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I'd love to hear an expansion or anyone else's thoughts/experience with this sort of thing from different perspectives.
OP, you cool with this? It seems like a fun article and fun topic.




SOWMAS wrote:Do you mind if I chime in during the discussion?
By way of medical background, I've been a WI licensed Paramedic for 10+ years, have critical care and tactical medicine endorsements, NREMT-P, CCEMT-P, FP-C, teach a variety of subjects, and I'm about 90% done with a degree in nursing. Also, 4 years in the USMC infantry. Not medical, I know, but it influenced my way of thinking quit a bit.



Makarov wrote:Interesting stuff. I've got fulltext rights from BMJ, so I actually read the whole article. I'll see what I can do to help you boys out on that.
Krustofski wrote:Dude, you're an open system which has energy pumped into it at least once a day. Entropy doesn't stand a chance. Plus, all living things are thermodynamically unstable anyway, we're held together by pure kinetics. You're not special. Um... what I'm trying to say is: Happy Birthday.


LowKey wrote:Just a regular old uneducated layman here, and this might sound silly, but wouldn't a simple test of something you might use as an improvised surgical airway be to simply put it in your mouth and try to breathe deeply through it for a few minutes?
I mean, IDK about you folks but I sure as hell wouldn't be able to get enough air through the tube of a ballpoint pen.
Maybe the tube of a fat marker......

Manliest wrote:Pretty much any pen (or a Sharpie) is a larger lumen than would be available with a needle cric. Not that I'd choose surgical cric with expedient materials over the much more common (and protocol authorized) procedure, but it's food for thought.
And now I'm getting the hell away from discussing school/work-related things on ZS, because this is supposed to be recreation.
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Rush2112 wrote:the_alias wrote:AZMedic wrote:'86 damn almost missed this cutoff. I remember baywatch ya then I became a lifeguard and was like wtf this isn't the same......
I honestly thought you were around 45 +
He's crotchety enough.
LowKey wrote:Just a regular old uneducated layman here, and this might sound silly, but wouldn't a simple test of something you might use as an improvised surgical airway be to simply put it in your mouth and try to breathe deeply through it for a few minutes?
I mean, IDK about you folks but I sure as hell wouldn't be able to get enough air through the tube of a ballpoint pen.
Maybe the tube of a fat marker......
Other thoughts: We both put this in our mouths and breathed through it. The C02 builds up rapidly, and chemoreceptor-driven air hunger sets in pretty quickly. It's a shitty airway, no doubt. You'd need to get an ambu-bag attached fairly quickly, and apply aggressive pressure ventilation immediately to overcome the small lumen. If using this with the bag, you're gonna have to jam down on the bag hard, deep, and fast to overcome the insufficiencies of the lumen. Also, maybe pack the mouth with gauze so you don't lose any pressure.
Failure to establish a patent upper airway is rare in critical care, and, therefore, emergency cricothyroidotomy is performed infrequently.
Rapid, definitive airway management is vital in many critically ill and injured patients. If endotracheal intubation cannot be established orally or nasally, cricothyroidotomy is indicated. In the prehospital setting, standard medical equipment may not be immediately available and, therefore, an airway may need to be provided with commonly available objects. Essential requirements include a good knife and a hollow device as a substitute for the tracheostomy tube. Some medical texts recommend the barrel of a ballpoint pen.12–14 However, a study in military medicine,11 based on a case report, suggests that the barrel of a ballpoint pen is not adequate in this setting and advocates the use of sports bottle straws.
This study suggests that many commercially available ballpoint pens are not suitable for use as temporary tracheostomy tubes because of either the time taken to construct the temporary tube or the marked increase in resistance as airflow increases. Two commercially available ballpoint pens appear to fulfil the criteria: the Baron retractable ballpoint and the BIC soft feel Jumbo.
Conclusion
This study examines the widespread belief that ballpoint pens can be used as substitute tracheostomy tubes in the emergency setting. This belief appears to be only partially founded. Many commercially available ballpoint pens have increased resistance to airflow at the higher flow rates necessary to produce effective ventilation. It is, therefore, essential to ensure that any object used as a temporary tracheostomy tube has the ability to perform well in comparison to commercially available cricothyroidotomy tubes. Studies on other commonly available objects may be appropriate.


acestor wrote:As far as I know reproducing medical articles for a medical journal club is legal (any lawyers out there chime in). I have access to virtually all medical articles in pdf format and can send them out if you start a journal club. Do not do emergency medicine myself (worked an emergency room years ago but not in past couple of decades) but have something to contribute. Do not have time to organize and run a journal club but could supply the articles. Could also survey a given topic and review and send the latest and best articles. Let me know as I think it is worthwhile. For instance, what is the best treatment for snake bites, do the snake bite kits work? Do we need to suture or are the tape closures sufficient for minor wounds? Should everyone carry an epipen in their first aid kit? How do you use them? What is the first aid treatment for a heart attack? How do you recognize it? What is the first aid treatment for burns? You could include sanitary topics such as purifying water, food sanitation etc. The goal would be to put together a consensus document from ZS that would be the latest and best recommendations. This is done in medicine all the time - usually by a consensus conference - with a "white paper" giving their recommendations. This would need to be a sticky, available to all. IIf you want to put together a medical journal club, count me in.




Makarov wrote:Never been in any journal club before, but I'm in. I've got access to a lot of articles due to being a nursing student(albeit on my last year, so I dunno how much access I'll have 12 months from now...)


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