*** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Discussions of the best (or worst) equipment to have on hand for use in the event of an injury during an emergency.

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CipherNameRaVeN
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*** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by CipherNameRaVeN » Sun May 16, 2010 10:28 pm

My First Aid background is basic. I am certified in First Aid and CPR by Red Cross. I did, however, learn how to apply sutures from a friend of mine who is a surgeon.

EDC FAK (left) and BOB FAK (right) - I figured I show both
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EDC FAK
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This is a very nice Condor pouch. It has a lot of front compartments that I leave empty.
When I go biking, or short hike, or somewhere where I do not need to carry my entire EDC,
I use empty compartments to put my CCs, Phone, money, etc. Small, sturdy, with lots of space.
Image
1. Sterile Trauma Pads
2. Gauze Pads
3. Gauze Bandage
4. Scissors
5. Tweezers
6. Large Patch
7. Fingertip bandage
8. Fingertip bandage - large
9. Knuckle Bandage
10. Band Aids
11. Band Aids - small
12. Square Patch
13. QuikClot
14. Moleskin Plus
15. Aspirin, Tylenol, etc.
16. Neosporin
17. My First Aid & CPR cert
18. Sterile Gloves
19. Splinter remover
20. Ammonia
21. Triple Antibacterial Ointment
22. Hydrocortisone cream
23. Hand Sanitizer
24. Alcohol Prep Pads
25. Cleaning Wipes

Bug Out Bag FAK
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1. Adhesive Waterproof Tape
2. Triangle Bandage (sling)
3. Irrigation syringe
4. Tweezers
5. Triangle Bandage
6. First Aid Guide
7. Dropper
8. Sterile Disposable Tweezers
9. Tongue Depressor
10. Surgical Mask
11. Adhesive Tape
12. Eye Wash Solution
13. Band Aids
14. QuikClot
15. Antibacterial Foam Dressing
16. Diarrhea medication, aspirin, Tylenol, ammonia
17. Face mask for CPR
18. Neosporin
19. Sterile Gloves
20. Cotton balls, Cotton swabs
21. Gauze Sponges - large
22. Trauma Pad
23. Gauze pads
24. Gauze Sponges - medium
25. Israeli Dressing
26. Triple-Antibiotic ointment, Burn Gel, Hydrocortisone cream, etc.
27. Splinter Remover
28. Sterile Pad
29. Butterfly Bandages
30. Fingertip Bandage -Large
31. Large Adhesive Patch
32. Fingertip Bandage
33. Antiseptic Swab
34. Alcohol wipes
35. Cleaning Wipe
36. Small Band-Aid
  • Moleskin - not shown (sorry)
I am planning to add a Suture Kit. But, I do not want to buy off the shelf kit. It is usually inadequate. I have done a lot of research, and will purchase everything separately from respectable sources. I try to practice suturing whenever I can. Getting anesthetic may be a problem, but I do have friends who are medical surgeons who may be able to help with that.


OK I am done for now. Please start ripping this apart as much as possible! The only way to make it better, and make me better prepared.
Last edited by CipherNameRaVeN on Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Frank » Sun May 16, 2010 10:37 pm

"ZOMG THERES NOT ENOUGH KERLIX"
is what i expect to be amongst the first posts.
KentsOkay wrote:Love how a thread on hiking somehow ends up with twisted balls and lubricating your body in animal grease.
aus.templar wrote:this thread keeps getting worse... or better, I'm not quite sure

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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by CipherNameRaVeN » Sun May 16, 2010 10:45 pm

KERLIX... Got it! Will stock up! Thanks...
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.


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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Oneswunk » Sun May 16, 2010 10:48 pm

I really like the pack you used for your bob fak. Link?

O and moar KERLIX! :mrgreen:
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Frank » Sun May 16, 2010 10:55 pm

that was a joke post..there are many other substitutes for that..
i have recently fallen in love with these...i cant wait for the next paycheck to make an order
http://www.chinookmed.com/cgi-bin/item/ ... ----------" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
heres the vid link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4XJx1PoivQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the fact that you can pack and wrap all in one package just seems amazing to me
some of these maybe?
http://www.chinookmed.com/cgi-bin/item/ ... ----------" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or some of these
http://www.chinookmed.com/cgi-bin/item/ ... ----------" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and the 5X9's are only .17$
http://www.chinookmed.com/cgi-bin/item/ ... ----------" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kerlix rolls are great and all...but in my opinion are a bitch to pack.

i bought some waterproof tape also..and it really does suck...i thought it was going to be the best thing ever but it isnt..
1. if wet even a little it begins to come off...think blood or sweat
2.sweat will ruin it..
3. they are usually made with rubber which i guess is bad if you want to help people with that allergy?
4. get some strong cloth tape..it is much better


if you want you can make a test...tape up both on your arm and run it under water...see how long both will stick


5. i guess it is stronger which would help if your making splints..
KentsOkay wrote:Love how a thread on hiking somehow ends up with twisted balls and lubricating your body in animal grease.
aus.templar wrote:this thread keeps getting worse... or better, I'm not quite sure

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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by CipherNameRaVeN » Sun May 16, 2010 10:59 pm

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemDeta ... =Molle-453" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Price: $11.97
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by AlmostJesus » Sun May 16, 2010 11:00 pm

Tape in your edc, get some durapore or transpore
You dont need sterile gloves, but those dont look to sterile, anything in a prehospital is going to be a clean procedure, not a sterile one
I wouldnt worry about a suture kit, yes, you were taught how to do it, but unless things really hit the fan you are really opening yourself up for liability if you were to suture something (plus a lot of pain), there are better directions to spend your money. If I were to spend the money, I would get some steri-strips and some tincture of benozin and that will cover any wound closure in your realm, even in a SHTF situation.
Be careful with the quikclot, put in some more 4x4 or kerlix
The splinter removal kit and the tweezers are redundant, if it is an EDC, you want to have multiuse items
Generally from what I have picked up, Ammonia inhalants have kind of gone the way of the dinosaur
Much of this can go towards your BOB kit too, eliminate redundancy, you want it to be light, stay away from the department of redundancy department.
Good work though
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Oneswunk » Sun May 16, 2010 11:01 pm

Thanks for the link.
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by CipherNameRaVeN » Mon May 17, 2010 8:18 am

AlmostJesus wrote:...Be careful with the quikclot...
Please explain.
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Dogan » Wed May 26, 2010 2:15 pm

CipherNameRaVeN wrote:
AlmostJesus wrote:...Be careful with the quikclot...
Please explain.
Don't think of or use it as a HD blood loss controller. It is, after all, in essence an advanced Styptic pencil(easy way to remember: it's a big styptic pencil- use it for big shaving cuts). Use it for shallow, non-life threatening wounds like scalps. It has issues with people on Coumadin and the like. Use it only for topical stuff, no penetrations or puntures or gapers. Also, i don't think it has FDA approval, and some people will undoubtedly be allergic to it. An FDA approved (i think) alternative is Celox, which is also hypoallergenic.
And all the chemical blood stoppers i have tried on myself burn like hell, so it would not be a good idea on anyone where you need them to not move (suspected spine/neck injury, for example) or if they are likely to go into shock due to an overload of stimuli. And if the patient thrashes and gets quickclot or almost any other chemical into your eyes you may be blinded, temporarily or permanently. Either way, it would seriously screw up your day.

You need a reliable, shock resistant (and in my experience waterproof) flashlight in your FAK. Something along the lines of a Stylus(2 cell AAA, 24 lumens for 7 hrs), Led Minimag (2 cell AA, about 30+ lumens for 3+ hours), or Pelican 2360(2 cell AA, 95 lumens for 2 hrs), or 2410 (4 AA, 84 lumens for 32 hrs) would be advisable. Try to stay with common cells (AA, AAA, C, D) so that if your light dies it is easier to bum/scavenge/send someone to get batteries than with a specialized cell like a CR123A or AAAA or button cell.


EDIT: Basically, QuikClot is a cane, not a crutch. It's great and can save a lot of pain, but don't rely on it to hold all your weight, cause bad things will happen when it doesn't.
Last edited by Dogan on Thu May 27, 2010 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by CipherNameRaVeN » Wed May 26, 2010 2:25 pm

I'll keep it in mind.

I am planning to get a small light for both FAKs.
Thanks
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Phaedrus » Wed May 26, 2010 9:08 pm

I haven't use any of them yet but I have 3 bags/sponges of the newest formulation of Quik Clot Sport and Quik Clot Travel. Z-Medica claims these formulations, along with the ACS version, have reduced the exothermic reaction to the point that the temp never gets over 105 degrees. Perhaps I should sacrifice one and put it in some water to verify this claim. My sole concern with using them, and one I've not yet found a conclusive answer to despite much searching and reading, is that particles of the QC might break free and cause an embolism. Rumor from the military is that this happened with the old granular form, resulting in a number of fatalities. I can't confirm that this is true. Bagging it as they do in the current product is supposed to mitigate the problem; I can't confirm that, either. It's really frustrating not knowing whether I'd be helping someone or hurting them by using the QC. Part of me thinks that if it really was an issue we'd know it by now since those sponges have been on the market for a few years. But then I remember Vioxx...

The guys at Celox are unequivocal in stating that Celox will not cause an embolism. They claim that chitosan contains no pre-clotting agents, thus can't migrate and cause problems. They also claim that small particles of kaolin (as used in QC) can do this. Of course, they're competitors, but that rings true with the claims of fatal complications of the original QC granules. The more I research the less I'm sure about QC.

I will say however that I've used Hemcon bandages on myself. They work very well. As for an embolism, well...I'm not dead. Not yet, anyways...

If I never post again that might be conclusive evidence, though. :lol:
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Phaedrus » Wed May 26, 2010 9:12 pm

BTW, I've taken the QC's out of my IFAK and replaced them with 2 of the 4x4" Hemcon bandages. I also carry 3 of the 2 gram Celox granules. That might not be quite enough to pack a deep gusher but should work for lacs, road rash, etc. If I can make the space in my kit maybe I'll add a large pack of Celox, just not sure if I can make room for a Celox-A. My IFAK rides in a Maxpedition F.I.G.H.T. pouch, fairly roomy but pretty full already. I think there's a few tweaks I could make re-balance it. Right now I think I have a bit too much gauze & dressings and not quite enough meds & tools.
Meat N' Taters wrote:
Red_Ramage wrote:Dr. Bear Grylls disagrees with all of you
Well, let him put Tylenol Gel-Caps in his shitter all day long. As for me, I'll use as directed. :)

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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Spectre7 » Wed May 26, 2010 9:37 pm

In theory, the granular QuickClot could cause an embolism. The military is currently working with HemCon and Combat Gauze. Combat Gauze is manufactured by QuickClot and is currently the material of choice for stopping major bleeding in many differnet types of wounds found on the battlefield. It has 510(k) clearance from the U.S. Food & Drug Administration and the United States Department of Defense has awarded Z-Medica a $3.2 million grant for large-scale testing of the product on penetrating wounds.
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Phaedrus » Wed May 26, 2010 10:00 pm

At the risk of being too anal, I understand the Combat Gauze is impregnated with QC- is the dressing really going to prevent tiny particles of kaolin from migrating from the wound area? Just how big of a chunk would it take to cause an embolism? Hemcon also makes a hemostatic-impregnated gauze, as does Celox. The latter even makes a guaze-like roll that's entirely composed of chitosan. I'm not questioning your claim that the miltary is using it, I know they are. I just wonder if there'll be negative consequences a couple years down the road. Probably an acceptable risk for treating a soldier with a leg wrecked by an IED or 7.62x39 round. But would you use it on a civilian cut up in a biking accident? Close to help (eg. assisting an injury at my local dog park, traffic accident in town, etc) I'd probably just slap some Kerlix on it & wrap it with an Ace bandage, knowing help was on the way. On a backpacking trip where evac might take a day or two, I just don't know...might be worth the risk.
Meat N' Taters wrote:
Red_Ramage wrote:Dr. Bear Grylls disagrees with all of you
Well, let him put Tylenol Gel-Caps in his shitter all day long. As for me, I'll use as directed. :)

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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Spectre7 » Wed May 26, 2010 10:44 pm

Yea I understand exactly what you're saying. All of these hemostatic agents have those types of risks, and I agree with your choice. If I were treating an injury from a car accident or some other incident, I'd just go for Kerlix. I'm sure that the military just deems the risk acceptable for the combat zone. If it were a SHTF scenario I'd go for the hemo agents, and I would feel comfortable with applying something like combat gauze to a pt. if the evac time was really delayed. I'm reluctant to use it unless it is a life or death situation.

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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Phaedrus » Thu May 27, 2010 12:52 am

I kind of feel like I wasted my money on the QC stuff- 3 sponges = $30 that could have went towards something I'm not afraid to use. Oh well- live and learn, I suppose. Instead of pitching it I'll probably save keep it around in the event of a real SHTF emergency. But for regular 1st aid I think I'll stick with Hemcon and Celox at least until I can find conclusive evidence that QC won't do more harm than good.
Meat N' Taters wrote:
Red_Ramage wrote:Dr. Bear Grylls disagrees with all of you
Well, let him put Tylenol Gel-Caps in his shitter all day long. As for me, I'll use as directed. :)

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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by CipherNameRaVeN » Thu May 27, 2010 9:58 am

Now you guys got me a little worried. I have used QC before on myself when I had a minor cycling accident. I did not have all that big of the wound... more like a road rash, but it bled profusely. I just wanted to test it out on some sort of wound. No problem! Worked like a charm.
Can embolism happen with small wound where arteries are not involved?
Can I keep on using QC on heavily bleeding wound which is just a large flash wound let's say?
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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Ovationman » Thu May 27, 2010 2:30 pm

I would love to see any evidence that QC or Celox causes complications. Both are FDA cleared for treatment of hemorrhage and have therefore gone through safety tests. Yes there could still be risks that we are not aware of but I will take the chance if and when I see the need.

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Re: *** CipherNameRaVeN' FAK - PIC Heavy - Critique Welcome

Post by Phaedrus » Thu May 27, 2010 9:42 pm

I'm probably just being a worry-wart, CipherNameRaVeN. There's so much rumor and innuendo out there, and I don't want to add to it, and you shouldn't let chatter on the interwebs get you too concerned. The word I heard was that the US military switched to the sponges to prevent that problem, and it seems it works. So I'm not trying to scare anyone. It would seem the risks would be small, especially as you say, applied to a knee. One would think it would riskier to apply to a femoral artery or some other high volume part of the circulatory system. How long ago did you use it? Was it the newer recipe or the old, scalding-hot one?

Ovationman, I realize it's been tested, but supposedly so was Vioxx. In my mind the FDA has transitioned from being a consumer protection agency to a marketing partner for Big Pharma.

All that said I've never seen a single, provable verified case in a medical journel or newspaper of someone dying as a result of an embolism caused by migrating kaolin from QC. Not a one. I've seen references made in documents I've read but nothing that says "A-HA! This stuff's dangerous." I don't think QC should be lumped in with Celox, though- they use a completely different mechanism. And Celox is biocompatible- it's supposed to be convert into a carbohydrate or something and be absorded by the body. QC has to be debrided out of the wound. I think that's the source of the concern.
Meat N' Taters wrote:
Red_Ramage wrote:Dr. Bear Grylls disagrees with all of you
Well, let him put Tylenol Gel-Caps in his shitter all day long. As for me, I'll use as directed. :)

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