Sub $100 "BORK" [first post]

[Cheapshot]

After reading this I think I need a BORK

[PistolPete]

[quote="guyinnepa"A lot of words about the difference between illegal and immoral[/quote]
We understand what you are saying, and perhaps many of us feel this way. However, the site rules are very clear.

1.) No discussion of illegal activities as a viable option.
We do not condone murder or theft or explosives so we do not appreciate them being promoted on our boards. Other illicit activities are also verboten, but these are the ones most often brought up.

Therefore if it is illegal today, we don't discuss it here. Some may view that as overly harsh, but it's a simple line everyone understands. Whether something is immoral or not after the collapse of society is inconsequential, we draw our line at whether something is currently illegal.

[zeropresence]

Another good example of a ZS thread that is new, useful and exciting getting killed by it's own rules and admins regarding a law that no one completely grasps.

[williaty]

Another good example of a ZS thread that is new, useful and exciting getting killed by it's own rules and admins regarding a law that no one completely grasps.

The problem is not the law. The problem is not that ZS follows the law. The problem is people being too uncaring and lazy to learn the law and follow it both in daily life and on ZS.

[klrvagabond]

Transmitting on bands that you don't normally have access to (or transmitting without a license) in the case of an 'actual emergency' is perfectly legal, as is using excess power if it is necessary to get the transmission through. It would be one thing if we were talking about modding a CB to transmit at 50W so we could chat with people a few states away, but a discussion on using amateur radio gear in an emergency is a different thing entirely- if you're in a life or death situation (an 'actual emergency') and all you have is a CB and soldering iron, you can do what you have to do to get heard and the FCC is ok with that.
Most crimes (murder, theft, etc) are criminal regardless of whetether it's a time of emergency, but radio comms are simply not the same and the FCC is fairly clear on that. It's perfectly fine for an amateur to own a radio that can transmit out of band or is technically capable of transmitting over 1.5KW, they just can't use it in that capacity if there's not an emergency that requires it.

[HKTackDriver]

Transmitting on bands that you don't normally have access to (or transmitting without a license) in the case of an 'actual emergency' is perfectly legal, as is using excess power if it is necessary to get the transmission through. It would be one thing if we were talking about modding a CB to transmit at 50W so we could chat with people a few states away, but a discussion on using amateur radio gear in an emergency is a different thing entirely- if you're in a life or death situation (an 'actual emergency') and all you have is a CB and soldering iron, you can do what you have to do to get heard and the FCC is ok with that.
Most crimes (murder, theft, etc) are criminal regardless of whetether it's a time of emergency, but radio comms are simply not the same and the FCC is fairly clear on that. It's perfectly fine for an amateur to own a radio that can transmit out of band or is technically capable of transmitting over 1.5KW, they just can't use it in that capacity if there's not an emergency that requires it.

This site really needs to distinguish between mala en se and mala prohibita laws. There really is a benefit to teaching people "illegal" activities, especially HAM. It may eventually draw them into being licensed at a future time. Not like its theft or murder, its air!

[Jamie]

I think that this has been a great thread so far, and has probably gotten a couple of people to buy radios and/or go for their HAM ticket...

That being said, I don't think that ZS should change/loosen the rules of the forum on discussion of illegal activities for a number of reasons:
1) the fact that usjng ordinarily illegal comms during emergencies is ok has already been gotten across...a lot
2) loosening the regs on comms discussion of illegalities and grey areas would be a slippery slope forum-wide, and every whiner would point to comms as a reason that we should be able to discuss pipe-bombs and human trafficking in the PAW
3) there is a lot to talk about having to do with comms and prep and gear and firearms and FAKs without having to delve into grey areas (or out and out illegalities)
4) this is the internet...there are likely 47,823 websites and forums devoted to the illegality you are interested in learning, or interested in sharing your knowledge, about
5) ZS works at maintaining their rep as a legitimate charity and disaster prep/relief organization, and this is harder to do if detractors can point to a forum filled with discussions about how to break the law

Jmho, ymmv, I'm not a mod or admin or BOD member...

Jamie


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[KJ4VOV]

^THIS, says it all.

[klrvagabond]

...
That being said, I don't think that ZS should change/loosen the rules of the forum on discussion of illegal activities for a number of reasons:
1) the fact that usjng ordinarily illegal comms during emergencies is ok has already been gotten across...a lot
2) loosening the regs on comms discussion of illegalities and grey areas would be a slippery slope forum-wide, and every whiner would point to comms as a reason that we should be able to discuss pipe-bombs and human trafficking in the PAW
3) there is a lot to talk about having to do with comms and prep and gear and firearms and FAKs without having to delve into grey areas (or out and out illegalities)
4) this is the internet...there are likely 47,823 websites and forums devoted to the illegality you are interested in learning, or interested in sharing your knowledge, about
5) ZS works at maintaining their rep as a legitimate charity and disaster prep/relief organization, and this is harder to do if detractors can point to a forum filled with discussions about how to break the law
...

I definitely see where you're coming from, I just feel that the radio side of things doesn't fit into the same category as 'illegal activities' because well...it's not. It certainly makes sense to prohibit talking about illegally making a full auto weapon or pipe bomb, because those activities are inherently against the law- and would be whether or not there was an emergency in place. Freebanding a radio or something is completely different than those sorts of things; it's a perfectly legal activity as long as you don't transmit- owning the parts to make an autosear or something is felonious no matter what.
While I certainly don't plan to rely on nonstandard frequencies in the event of an emergency, I like to have that capability- and the middle of an emergency isn't the time to start trying to figure out how to freeband your radio.
Just to quickly address your points:
1) I sort of disagree. I think a lot of people may understand it as "you can modify your radio during an emergency to perform outside of the normal rules" instead of "you can use you radio during an emergency however necessary, and you can modify it at any time". Even in your post you make several references to illegality and breaking the law. If you don't key up and you're not listening to cellphones it's really hard to break the law with a radio.
2) I'm not advocating loosening up talk about illegal comm activities; just suggesting that we not prohibit talk of legal activities like radio mods. They're not a grey area, they're perfectly legal.
3) I certainly agree, but just because we have some things to talk about isn't a reason to make others off limits (within the guidelines of legality and such, obviously)
4) Agreed, it just seems like this would be an appropriate place for legal emergency related radio modification talk. The same argument could be made about home canning, camping, financial planning, or any of the myriad topics discussed here every day.
5) If we're talking about _legal_ modifications and prep, we're not talking about breaking the law. Though it would be interesting to hear that amateur radio operators were being referred to as 'lawless brigands'.

Some background on my opinion: I'm really not all bent out of shape about the rule, it just doesn't make sense to me to apply it to this topic. I frankly never run much power anyway, and my only freebanded radio is a vx7r (it's the most likely to be with me). I'm an Extra class with two HTs and an ft897; my max output has never been over 100 watts.

[TaintedArt]

1) the fact that usjng ordinarily illegal comms during emergencies is ok has already been gotten across...a lot

2.) Proofread before posting.
If it’s important enough for you to post it, you probably want us to understand it. This means using proper spelling, good grammar, punctuation, and capitals if it helps with clarity. Typos happen, but full paragraphs of misspelled words with no punctuation are difficult to read and won’t be taken seriously (if anyone bothers to read them).

[majorhavoc]

1) the fact that usjng ordinarily illegal comms during emergencies is ok has already been gotten across...a lot

2.) Proofread before posting.
If it’s important enough for you to post it, you probably want us to understand it. This means using proper spelling, good grammar, punctuation, and capitals if it helps with clarity. Typos happen, but full paragraphs of misspelled words with no punctuation are difficult to read and won’t be taken seriously (if anyone bothers to read them).

This is your second contribution to the Zombie Squad forums, TaintedArt? Critizing a few typos on a post sent from an iPad using Taptalk?

FYI, we get a fair amount of atrociously written posts here, but Jamie has never authored a single one of them. I've always found his posts to be articulate, well crafted and perfectly readable. Everyone's going to slip up on the keyboard (or touchscreen) occasionally. It simply would never occur to me to critize someone for making a few minor mistakes, even if I had an army of proofreaders to ensure I would never be accused of being a hypocrite.

And if I ever do critize someone's writing, it's only in passing while making some sort of meaningul contribution to the thread topic itself. Unlike your post which appears to have absolutely no point but to lecture someone on proper grammar and readability.

Sorry pal; typos bug me too, but pointless nitpicking bothers me a whole lot worse.

[TaintedArt]

Unlike your post which appears to have absolutely no point but to lecture someone on proper grammar and readability.

Point is: it is ok to break the rules every once in a while...
Who is the MFWIC that chooses which rules?

This is your second contribution to the Zombie Squad forums, TaintedArt?

This is not a question. http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Question-Marks-Correctly
I am not your "pal".

[klrvagabond]

Unlike your post which appears to have absolutely no point but to lecture someone on proper grammar and readability.

Point is: it is ok to break the rules every once in a while...
Who is the MFWIC that chooses which rules?

I _think_ it's usually just at the mods' discretion, and on really borderline stuff they'll lock and discuss a thread before deciding. Usually it works pretty well; I just think they're less than clear on the legality of some ham topics.
I definitely see that they have some rough calls to make. On an internationally available forum such as this there's no way to keep up with the laws of every nation/state/city/county/whatever, but it's usually handled pretty well.
As far as I know no one's gotten into any hot water about discussing legally owned automatic weapons, for example, even though there are obviously places that you can't own one. There was some mod hesitation about lock picks, but I believe that's calmed down now. Explosives are pretty much a no-go even though you could potentially do all the legal stuff to own and use them, but no one seems to mind too much that they're verboten (I don't really have a need to blow stuff up so it doesn't bother me, but it might upset someone who worked in demolitions or something. Seems like a good place to draw the line from a safety perspective if nothing else).

The radio thing has always just rubbed me the wrong way. I'm obviously not in favor of some CB guy running a kilowatt linear and screwing up comms for everyone else, but I'd prefer that the ZS stance stick a little closer to "you can't talk about illegal stuff" instead of "some perfectly legal ham activities seem shady to some of us so you're not allowed to talk about them."

[KJ4VOV]

I definitely see where you're coming from, I just feel that the radio side of things doesn't fit into the same category as 'illegal activities' because well...it's not. It certainly makes sense to prohibit talking about illegally making a full auto weapon or pipe bomb, because those activities are inherently against the law- and would be whether or not there was an emergency in place. Freebanding a radio or something is completely different than those sorts of things; it's a perfectly legal activity as long as you don't transmit- owning the parts to make an autosear or something is felonious no matter what.

Not true at all. Modifications to Part 95 transmitters void their Part 95 type acceptance rendering the radio illegal for use even in its intended frequency range and modes from that point on And, as many forfeiture notices in the FCC database will attest to, mere possession is considered as prima facie evidence of use.

While I certainly don't plan to rely on nonstandard frequencies in the event of an emergency, I like to have that capability- and the middle of an emergency isn't the time to start trying to figure out how to freeband your radio.
Just to quickly address your points:
1) I sort of disagree. I think a lot of people may understand it as "you can modify your radio during an emergency to perform outside of the normal rules" instead of "you can use you radio during an emergency however necessary, and you can modify it at any time". Even in your post you make several references to illegality and breaking the law. If you don't key up and you're not listening to cellphones it's really hard to break the law with a radio.

False. See above.

2) I'm not advocating loosening up talk about illegal comm activities; just suggesting that we not prohibit talk of legal activities like radio mods. They're not a grey area, they're perfectly legal.

Again, false. This is not a gray area, this is a black & white, look it up for yourself in the Code of Federal Regulations area.

[klrvagabond]

(I'm trimming my quotes so it's not such a wall of text; feel free to refer to the above.)

Freebanding a radio or something is completely different than those sorts of things; it's a perfectly legal activity as long as you don't transmit-

Not true at all. Modifications to Part 95 transmitters void their Part 95 type acceptance rendering the radio illegal for use even in its intended frequency range and modes from that point on And, as many forfeiture notices in the FCC database will attest to, mere possession is considered as prima facie evidence of use.

I apologize for lack of clarity there; and I could be mistaken, but my understanding is that Part 95 compliance only covers the 'Personal Radio Service' services- CB, FRS, GMRS, R/C, etc. I meant to refer specifically to licensed amateurs. You're absolutely correct in that posession of modified CBs and such is a frowned upon, but I'm not aware of an amateur that's gotten into trouble for opening up MARS frequencies on a VX7r, for example. Please correct me if I'm mistaken on that, and again I apologize for being less than clear on what I was referring to.

If you don't key up and you're not listening to cellphones it's really hard to break the law with a radio.

False. See above.

2) I'm not advocating loosening up talk about illegal comm activities; just suggesting that we not prohibit talk of legal activities like radio mods. They're not a grey area, they're perfectly legal.

Again, false. This is not a gray area, this is a black & white, look it up for yourself in the Code of Federal Regulations area.

If we're referring to people modding CBs and FRS radios, I'm with you- that's pretty clear. For non-95 devices I'm pretty sure it's legal. If there's anything you know of specific to ham that I'm missing, please let me know, but I can't find anything negative about modifications in part 97 or elsewhere that's not specific to another radio service.
ETA: Terribly sorry do get off on a tangent about this stuff in a great thread; you're welcome to just PM me or we can start another thread to discuss the legality of radio mods and such if that works better.

[KJ4VOV]

(I'm trimming my quotes so it's not such a wall of text; feel free to refer to the above.)

Freebanding a radio or something is completely different than those sorts of things; it's a perfectly legal activity as long as you don't transmit-

Not true at all. Modifications to Part 95 transmitters void their Part 95 type acceptance rendering the radio illegal for use even in its intended frequency range and modes from that point on And, as many forfeiture notices in the FCC database will attest to, mere possession is considered as prima facie evidence of use.

I apologize for lack of clarity there; and I could be mistaken, but my understanding is that Part 95 compliance only covers the 'Personal Radio Service' services- CB, FRS, GMRS, R/C, etc. I meant to refer specifically to licensed amateurs. You're absolutely correct in that posession of modified CBs and such is a frowned upon, but I'm not aware of an amateur that's gotten into trouble for opening up MARS frequencies on a VX7r, for example. Please correct me if I'm mistaken on that, and again I apologize for being less than clear on what I was referring to.

If you don't key up and you're not listening to cellphones it's really hard to break the law with a radio.

False. See above.

2) I'm not advocating loosening up talk about illegal comm activities; just suggesting that we not prohibit talk of legal activities like radio mods. They're not a grey area, they're perfectly legal.

Again, false. This is not a gray area, this is a black & white, look it up for yourself in the Code of Federal Regulations area.

If we're referring to people modding CBs and FRS radios, I'm with you- that's pretty clear. For non-95 devices I'm pretty sure it's legal. If there's anything you know of specific to ham that I'm missing, please let me know, but I can't find anything negative about modifications in part 97 or elsewhere that's not specific to another radio service.
ETA: Terribly sorry do get off on a tangent about this stuff in a great thread; you're welcome to just PM me or we can start another thread to discuss the legality of radio mods and such if that works better.

The problem here though is, you're not in the ZSARC section of the forums. While this section deals with communications of all types, including amateur radio, the ZSARC is more specific to amateur radio. Here, in this section, most of the radio questions deal with GMRS/FRS/CB (all the Part 95 services) so any discussion of modifying radios in this area is probably going to generate a lot of confusion between what's legal and what isn't, and then even more discussion about why it's illegal/legal. Since ZS has very strict prohibitions against discussion of illegal activities IMHO it's better to keep all "mod" talk out of this area completely. Saves the staff some hair pulling I think and makes it clear then that what's being discussed in the ZSARC area is specific to amateur radio and legal.

[zeropresence]

(I'm trimming my quotes so it's not such a wall of text; feel free to refer to the above.)

Freebanding a radio or something is completely different than those sorts of things; it's a perfectly legal activity as long as you don't transmit-

Not true at all. Modifications to Part 95 transmitters void their Part 95 type acceptance rendering the radio illegal for use even in its intended frequency range and modes from that point on And, as many forfeiture notices in the FCC database will attest to, mere possession is considered as prima facie evidence of use.

I apologize for lack of clarity there; and I could be mistaken, but my understanding is that Part 95 compliance only covers the 'Personal Radio Service' services- CB, FRS, GMRS, R/C, etc. I meant to refer specifically to licensed amateurs. You're absolutely correct in that posession of modified CBs and such is a frowned upon, but I'm not aware of an amateur that's gotten into trouble for opening up MARS frequencies on a VX7r, for example. Please correct me if I'm mistaken on that, and again I apologize for being less than clear on what I was referring to.

If you don't key up and you're not listening to cellphones it's really hard to break the law with a radio.

False. See above.

2) I'm not advocating loosening up talk about illegal comm activities; just suggesting that we not prohibit talk of legal activities like radio mods. They're not a grey area, they're perfectly legal.

Again, false. This is not a gray area, this is a black & white, look it up for yourself in the Code of Federal Regulations area.

If we're referring to people modding CBs and FRS radios, I'm with you- that's pretty clear. For non-95 devices I'm pretty sure it's legal. If there's anything you know of specific to ham that I'm missing, please let me know, but I can't find anything negative about modifications in part 97 or elsewhere that's not specific to another radio service.
ETA: Terribly sorry do get off on a tangent about this stuff in a great thread; you're welcome to just PM me or we can start another thread to discuss the legality of radio mods and such if that works better.

The problem here though is, you're not in the ZSARC section of the forums. While this section deals with communications of all types, including amateur radio, the ZSARC is more specific to amateur radio. Here, in this section, most of the radio questions deal with GMRS/FRS/CB (all the Part 95 services) so any discussion of modifying radios in this area is probably going to generate a lot of confusion between what's legal and what isn't, and then even more discussion about why it's illegal/legal. Since ZS has very strict prohibitions against discussion of illegal activities IMHO it's better to keep all "mod" talk out of this area completely. Saves the staff some hair pulling I think and makes it clear then that what's being discussed in the ZSARC area is specific to amateur radio and legal.

Wait..... so "Communication" doesn't welcome amateur radio? I'm speechless

[Jamie]

Wait..... so "Communication" doesn't welcome amateur radio?

I'm speechless

Are you trolling, being willfully obtuse, or just too lazy to read?

Jamie



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[raptor]

Zero Presence please check your PMs.

[klrvagabond]

The problem here though is, you're not in the ZSARC section of the forums. While this section deals with communications of all types, including amateur radio, the ZSARC is more specific to amateur radio. Here, in this section, most of the radio questions deal with GMRS/FRS/CB (all the Part 95 services) so any discussion of modifying radios in this area is probably going to generate a lot of confusion between what's legal and what isn't, and then even more discussion about why it's illegal/legal. Since ZS has very strict prohibitions against discussion of illegal activities IMHO it's better to keep all "mod" talk out of this area completely. Saves the staff some hair pulling I think and makes it clear then that what's being discussed in the ZSARC area is specific to amateur radio and legal.

Good point, I hadn't considered that- I never really deal with GMRS/FRS/etc, and was just in the mindset of ham since it was a HT thread. I should've payed more attention to the forum section.
Carry on folks, nothing to see here.

[KJ4VOV]

The problem here though is, you're not in the ZSARC section of the forums. While this section deals with communications of all types, including amateur radio, the ZSARC is more specific to amateur radio. Here, in this section, most of the radio questions deal with GMRS/FRS/CB (all the Part 95 services) so any discussion of modifying radios in this area is probably going to generate a lot of confusion between what's legal and what isn't, and then even more discussion about why it's illegal/legal. Since ZS has very strict prohibitions against discussion of illegal activities IMHO it's better to keep all "mod" talk out of this area completely. Saves the staff some hair pulling I think and makes it clear then that what's being discussed in the ZSARC area is specific to amateur radio and legal.

Wait..... so "Communication" doesn't welcome amateur radio? I'm speechless

You quoted it but evidently didn't read it, so I made it easier for you to see.

[whisk.e.rebellion]

I ran out of fingers counting the number of flagged posts in this thread and, frankly, I'm disappointed in damn near everyone involved.