infected with the active strain. It's the active strain that causes the after-death effects. The rest of the population who did not succumb to the active strain were infected with the inactive or latent form of the causal agent. It's present in the body but shows no symptoms. Death either by bite or whatever apparently causes the latent form to become the active type.

[Liff]

So the problem in healthcare is thinking in absolute terms. Generally, it is normally best to avoid almost all absolute terms. For example; smoking. Sometimes it is medically advisable to continue smoking. No shit.

Clozapine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000893/

tell your doctor if you use tobacco products. Cigarette smoking may decrease the effectiveness of this medication.

The other side of this statement is; stopping smoking may (will) increase the effectiveness of this medication. Too much of this medicine can lead to Agranulocytosis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agranulocytosis You can die from agranulocytosis. So if a patient is stable on clozapine and the patient is a smoker, maintain smoking to avoid agranulocytosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16044115
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20233914

So absolute terms in medicine are generally bad and should be avoided, like this one:

Wih any sickness, better to be real young and strong than real old and weak.

Not so much. Autoimmune disorders is where your immune system fights your body. Viruses (Viri) can lead to autoimmune diseases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8994870
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/11/ ... rticle.htm
So, sometimes it is better to have a weaker immune system to avoid the damage form disease. That is a crazy statement, right? Nah. We even make medicine to inhibit the functioning of the immune system to mitigate the effects of the disease. Like this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000219/ there are more, but this is getting too long. You all get the idea to avoid making absolute statements when talking about health or disease.

"The skinny die and the fat get skinny."

Diabetes. Enough said.

Even the atheist and scientist knows the butthole is not a vagina.

It can be. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fistula_of ... _intestine Sorry about bringing this up if for nothing other than the mental image.


I am assuming there isn't any homophobia in your post Roger Brough. For everyone else, may I suggest that the same assumption is made so this thread does not get L&B. Thanks.

[Caenus]

My undergrad is Microbiology and I worked in a recombinant DNA lab in college.

HIV is a good example of a virus that can exist without disease. Herpes is a good example too. Also look up the polio vaccine.

Its been a while so I apologize if any of this is inaccurate: Herpes is probably a good analogy. It will "hibernate" in nerve cells, integrating its DNA in the cells DNA until some sort of systemic stress allows it to get an upper hand on the bodies immune system that normally keeps it in check. That's why when someone gets stressed (physically or emotionally) they have a breakout. Remember the guy from Something about Mary? Extreme Hollywood, but it's rooted in fact.

As far as the bite goes. It is possible that a massive dose stresses the system and allows the virus to take over. Of course that SHOULD mean that when T-dog cut his arm, Randall impaled himself on an arrow and the other kid impaled his leg on the fence (not to mention the kid getting shot) the virus should have overtaken them. It's TV, not science.

[Krustofski]

People have already thrown a lot of keywords for further research at you. Long incubation times, asymptomatic carriers, Typhoid Marry (seriously, read the wiki article on her!) and whatnot.Good stuff, all of it. I just want to make a minor, additional point:

Pure mechanical transmission. This is something people often forget. Probably because it's not that important in terms of sheer numbers.
When you're stung by a mosquito carrying Plasmodium and get malaria from it, that little parasitic buggers actually live in the salivary glands of the insect. That means the mosquito is actually infected with parasites, it just doesn't get ill from it. That's not pure mechanical transmission.
If on the other hand you discover wheals all over you and then find the bed bugs that have been drinking your blood for days, you may do some research and find in most textbooks that bedbugs don't transmit any infectious dissease. You would be wrong. There is still such thing as a pure mechanical transmission, bacteria that live on the outside of the bug's mouthparts get into the wounds they produce, and may even cause serious systemic infections if you're really unlucky. It's unlikely, but possible.
So that's a way how someone who does not even have a dissease may still spread it. By simply smearing germs that have not even breached their barriers into the open wound of another.

That does of course not answer you question of "how is being bitten by someone with the virus going to do anything if you already got it anyway?" I don't have a definite answer, but it reminds me of a peculiar problem with HIV: Different strains of the HI virus show very diferent incubation times and probabilities to cause full-blown AIDS. That is why if both you AND you partner are HIV+, it is STILL adviseable to use protection, because the strains the other person has might just act so much more aggressive in you. That is true even if you have the same strains because you got it from each other in the first place, because the virus just mutates at an incredible rate.

ETA: Actually, I got my terminology wrong. There are only two major types of HIV, which are further divided into groups and sub-groups. But the point remains the same.

[Caenus]

Oh, one more thing to add: the route of infection can sometimes define the effects a virus or bacteria have. (drinking contaminated water vs introduction through a wound, inhalation, mucous membranes, etc).

[whisk.e.rebellion]

The fight will not be heroic like a battle, but increasingly symbolic, and yet the living will still die. Take for instance a terrible disease like HIV. More and more, you will see the signal of the rainbow asking you to celebrate. Even the atheist and scientist knows the butthole is not a vagina. Species fail this test.

I know you've been spoken to. I'm going to advise you to read our rules one last time before you end up permanently banned from our forums.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

My first thought at the TWD description was malaria. The 'skeeters carry it, but do not contract it. Now, imagine something similar, where the [virus/bacteria/w/e] is carried, but not in the blood stream. When you die, for some reason, the virus crosses the barrier into the bloodstream, likely when the body becomes too weak, but before actual death. Through the blood, it moves to the neural passages and does the nasty work. The bite itself would just dump it into the bloodstream, and weaken the system as well.

[Krustofski]

My first thought at the TWD description was malaria. The 'skeeters carry it, but do not contract it. Now, imagine something similar, where the [virus/bacteria/w/e] is carried, but not in the blood stream. When you die, for some reason, the virus crosses the barrier into the bloodstream, likely when the body becomes too weak, but before actual death. Through the blood, it moves to the neural passages and does the nasty work. The bite itself would just dump it into the bloodstream, and weaken the system as well.

Malaria is kind of funny. The mosquito actually IS the definitive host of Plasmodium (the parasite that causes malaria), i.e. the organism in which they become sexually mature. Humans are only intermediate hosts for some development stages that are not able to reproduce sexually yet. So, in a way, humans are the vector by which mosquitos contract Plasmodium, and malaria is just a side effect in an unimportant intermediate host, an evolutionary dead end, so to speak.

If I'm not entirely mistaken, the parasites reproduce sexually in the GI tract of the mosquito, and the (still young and asexual) offspring then moves into the salivary gland, where they linger untill the insects stings someone or something. They are injected together with the salvia (the stuff that produces the itch), go through different stages (in liver and red blood cells), reproduce asexually, untill the next mosquito stings to suck them up. So, in a way that's pretty simmilar to what you said, only what triggers the next stage of the development cycle would be the death of the host, instead of being injected into a bloodstream.


Btw., spreading of pathogens through a bloodstream is kinda difficult without working circulation. That's why I prepare for supernatural zombies instead - they are more realistic.

[Tater Raider]

I prepare for supernatural zombies instead - they are more realistic.

sigged.

[kbilly84]

IRL - In Real Life

Thanks, those are the kinds of things I am looking for. Anyone here an actual microbiologist or some such?

I'm not a Microbiologist, but I play one on TV
I did take micro and medical micro in college. I also work in a hospital lab. I'm definitely no expert on this subject, but I'd developed a theory following the episode in which Shane and Rick encountered the cops.

The bites thing can be explained similarly to the aforementioned Staph infections. EVERYONE has Staphylococcus bacteria on their skin. It's part of our natural flora (term for naturally existing germage). Normally, it's not a big deal. Get a big cut that's not properly disinfected, etc, it gets out of control in very big way. E.coli can also be example. It's naturally part of our intestinal flora. Eat a burger with a couple extra bacteria, no big deal. Eat a burger with a couple MILLION, you may just spend the next couple days on the toilet with your head in a bucket. This also can explain how carriers can handle the corpses and even get blood on them with no ill effects.

As far as someone not bitten re-animating (the cops/Shane/Randall): The virus/bacteria/prion/whatever doesn't become truly active until the person dies (or in the case of bites, the viral load is so great the body can't fend it off). So, they're carrying it, and when they die, their immune system has shut down, allowing the virus to take over. Think: rotting corpse. Bacteria are still doing their thing, even though the body's dead.

As far as how it makes the brain stem "awaken", I got nothing.

That's all purely theory and conjecture. And, as stated, I'm no expert. I will gladly burn my post if an expert finds errors in it.

[Lycosa]

The bites thing can be explained similarly to the aforementioned Staph infections. EVERYONE has Staphylococcus bacteria on their skin. It's part of our natural flora (term for naturally existing germage). Normally, it's not a big deal. Get a big cut that's not properly disinfected, etc, it gets out of control in very big way.

^This

At least that's what I was thinking. We all carry staph, but it's not until we get some kind of abrasion that allows the Staph to get in before we get infections. I watched my cousin go through a horrible bout of Staph that he had got from a supposedly 'professional tattoo artist'. A week in the hospital and quarter sized holes in his arms/legs before he finally healed up enough to be released. I remember the doctor telling us that for every crater that we saw on his arm, there were likely as many internally. Ughh..

So, I would imagine that if we want to talk zombie, then it's not impossible to have a scenario where the infection could be carried but not activated until a bite was received.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

So, I would imagine that if we want to talk zombie, then it's not impossible to have a scenario where the infection could be carried but not activated until a bite was received.

Perhaps a parasite that lies dormant, and cannot mature into the "zombie parasite" until two different stages of parasite combine, similar to the malaria bit?