Pain killers and the like.

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Apollo-11
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Post by Apollo-11 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:35 am

crypto wrote: Just to keep this on-topic, it is worth noting that it is all right to take the maximum doses of multiple types of OTC pain relievers.

For instance, if acetaminophen alone isn't getting the job done, you can simultaneously take the labeled dosage of aspirin, and ibuprofen, and naproxyn as well. Doing that is going to be easier on your stomach than just taking 800mg of ibuprofen 3x a day every time you twist an ankle.
Just don't go over the max dosage of Tylenol! This can lead to serious problems like kidney or liver failure (especially if you drink).

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Post by JIM » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:29 am

Apollo-11 wrote:
crypto wrote: Just to keep this on-topic, it is worth noting that it is all right to take the maximum doses of multiple types of OTC pain relievers.

For instance, if acetaminophen alone isn't getting the job done, you can simultaneously take the labeled dosage of aspirin, and ibuprofen, and naproxyn as well. Doing that is going to be easier on your stomach than just taking 800mg of ibuprofen 3x a day every time you twist an ankle.
Just don't go over the max dosage of Tylenol! This can lead to serious problems like kidney or liver failure (especially if you drink).
Don't go over the max dose of ANY OTC! Ibuprofen can burn a very nice hole in your stomach when used to much (or even with 'normal' dosage)
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Post by crypto » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:20 pm

I offered the practice of mixing OTC pain meds as a specific counter against over-dosing on one particular med.

God knows I've taken handfuls of motrin before, way over the OTC dose. My stomach tolerates it pretty well, but not everyone's does.
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Post by Ellie With An Axe » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:46 am

I've been wishing for awhile that somebody would make a new painkiller for OTC. Everything I pick up and read the label on just seems to be varying levels of acetaminophen, aspirin plus caffeine, or naproxen sodium or ibuprofen in a different package. If you've got chronic pain and your doc cuts your scrips off because s/he's worried about addiction, you're screwed even if you can get the OTC's to work, because your liver and kidneys and stomach suffer big time.

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Post by ZombieCleaner » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:02 pm

Well I'm pretty much set now.
Got the doc to write me a script for some mild/heavy painkillers for my knees (chronic pain that makes me wanna cry).
They're called "Ultram", and boy, do they work.
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Post by tehuringa » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:09 pm

In a SHTF situation there are a couple of things you can do....certain OTC painkillers contain codeine and are readily available. There is a simple technique to allow the codeine to precipitate out. Poppyseed tea is another, with the obvious benefit of being able to grow it yourself....If you want details on any of the above PM me.

You can even produce your own penicillin if you are so inclined :wink:
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Post by Czechnology » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:17 pm

tehuringa wrote:In a SHTF situation there are a couple of things you can do....certain OTC painkillers contain codeine and are readily available. There is a simple technique to allow the codeine to precipitate out. Poppyseed tea is another, with the obvious benefit of being able to grow it yourself....If you want details on any of the above PM me.

You can even produce your own penicillin if you are so inclined :wink:
Poppy tea is readily makeable from any legal poppy pods, even ornamental ones. All poppy plant sap contains at least trace amounts of opioids, and simply grinding up the pod in a coffee grinder, boiling in water, then lots and lots of straining makes a great "in a pinch" painkiller.

Though the flavor of it... god... like poison it burns me! I actually cannot drink it anymore as the smell alone makes me start gagging involuntarily.
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Post by tehuringa » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:20 pm

Czechnology wrote:
tehuringa wrote:In a SHTF situation there are a couple of things you can do....certain OTC painkillers contain codeine and are readily available. There is a simple technique to allow the codeine to precipitate out. Poppyseed tea is another, with the obvious benefit of being able to grow it yourself....If you want details on any of the above PM me.

You can even produce your own penicillin if you are so inclined :wink:
Poppy tea is readily makeable from any legal poppy pods, even ornamental ones. All poppy plant sap contains at least trace amounts of opioids, and simply grinding up the pod in a coffee grinder, boiling in water, then lots and lots of straining makes a great "in a pinch" painkiller.

Though the flavor of it... god... like poison it burns me! I actually cannot drink it anymore as the smell alone makes me start gagging involuntarily.
True mate......most poppy seeds can be used....(quick edit!!!) but some are better than others.... Papaver Somniferum is best with some of the ornamental poppies containing lesser amounts of the alkaloids required to make the tea.....some purely ornamental poppies such as Icelandic, California, Orientale are no good at all.

Does taste like shite though :?
Last edited by tehuringa on Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Czechnology » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:33 pm

tehuringa wrote:
Czechnology wrote:
tehuringa wrote:In a SHTF situation there are a couple of things you can do....certain OTC painkillers contain codeine and are readily available. There is a simple technique to allow the codeine to precipitate out. Poppyseed tea is another, with the obvious benefit of being able to grow it yourself....If you want details on any of the above PM me.

You can even produce your own penicillin if you are so inclined :wink:
Poppy tea is readily makeable from any legal poppy pods, even ornamental ones. All poppy plant sap contains at least trace amounts of opioids, and simply grinding up the pod in a coffee grinder, boiling in water, then lots and lots of straining makes a great "in a pinch" painkiller.

Though the flavor of it... god... like poison it burns me! I actually cannot drink it anymore as the smell alone makes me start gagging involuntarily.
True mate......any poppy seeds can be used. Does taste like shite though :?
Hell, I ground up the whole thing, pod walls and all. Between the seeds and the pod, you get this kinda sickly grey/brown powder. Ugh, I'm starting to get ill just thinking about making it, lol.
Nothing is ever what it seems, but everything is exactly what it is.
Vicarious_Lee wrote:If Nutnfacny were an 8-ounce chicken fried steak, he'd come with 72 ounces of batter around it that you have to slash through to get to it.

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Post by tehuringa » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:38 pm

There is some info here (and a place to buy them if you are an Aussie).....read the warnings also

http://shaman-australis.com.au/shop/ind ... h=21_35_96
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Post by Ellie With An Axe » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:25 pm

Valerian tea stinks to high hell... like skiddy underoos and cat poop... but it tastes good with a spoonful of sugar (otherwise very bitter, but not stinky-tasting). It's a very effective mild sedative, at least on me. On me it works within just an hour or two, especially if a have a big cup or two of it. I feel very smoothed-out and relaxed after awhile. I had a friend once that it did not work as well for. She would have to drink more, the effect didn't last as long, and it seemed over time like it would need to build up over several uses to have a stronger effect.

I do not drink Valerian tea very often, because in general herbal teas irritate my throat and sinuses, but IMO it's highly useful as something to give myself along with a pain killer to help relax. A huge part of the pain killing equation is to be able to just *feel* like you're going to be okay, and that's hard to do if you're completely anxious and upset about how you're feeling and what's causing it.

I wish I had some Valerian on hand tonight, honestly... I just had a molar pulled out of my mouth this morning and I think the pain scrip would not make me so goofy, and work a little longer, if I was more distracted or calm. Hence why I'm on the puter instead of lying down.

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Post by Czechnology » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:48 pm

Ellie With An Axe wrote:Valerian tea stinks to high hell... like skiddy underoos and cat poop... but it tastes good with a spoonful of sugar (otherwise very bitter, but not stinky-tasting). It's a very effective mild sedative, at least on me. On me it works within just an hour or two, especially if a have a big cup or two of it. I feel very smoothed-out and relaxed after awhile. I had a friend once that it did not work as well for. She would have to drink more, the effect didn't last as long, and it seemed over time like it would need to build up over several uses to have a stronger effect.

I do not drink Valerian tea very often, because in general herbal teas irritate my throat and sinuses, but IMO it's highly useful as something to give myself along with a pain killer to help relax. A huge part of the pain killing equation is to be able to just *feel* like you're going to be okay, and that's hard to do if you're completely anxious and upset about how you're feeling and what's causing it.

I wish I had some Valerian on hand tonight, honestly... I just had a molar pulled out of my mouth this morning and I think the pain scrip would not make me so goofy, and work a little longer, if I was more distracted or calm. Hence why I'm on the puter instead of lying down.
You can buy Valerian Root in capsules. Easier to choke down than the tea.
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Vicarious_Lee wrote:If Nutnfacny were an 8-ounce chicken fried steak, he'd come with 72 ounces of batter around it that you have to slash through to get to it.

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Post by Ellie With An Axe » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:52 pm

Czechnology wrote:You can buy Valerian Root in capsules. Easier to choke down than the tea.
Indeed. Doesn't seem to have the same effect on me, at least not as strong.

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Post by Apollo-11 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:44 am

Ellie With An Axe wrote:
Czechnology wrote:You can buy Valerian Root in capsules. Easier to choke down than the tea.
Indeed. Doesn't seem to have the same effect on me, at least not as strong.
You just have to take more of them! If I have insomnia more than 2 nights in a row, I take two, with two St. Johns Wort and I am out like you gave me Thorazine.

Glad you got the tooth taken care of... dental problems really suck.

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Post by Psyko5616 » Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:15 pm

ZombieCleaner wrote:Well I'm pretty much set now.
Got the doc to write me a script for some mild/heavy painkillers for my knees (chronic pain that makes me wanna cry).
They're called "Ultram", and boy, do they work.
I looked up Ultram and came up with Tramadol, and I don't think I've ever seen such a long list or so emphatic of warnings on Yahoo! Health before. Apparently the stuffs highly addictive, but the more warnings that are on it usually means the better it works :)

Apollo-11 wrote:
Ellie With An Axe wrote:
Czechnology wrote:You can buy Valerian Root in capsules. Easier to choke down than the tea.
Indeed. Doesn't seem to have the same effect on me, at least not as strong.
You just have to take more of them! ....
Be careful taking too much valerian, had a friend tell me that in high doses it tends to have the opposite effect. Nothing particularly dangerous, just kills the point of taking it in the first place.

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Re: Pain killers and the like.

Post by Scott Skawronska » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:43 pm

Last I checked, Whip-Its, a common recreational inhalant (Nitrous Oxide) were still legal.

They come with their own set of issues (Had a PM conversation with Gana about it some months back) including possibility of nerve/brain damage with long term use, as well as the potential for asphyxia (when not administered with 100 percent oxygen).

However, nitrous oxide is, still to this day, used in certain EMS systems for pain control.

I say again, as of this writing, it is my understanding that Whip-Its are still legal. If so, this could be an option for SHTF pain management therapy for extremely short term use (say, 1/2 hour to 3 hours, depending upon your supply).

There are hazards other than the ones already mentioned, but keep in mind that this is an EMERGENCY medical administration of a substance, and as such, you, the caregiver, must weigh the benefits of the administration of the substance vs. the hazards of said administration.

And unlike scrip meds, which, if you administer them to another person to whom they are not prescribed, are illegal, this is a theoretically legal (albeit with a different risk and pharmacokinetic index) option.

If the law has changed since I last checked, Mods, please delete this post.

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Re: Pain killers and the like.

Post by painiac » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:30 am

Scott Skawronska wrote:
And unlike scrip meds, which, if you administer them to another person to whom they are not prescribed, are illegal, this is a theoretically legal (albeit with a different risk and pharmacokinetic index) option.

If the law has changed since I last checked, Mods, please delete this post.

S
A drug is defined by federal law as a substance that effects the way the body functions, or "that is intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease". See 21 U.S.C. 321

Using the drug Nitrous Oxide as you described is the practice of medicine without a license. This is pretty illegal.
The circumstances had better justify it, that's all I'm saying.

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Re: Pain killers and the like.

Post by disgruntal » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:40 pm

Tramadol is good for chronic pain and often overlooked. Hopefully I will have prepared for PAW and squirrled away some schedule V meds from the pharm. Codiene and phenergan make a lovely cough supressant. Oil of clove works for dental pain. Different people respond to different OTC meds. Naproxen does nothing for me, but ASA and Ibuprofen work well for nsaid action and APAP for anti pyretic action. While you can switch between the nsaids to avoid toxic doses, care should really be used with APAP (acetominaphen). Current guideline say 4 grams max for sporatic use in otherwise healthy people, 3.2 grams for prolonged use in otherwise heathy people, and 2.4 grams for reanal and hepatic insuficiancey (sp?).
Ideally, I'd like to have a supply of fentanyl lollipops, versed lollipops, 500ml of roxinol 20mg/ml, zofran mlt, phenergan suppositories. As well as a supply of IV meds. But push comes to shove, willow bark will suffice.
Last edited by disgruntal on Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pain killers and the like.

Post by JIM » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:44 pm

+2 on Tramadol
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Re: Pain killers and the like.

Post by painiac » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:05 pm

You really shouldn't be mixing NSAIDs because although they are different drugs, they have similar and cumulative effects. All NSAIDS carry the risk of ulceration of the GI tract. Mixing them can greatly increase the risk of both ulceration and bleeding complications.

Narcotics are good for what they do, but they don't last very long, and it's easy to overdose. If the patient's breathing rate drops to 12 or below after being given a narcotic, it's a safe bet that they've overdosed to the point of respiratory failure. If you're administering narcotics, you should also have the antidote, Narcan (Naloxone) on hand. Ideally this is administered intravenously, but it can be injected subcutaneously or intramuscularly. There is also a nasal mist form available for use outside a hospital setting, but I haven't used this one.

While we're on the subject of antidotes, Grin Reaper mentioned the extreme usefulness of antianxiety drugs. It's a good idea to have the benzodiazepine antidote on hand, also. For this, we use "Amazing" Romazicon (Flumazenil).

As far as pain control goes, I'm a big fan of Toradol (Ketorolac). I've seen it work on people when morphine wouldn't. I frown on my patients being in pain, so that's a plus for me. Toradol is non-narcotic. It's an NSAID. It's also a heavy-hitter, so you need a prescription to obtain it. We won't use it for more than 5 days, because it can be hard on the liver and especially on the kidneys, so you shouldn't take it if you're dehydrated or if you have bad kidneys. (One time I saw it throw an old person into acute kidney failure from just one dose). That being said, though, it is excellent.

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Re: Pain killers and the like.

Post by JägerZ » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:33 pm

As a chronic pain sufferer, oxycodone is my regular. I keep a small supply (in a properly labeled script bottle of course) in my FAK.
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Re: Pain killers and the like.

Post by disgruntal » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:18 am

I was at the grocery store and looked at the cryo wart treatments.They use dimethyl ether and propane. Very interesting.

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Re: Pain killers and the like.

Post by donjulio » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:58 am

disgruntal wrote:I was at the grocery store and looked at the cryo wart treatments.They use dimethyl ether and propane. Very interesting.
Sounds combustable.
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Re: Pain killers and the like.

Post by Psyko5616 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:14 am

Scott Skawronska wrote:Last I checked, Whip-Its, a common recreational inhalant (Nitrous Oxide) were still legal.


S
I think they come with a warning now that they're not supposed to be used that way...some kind of offense. Also, isn't nitrus oxide Laughing Gas? As such it should be noted the deminished capacity it will cause you if you use it. In some cases thats acceptable, but people trying it need to understand they'll be dippy and not clear headed for a while, not always a good thing to be in a survival situation.

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