P.A.W.... Internet?

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P.A.W.... Internet?

Post by Ronin556 » Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:42 pm

Anyone know what the chances are of the internet being operational are in a prolonged emergency?

I'm sure dial-up would be the first to go, as phone lines jammed or were disconnected. Further down the line, they'd be unreliable due to infrastructure damage and whatnot.

But what about broadband or cable internet? Anyone know what it'd take to keep those things up and running for the purpose of communication, and/or what the likelyhood of survival is for the regularly hosted web pages?
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Post by Orson » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:08 pm

The special feature of that one guy's video camera on dawn of the dead comes to mind, hell breaks lose all over people are dying left and right, nothing really works, but after all that the internet is still up
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Post by kyle » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:16 pm

Obviously the internet will last as long as the utility that you are running it on lasts but I have no idea. Usually my phone/DSL is still up and running when the electrcity is down but I don't know how long that would last.

Here's a plan in case it goes down:
http://thetoque.com/031118/internetdown.htm
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Post by CLEAR CUT » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:16 pm

I'm pretty sure Red Panda mentioned something about the fragility of the phone network a short while back. If this is true which I have no doubt it is, there will probably be spotty outages in many different places while others may have access. I'm pretty sure this would be the same of broadband and cable as well as the lines use often travel the same routes.

I think the only other alternative may be those involving satellite dishes or some other wireless means of getting a signal out.
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Post by kyle » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:25 pm

CLEAR CUT wrote:I'm pretty sure Red Panda mentioned something about the fragility of the phone network a short while back. If this is true which I have no doubt it is, there will probably be spotty outages in many different places while others may have access. I'm pretty sure this would be the same of broadband and cable as well as the lines use often travel the same routes.

I think the only other alternative may be those involving satellite dishes or some other wireless means of getting a signal out.
Even if the phone lines didn't fail they would be over loaded.

Satellite might have a chance but I'm not sure how the technology works and what a household relys on for it to function.

Here's the post from Red Panda that you're refering to:
http://zombiesquad.theedge.net/phpbb2/v ... hp?p=36369
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Post by ghostface » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:34 am

If the internet goes down, in a non-zom related fashion, there will be a lot of bored people here... :)
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Post by Red Panda » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:04 am

I had typed up a long explanation about how ADSL is limited by distance, but it all boils down to one sentence: In the event of zombapocalypse, it will stop working as soon as the power does.

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Post by Ronin556 » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:09 am

Power won't be a long term problem though.

Saavy survivors will probably have engineers amongst them, and you could build a faraday generator and attach it to a bicycle frame, so you could generate a charge for a deep cycle or something comparable.

Then you convert it to AC, probably would have to scavenge for the AC converter, but it'd be a worth while find.

Even if you couldn't convert it into AC, a DC current will power batteries for a laptop, rechargable batteries and a few other things if I'm not mistaken.

There is also a littany of generators, fuels, and the infrastructure would still be largely in place.

So the question was more of a hypothetical - with power, would the net last indefinately?
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Post by Red Panda » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:17 am

Even with power, you'd have to have techs to maintain the telephone network, which is very, very fragile indeed.

There's a telephone technician strike going on up here right now & even though there are still thousands of people working, the system is falling way behind & people are waiting weeks & weeks for any kind of service. Imagine if only 1% of the current workforce survived a cataclysmic event & were even willing to continue doing their job?

No internet for regular schmoes like us.

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Post by kyle » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:24 am

Ronin556 wrote:Even if you couldn't convert it into AC, a DC current will power batteries for a laptop, rechargable batteries and a few other things if I'm not mistaken.
Computer equipment runs in direct current. Those big power supplies and large square lumps in laptop cables are to conver AC to DC. Wouldn't be a problem.

However, the internet will still be limited by the phone/power companies. There may be a lot of savvy folks out there with backup power (like myself) but if we can't connect to each other it doesn't matter.
Ronin556 wrote:So the question was more of a hypothetical - with power, would the net last indefinately?
The "net" isn't some central controled utility. I'm sure I'm pointing out the obvious for most people. It'll more than likely revert back to what we had in the days of BBSes except not because there is no phone line. You'll have to know where to connect if you can still. You won't be able to easy jump onto your local dial up and look up google.

I think the moral here is to download all the useful documentation you can now. :)

Packet Radio will be the internet of the apocolypse.
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Post by Red Panda » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:30 am

kyle wrote: Packet Radio will be the internet of the apocolypse.
Jeez, I really have to get out more. I almost typed that sentence into Babelfish cuz I had no idea what it meant. I had to say it to myself a couple times to understand what you were saying.

Not that you don't make sense, it's just my feeble monkey brain trying to comprehend new concepts.

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Post by Ronin556 » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:32 am

So if you're generating DC from a Faraday, will the cables that convert the voltage from AC to DC work against you?

Dosen't seem like they would, but you never know.
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Post by AEnemia » Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:32 pm

Red Panda wrote:
kyle wrote: Packet Radio will be the internet of the apocolypse.
Not that you don't make sense, it's just my feeble monkey brain trying to comprehend new concepts.

It's like this...... Back before internet, kids would get CB radios and talk over them, occassionally metting random people. Now the internet is the same thing.

So we'll go from cyber-sex to a sort of phone-sex. :P

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Post by kyle » Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:40 pm

AEnemia wrote:
Red Panda wrote:
kyle wrote: Packet Radio will be the internet of the apocolypse.
Not that you don't make sense, it's just my feeble monkey brain trying to comprehend new concepts.

It's like this...... Back before internet, kids would get CB radios and talk over them, occassionally metting random people. Now the internet is the same thing.

So we'll go from cyber-sex to a sort of phone-sex. :P
I don't think that is what RP was talking about.

Packet Radio is a method of transmitting and receiving voice, video or other information and data in a digital format, ie a series of ones and zeros. It is sent in a series of blocks or "data packets" using radio frequency communications equipment. It's like RAR for radio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_radio

Packet radio could be sent over CB frequencies but because CB radios are so popular, since they don't require a license, you will get a lot of interference. Most CB equipment isn't designed up for long range comunication anyway. You would be better off on frequences used by amature (ham) radio equipment.
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Post by BoltAction » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:57 am

The internet and electricity go hand and hand. There is another thread on these forums that discuss how long it would take before the power went out, linking to some external site where an expert predicted outages as soon as 48 hours. Remember what the “internet” is: A network of servers (computers). Working in the field, I can tell you that these wont last long w/o human intervention. Most, if all server rooms are climate controlled because of the heat the servers produce. If the power goes the air conditioning goes, and even if the server has some sort of UPS (battery backup system) it won’t last long w/o being cooled.

Another thing to remember: You might be trying to access a server that is down the street, but because of the architecture of the internet, you “bounce” all over the place before hitting it. In many cases if you trace the route to get to a computer that is connected in the house next to you, you will find that the “packets” (information) go through a network that includes computers in adjacent states before making their way back to your area. Just because you still have power in your area, doesn’t mean that your cable/dls company’s hub 3 states away is up and running. Just like a chain, if you remove a link... the chain breaks.

Summery: After the first signs of a power outage, the internet will be gone with in 12 hours of less.



Also: GPS will also soon fail after the computers that keep the satellites positioned correctly become inoperative. While I am not an expert, most of the research I have done suggests that while GPS will not immediately “disappear”. Shortly after human intervention stops, the system will become inaccurate due to satellite drift and eventually each of the (low level) satellites will burn up in the atmosphere making GPS inoperative.

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Post by kyle » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:15 am

BoltAction wrote: Also: GPS will also soon fail after the computers that keep the satellites positioned correctly become inoperative. While I am not an expert, most of the research I have done suggests that while GPS will not immediately “disappear”. Shortly after human intervention stops, the system will become inaccurate due to satellite drift and eventually each of the (low level) satellites will burn up in the atmosphere making GPS inoperative.
Welcome!

According to an aviator I know, GPS satilites are estimated to only stay functional for 6 months if regular maintenance is no longer maintained.

http://zombiesquad.theedge.net/phpbb2/v ... php?t=3678
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Post by BoltAction » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:56 am

kyle wrote:
BoltAction wrote: Also: GPS will also soon fail after the computers that keep the satellites positioned correctly become inoperative. While I am not an expert, most of the research I have done suggests that while GPS will not immediately “disappear”. Shortly after human intervention stops, the system will become inaccurate due to satellite drift and eventually each of the (low level) satellites will burn up in the atmosphere making GPS inoperative.
Welcome!

According to an aviator I know, GPS satilites are estimated to only stay functional for 6 months if regular maintenance is no longer maintained.

http://zombiesquad.theedge.net/phpbb2/v ... php?t=3678

Thanks!



Six months is a good guess because everything won’t fail at the beginning of a PAW. If we were to "shut the lights of civilization" off all at once it would probably be less then that. Explained in other thread you linked above.

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Post by Red Panda » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:13 pm

kyle wrote:Packet Radio is a method of transmitting and receiving voice, video or other information and data in a digital format, ie a series of ones and zeros. It is sent in a series of blocks or "data packets" using radio frequency communications equipment. It's like RAR for radio.
Thanks, Kyle.

I thought that's what it sounded like. One problem we encounter a lot with ADSL over the telco lines is what we call "dirty packets". It happens when some of the info travels further down the line than the proper termination point, causing slowdown & errors.

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Post by AgentJew » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:38 pm

10. Use Your Emergency AOL Disk
If you find that your connection to the Internet is going to be longer than you can possibly stand, as a last resort, pull out an emergency AOL CD, the one with 910 free hours of connection to the AOL service. Take the CD in one hand...and slash it across your wrist! Suicide will probably be a better alternative than connecting to that service.
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Post by AEnemia » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:04 pm

How about LAN? Once you're holed up in a fortress, you can at least have an around the base network.

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Post by BoltAction » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:00 pm

AEnemia wrote:How about LAN? Once you're holed up in a fortress, you can at least have an around the base network.
Internal networks may stay up as long as power is there to support the servers, but as soon as the power goes out, everything is going down.

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Post by kyle » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:09 pm

AEnemia wrote:How about LAN? Once you're holed up in a fortress, you can at least have an around the base network.
Yeah, but for what purpose?

I guess you could keep a few databases to keep track of supplies, radio frequencies you've found contacts on, "How to" manuals, etc.

Oh, and have a LAN party.
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Post by BoltAction » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:12 pm

kyle wrote: Oh, and have a LAN party.
1st person shooter's? Training? Humm... good idea.

At least it will passd the time!

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Post by froggybottom » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:50 am

Satellite might have a chance but I'm not sure how the technology works and what a household relys on for it to function.

Most satellite companies use phone lines for upload and satellite signals for download; so in most cases when your phone lines go out you are dead in the water. An exception to this is Starband which uses satellite for both upload and download. But…this will not help you unless the zombie outbreak is limited to a geographical and Starbands land based networks back east or ok.

For example; let’s say you are living in California and the zombie outbreak starts in San Francisco. Now maybe the whole north state goes south but the army might be able to stop the zombie infestation at mountain passes on the east, south and north side of the state. Bascially, Northern California would be a no-go-zone but the other 49 states would be fine. Then with Starband if I could power my PC I could hook up to the internet even though the rest of California could be burning to the ground.

As to how satellite works:

Starband actually attaches a transmitting and receiving dish to your house. When you request information the request is beamed up to the satellite and then the satellite beams it down to some big assed computers in Atlanta (I am 90% sure but going from memory). From Atlanta the information is sent to the normal internet on trunk lines.

The weak point is Atlanta, Atlanta goes and you are hosed.


Froggy

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