OTC anti-biotics

[Veritas]

I don't know if that is necessarily true about "modern" antibiotics ... All of them are terribly old compared to other medications, and honestly in fifty years probably won't work at all.

Things like the sulfa drugs have been around forever, but Cipro was developed in the mid-80's, and that's just one example off the top of my head.

Huh? That was my point, Cipro was made thirty years ago...and I can't find any evidence of sulfa drugs being used before the '30's.

We are still getting new arthritis, anti-inflammatory, and anti-cancer meds, but no new antibiotics. Compound that with the increase in multiple drug resistances and you have a bad prognosis for continued use of these drugs. I don't believe there is any controversy there...

[Caenus]

Veritas, what are your credentials? Just curious.

I agree that stockpiling antibiotics is not an efficient use of resources or time. Sure it would be nice to have something provided you were wounded and needed the extra coverage, but in reality the logistics of keeping the proper antibiotics is probably not feasible. Antibiotics cannot usually just be thrown in a bag and kept in a hot trunk/garage/closet, etc. Most will need to be kept refrigerated, better yet frozen. Are you going to remember to grab your antibiotics from the freezer on your way out the door? I won't. Unfortunately, although beneficial, it is fairly impractical to include antibiotics in your BOB.

Infection of a combat wound was a significant killer during wars prior to WWII. Antibiotics were a breakthrough in battlefield medicine and battlefield evac techniques and the advance of trauma medicine all play a part in reducing death from combat wounds.

I also want to add that the presence of antibiotics does not magically transform some bacteria into resistant organisms. The resistance is a function of selection. They kill off the strains that are susceptible leaving only the resistant strains. In every population there is a percentage that has some mutation that makes it resistant to the action of the antibiotic (usually inhibiting an enzyme necessary for a vital function in the bacteria). Sometimes this is a beneficial defect in the bacterias cellular membrane, a coating that protects the bacteria and prevents uptake of the antibiotic, etc. Most immune systems can handle what's left over.

(B.S. Microbiology, The University of Arizona (pathogenic bacteriology, epidemiology, mycology, virology...and other "ologies"). 4 years of industry experience in the development of pharmaceuticals)

[Veritas]

I agree Caenus, and appreciate your well-worded post.

Why am I labeled a pompous ass for having a strong opinion about this? I feel like Al Gore, only with much less accomplishments...

Caenus is right, drug resistance doesn't happen magically. In fact, that isn't even the point I am trying to make anymore. It really comes down to practicality, which I noticed you mentioned as well. So I think we have some common ground there.

[honeybadger65]

I also want to add that the presence of antibiotics does not magically transform some bacteria into resistant organisms. The resistance is a function of selection. They kill off the strains that are susceptible leaving only the resistant strains. In every population there is a percentage that has some mutation that makes it resistant to the action of the antibiotic (usually inhibiting an enzyme necessary for a vital function in the bacteria). Sometimes this is a beneficial defect in the bacterias cellular membrane, a coating that protects the bacteria and prevents uptake of the antibiotic, etc. Most immune systems can handle what's left over.

100% correct. I had a lecture last week on antibiotic resistance and this is what my professor told me.

It was quite a fun week actually. we shocked E. coli bacteria with plasmid pJE202 in order to give the bacteria resistance to ampicillin and also the ability to bioluminesce. Gotta love bio labs

[Apollo-11]

There are some things in this thread that frighten me!

Doctors (& vets) use certain antibiotics for certain infections and the wrong choice can mean you take all the risks of side effects/allergic reactions and get no benefit.

Generally if you allergic to a beta-lactam antibiotic you are allergic to the whole group. Generally that would mean ALL penicillins and cephlasporins.

The harm you can do to yourself is likely not due to lack of potency but the other things put in these to make them palatable for dogs or water soluble. What if you have an allergy? You can go on and develop one even if you have had a drug before (infect your body can't be allergic to something it's never been in contact with) so you could have had a drug once in the past (and be fine) yet go into anaphalactic shock alone with your fish pills and your airway closing. Good luck with that!

These are not fish pills or dog pills. They are human-grade pills, identical to the ones you would get at the hospital or pharmacy. There are no extra binders or additives. The pills are identical, and have been positively identified using online pill identification guides using the markings, shapes, and colors of the pills. The difference is that they are not labeled for human consumption and do not have any of the usual warnings or dosage instructions.

[Apollo-11]

http://www.aqua-mox.com.

Disclaimer: During the case where regular medical care is available, you should of course consult with an MD and get a regular, legal prescription from a pharmacy.

Verified that their Sulfa is identical to the human-grade sulfa 800 mg.

[DannusMaximus]

They aren't useless, they are just not worth the trouble. I don't stock them, and I don't plan to. Nobody I know is considering stocking them as part of any kind of preparedness plan either.

I am not saying antibiotics don't work, that would be very ignorant. I am just saying that the effort put into understanding their use, and then keeping an adequate supply/variety is effort best put towards other preparations. If you play poker, I would say it is a negative EV decision.

It kinda sounds like you ARE saying they don't work (or that they're really hard to figure out AND are of very limited usefullness), so what's the point of having them?

Finding the exact right dosage of the exact right antibiotic for the exact infection you're attempting to fight could be difficult in the PAW, and, as you point out, would involve the need for a substantial initial investment in education and/or equipment which might better be spent on other prep activities.

However, I think most preppers are interested in having 1, maybe 2 types of broad spectrum antibiotics at most, and determining a generic therapeutic dosage (based on body weight?) using pills with known amounts of these substances doesn't seem outside the ability of the average person. Ditch medicine (or PAW medicine, if you prefer) isn't an exact science. It's taking steps that might not be pretty or might not be clinically perfect to attempt to treat disease and injuries. Antibiotics are very cheap, easy to store, have known side effects you can take into consideration, and might help to prevent a routine infection from becoming life-threatening. What's not to like?

Got a really bad cut in the PAW? Wash it well. Make sure you have clean bandages and dressing. Monitor it. Use good hygiene. Perhaps give a basic treatment schedule of your antibiotics as a 'just in case'. That seems reasonable to me, and like it would be worth the minor hassle of getting the meds in the first place.

ETA: You aren't coming off as a pompous ass as far as I'm concerned. It simply seems like there is probably a happy middle ground between "Don't stock antibiotics -- they're often worthless and difficult to use correctly" and "I'm stocking antibiotics, so in the PAW I can just loll around in my own filth all day and not have to worry about getting sick!"

[Apache]

There are some things in this thread that frighten me!

Doctors (& vets) use certain antibiotics for certain infections and the wrong choice can mean you take all the risks of side effects/allergic reactions and get no benefit.

Generally if you allergic to a beta-lactam antibiotic you are allergic to the whole group. Generally that would mean ALL penicillins and cephlasporins.

The harm you can do to yourself is likely not due to lack of potency but the other things put in these to make them palatable for dogs or water soluble. What if you have an allergy? You can go on and develop one even if you have had a drug before (infect your body can't be allergic to something it's never been in contact with) so you could have had a drug once in the past (and be fine) yet go into anaphalactic shock alone with your fish pills and your airway closing. Good luck with that!

These are not fish pills or dog pills. They are human-grade pills, identical to the ones you would get at the hospital or pharmacy. There are no extra binders or additives. The pills are identical, and have been positively identified using online pill identification guides using the markings, shapes, and colors of the pills. The difference is that they are not labeled for human consumption and do not have any of the usual warnings or dosage instructions.

You can tell all that from looking at a picture?

Google "fake pharmaceuticals" - it a whole industry

[Apollo-11]

Sorry dude. I am holding them in my hand. They are real.

[Apache]

Sorry dude. I am holding them in my hand. They are real.

I don't doubt their existence, I just wouldn't trust they contain what they claim.

[Apollo-11]

Heh. So you are saying that a respectable, large vet-met supply company would dare substitute fake pills for real ones to save a buck? Do you know how much money people tie up in animals? Livestock, koi, racehorses, pets, show dogs... Apparently you need to spend some time down at the veterinarian's office. People in the US spend more on their pets than they do on themselves!

[Apache]

Heh. So you are saying that a respectable, large vet-met supply company would dare substitute fake pills for real ones to save a buck? Do you know how much money people tie up in animals? Livestock, koi, racehorses, pets, show dogs... Apparently you need to spend some time down at the veterinarian's office. People in the US spend more on their pets than they do on themselves!

Oh the irony.



(I am a vet)

[Veritas]

It simply seems like there is probably a happy middle ground between "Don't stock antibiotics -- they're often worthless and difficult to use correctly" and "I'm stocking antibiotics, so in the PAW I can just loll around in my own filth all day and not have to worry about getting sick!"

Found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbn75LITtlc

Problem solved.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

Personally I'm more of a hurricane/earthquake/chemical fire prepper than an EOTWAWKI prepper, so that's where I'm coming from here... I don't have any Rx meds stockpiled, but I can see the value in having some antibiotics. I have a couple of anecdotes of things like bacterial ear infections that went south real fast (not that all ear infections are bacterial, or even that they need antibiotics if they are). Even with an up-to-date tetanus shot, couldn't you get a wound that gets infected that could cause you to die in less than a week (in other words, before FEMA et al. come to the rescue)?

That being said, I think it's a usually a waste of resources to buy any gear/supplies, medical or otherwise, that you haven't already taken the time to learn how to use properly.

[DannusMaximus]

It simply seems like there is probably a happy middle ground between "Don't stock antibiotics -- they're often worthless and difficult to use correctly" and "I'm stocking antibiotics, so in the PAW I can just loll around in my own filth all day and not have to worry about getting sick!"

Found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbn75LITtlc

Problem solved.

Box o' kittens, for the win!

[Apollo-11]

Found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbn75LITtlc

Problem solved.

At last, something we agree on!

[Bonecrusher Doc]

A bit off-topic but I think I have the right audience in this thread...

I watched this video: http://www.wral.com/lifestyles/healthte ... y/7063188/
and thought, "Wouldn't it be great if there was a website, where clinical trials of all kinds are listed and you can find one that suits your particular ailment?"
Well it turns out there is more than one! Here are a couple:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/
http://www.centerwatch.com/clinical-trials/listings/

Free health care! And sometimes they reimburse your travel expenses too. I'd just stay away from anything promising to "suspend the aging process."
If you are concerned about experimental drugs, there are still lots of other things in there that look harmless to me, like physical therapy studies. And if nothing else, you get to at least talk with a researcher about your condition, then you can turn down the study if you don't like it!

...OK maybe not all physical therapy studies are harmless. I did one where they stuck little needles into the muscles along my spine to measure their electrical activity... hurt like a *****! But I knew that going into it.

[Space Jockey]

I went through http://www.unitedpharmacies.com to get some medicine for a cough I've had for a few months. As a nurse my best judgment was a sort of bronchitis being the season and with my symptoms. My mother had the same thing as me. Unlike me though she went to the doctor to get it checked and got an order for Azithromycin (generic Zithromax). Lo and behold what did she have...bronchitis. So instead of spending the money to go to a doctor to tell me when I'm already pretty sure I have, I got what I needed online. Just got it in today (3 weeks after ordering, so order sooner if you need it sooner), professionally packaged, bubble sealed with all the proper printing you'd see on the back of most pill packages. It's from India but is FDA certified. I've had this occasional cough for over two months so hopefully this takes care of it like it did for my mom. I'll keep you updated.

[The Highwayman]

I went through http://www.unitedpharmacies.com to get some medicine for a cough I've had for a few months. As a nurse my best judgment was a sort of bronchitis being the season and with my symptoms. My mother had the same thing as me. Unlike me though she went to the doctor to get it checked and got an order for Azithromycin (generic Zithromax). Lo and behold what did she have...bronchitis. So instead of spending the money to go to a doctor to tell me when I'm already pretty sure I have, I got what I needed online. Just got it in today (3 weeks after ordering, so order sooner if you need it sooner), professionally packaged, bubble sealed with all the proper printing you'd see on the back of most pill packages. It's from India but is FDA certified. I've had this occasional cough for over two months so hopefully this takes care of it like it did for my mom. I'll keep you updated.

Man, are you fracken CRAZY?!?!?! You'd better delete this before the antibiotic police see it!!!

[Veritas]

Man, are you fracken CRAZY?!?!?! You'd better delete this before the antibiotic police see it!!!

Man are you crazy?!?! You used TWO smilies in that post! Whoa! I got burned! TWO SMILIES!

Besides, he/she isn't a "layman", and as you pointed out, I just have a problem with "laymen". But just to clear it all up, obviously nobody should ever use antibiotics ever, that is the point I was trying to make. Antibiotics are like LSD and powdered Hitler.

This has been a broadcast brought to you by the antibiotic police.

[The Highwayman]

Man, are you fracken CRAZY?!?!?! You'd better delete this before the antibiotic police see it!!!

Man are you crazy?!?! You used TWO smilies in that post! Whoa! I got burned! TWO SMILIES!

Besides, he/she isn't a "layman", and as you pointed out, I just have a problem with "laymen". But just to clear it all up, obviously nobody should ever use antibiotics ever, that is the point I was trying to make. Antibiotics are like LSD and powdered Hitler.

This has been a broadcast brought to you by the antibiotic police.

Gee, I don't remember referring to you, so not quite sure why you're taking my post so personally.


So, even if the condom fits, you still don't need to be a dick.

[whisk.e.rebellion]

Antibiotics are like LSD and powdered Hitler.

Godwin'd

/thread

It's over.

Kaput!

Fin!

[Veritas]

Godwin'd

I figured four pages was long enough...done.