Makeshift Ham Repeater

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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by NT2C » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:27 am

gary in ohio wrote:
KJ4VOV wrote:Got it.

The mobile to HT does not really need to ID so long as you're legally ID'ing when you transmit with the HT. ID'ing with the HT ID's your station, which can be more than one transmitter. It's the station that needs to ID, not the transmitter.
Incorrect!!!! 97.119 section A, Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.

Since your on two different "channels/Freq? EVERY transmitter needs to ID. Now if you ID your HT and it repeaters through your mobile then you have ID'ed both, but again the issue is The mobile tx back to the HT,. Its not IDed. It gets even more dicey if more than ONE "ht" user is using your xband repeater..
As I said, and the rule you quoted said, it is the station that has to ID. Since you are not the station transmitting from the mobile to the HT, you do not have to ID that portion, the other station does. You may own the equipment, but setup in cross band repeat like that it is the signal from the other station causing it to transmit, (just the same as having a guest operator in your shack) and they have the burden of ID'ing their transmissions. Remember, as far as the FCC is concerned, a station is an individual, club or other organization, not the equipment.
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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by Tater Raider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:56 am

Wouldn't this setup be considered an auxiliary station?

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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by NT2C » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:05 am

Tater Raider wrote:Wouldn't this setup be considered an auxiliary station?
Not the whole setup, no The HT in this situation could (by a long stretch of the rules) be considered the auxiliary station, since it's somewhat the controlling station, but the whole setup is more of a message forwarding setup (ie: repeater)
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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by Tater Raider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:09 pm

Okay, I'm doing review for Tech so obviously I'm not a Ham yet, but according to the study materials the HT (what he's transmitting from - for clarity's sake) is an auxiliary station because the signal originates there. The other 2 stations are acting as repeaters (what kind of repeaters depends on what he's using as a controling mechanism). Again, this is according to my study materials.
FCC wrote: [97.3(a)(7)] - Auxiliary station. An amateur station, other than in a message forwarding system, that is transmitting communications point-to-point within a system of cooperating amateur stations.
[97.113(f)] - Retransmitting the signals of another station is generally prohibited, except when you are relaying messages or digital data from another station. Some types of stations (repeaters, auxiliary, and space stations) are allowed to automatically retransmit signals on different frequencies or channels.
The repeaters being operated would be the system of cooperating amateur stations, one point is the HT and the other the mobile, and since he isn't forwarding messages from the HT then it (the HT) must be an auxiliary station. When he ID's the Aux station he ID's all stations in the network since they are operating under his control so that gets around the ID issue that's been raised (unless I'm completely misreading things on that, not unheard of). Self designators I'm not sure on so were it me operating this set-up I'd avoid their use and stick to the callsign assigned me by the FCC.

I have now decided that Part 97 was written by folk that wanted to relive their days being rules lawyers at the local Dungeons and Dragons game. :ohdear:


EtA: I'm not trying to be right here, just trying to find the right answers. If I'm wrong then please, by all means, feel free to rub my nose in the mess I left on the carpet.

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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by NT2C » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:57 pm

Tater Raider wrote:Okay, I'm doing review for Tech so obviously I'm not a Ham yet, but according to the study materials the HT (what he's transmitting from - for clarity's sake) is an auxiliary station because the signal originates there. The other 2 stations are acting as repeaters (what kind of repeaters depends on what he's using as a controling mechanism). Again, this is according to my study materials.
FCC wrote: [97.3(a)(7)] - Auxiliary station. An amateur station, other than in a message forwarding system, that is transmitting communications point-to-point within a system of cooperating amateur stations.
[97.113(f)] - Retransmitting the signals of another station is generally prohibited, except when you are relaying messages or digital data from another station. Some types of stations (repeaters, auxiliary, and space stations) are allowed to automatically retransmit signals on different frequencies or channels.
The repeaters being operated would be the system of cooperating amateur stations, one point is the HT and the other the mobile, and since he isn't forwarding messages from the HT then it (the HT) must be an auxiliary station. When he ID's the Aux station he ID's all stations in the network since they are operating under his control so that gets around the ID issue that's been raised (unless I'm completely misreading things on that, not unheard of). Self designators I'm not sure on so were it me operating this set-up I'd avoid their use and stick to the callsign assigned me by the FCC.

I have now decided that Part 97 was written by folk that wanted to relive their days being rules lawyers at the local Dungeons and Dragons game. :ohdear:


EtA: I'm not trying to be right here, just trying to find the right answers. If I'm wrong then please, by all means, feel free to rub my nose in the mess I left on the carpet.
Except for the fact that in most cases (exception being the Kenwood Sky Command system) the HT really does not offer any actual control over the mobile (ie: can't remotely take it off the air) you're essentially correct. Even the ARRL is uncertain about this issue, though they side with Gary in saying that the mobile to HT link is not being ID'd and thus illegal. http://www.arrl.org/auxiliary-station-faq

I'm going to withhold any further comments until I've had a chance to discuss it wit Bart (N3GQ) and see what the FCC's unofficial position/advice is. Who knows, this might be something one of us ends up petitioning the FCC about for an official rulemaking.
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit; occidentis telum est - Seneca the Younger, Epistles

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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by Tater Raider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:06 pm

KJ4VOV wrote:Except for the fact that in most cases (exception being the Kenwood Sky Command system) the HT really does not offer any actual control over the mobile (ie: can't remotely take it off the air) you're essentially correct. Even the ARRL is uncertain about this issue, though they side with Gary in saying that the mobile to HT link is not being ID'd and thus illegal. http://www.arrl.org/auxiliary-station-faq

I'm going to withhold any further comments until I've had a chance to discuss it wit Bart (N3GQ) and see what the FCC's unofficial position/advice is. Who knows, this might be something one of us ends up petitioning the FCC about for an official rulemaking.
I can live with this.

Kinda weird... ZS helping to clarify rules the FCC sets....

We're policy makers now? :shock:

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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by emclean » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:37 pm

KJ4VOV wrote: I'm going to withhold any further comments until I've had a chance to discuss it wit Bart (N3GQ) and see what the FCC's unofficial position/advice is. Who knows, this might be something one of us ends up petitioning the FCC about for an official rulemaking.
time to resorect an old thread.
did you get any guidance?

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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by CitizenZ » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:09 pm

My neighbor uses his HT (with SkyCommand) to monitor, control and TX his base radio (TS2000). He can work in his garden on his HT while talking on HF/VHF/UHF.

He explained to me there are 2 requirements to do this (SkyCommand is nor required, just really cool);
1) It's under "local" control, he can walk over and shut if off.
2)The transmitter sending him a signal auto ID's every 10 minutes

He happens to be the regional FCC Frequency Coordinator, head of the County EmComm and MARS affiliate.

If it's remote (not under local control), then it's a conventional repeater requiring a repeater license and frequency coordination.
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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by NT2C » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:39 pm

emclean wrote:
KJ4VOV wrote: I'm going to withhold any further comments until I've had a chance to discuss it wit Bart (N3GQ) and see what the FCC's unofficial position/advice is. Who knows, this might be something one of us ends up petitioning the FCC about for an official rulemaking.
time to resorect an old thread.
did you get any guidance?
I asked but didn't get a definitive answer. Since I'll be spending a four hour shift with him at the EOC tomorrow during this snowstorm I'll bring it up again.
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Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit; occidentis telum est - Seneca the Younger, Epistles

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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by Tater Raider » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:55 am

KJ4VOV wrote:
emclean wrote:
KJ4VOV wrote: I'm going to withhold any further comments until I've had a chance to discuss it wit Bart (N3GQ) and see what the FCC's unofficial position/advice is. Who knows, this might be something one of us ends up petitioning the FCC about for an official rulemaking.
time to resorect an old thread.
did you get any guidance?
I asked but didn't get a definitive answer. Since I'll be spending a four hour shift with him at the EOC tomorrow during this snowstorm I'll bring it up again.
Please do. I'm interested very much in this now.

I can see a scenario where this might come in handy being something along these lines:
  • You've got a nice radio setup (good gear, omnidirectional antenna) at camp but you're running low on supplies. Fortunately, you've got a pickup truck with a dual band mobile radio with crossband capability and great range on those freqs and 2 HT radios as well but their range sucks. You determine a nice 2m frequency to operate on between the truck and camp and off the truck goes on it's run. The truck parks at a likely location sets up the mobile radio to crossband repeat from the 2m freq to the 70cm freq and vice-versa. You then setup the HT's on the 70cm freq and leave the truck behind and goes scouting or whatever.
    • The guys on the crappy HT's with the dummy load antennas are all within 2 miles of each other so that's covered.
    • They are in range of the pickup so that's covered.
    • The pickup and camp can talk to each other so no problems there.
    • The HT's and camp, who couldn't talk to each other, can talk via the crossband repeater.
    • Now everyone's happy because everyone can talk to and hear everyone else.

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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by RadioShooter » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:39 am

Actually, I was going to try setting up a dual band 2M/440 radio as a base (on a power supply), but setup on to cross band 446.050 to 146.550 mhz. Then using a Wouxun KG and a Baofing UV, I was going to set them to transmit on 441.500 and receive on 146.550 mhz. Now I have a repeater that needs no duplexer, but only a reasonable dual band antenna and a short run of coax.

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Re: Makeshift Ham Repeater

Post by NT2C » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:06 am

Tater Raider wrote:
KJ4VOV wrote:
emclean wrote:
KJ4VOV wrote: I'm going to withhold any further comments until I've had a chance to discuss it wit Bart (N3GQ) and see what the FCC's unofficial position/advice is. Who knows, this might be something one of us ends up petitioning the FCC about for an official rulemaking.
time to resorect an old thread.
did you get any guidance?
I asked but didn't get a definitive answer. Since I'll be spending a four hour shift with him at the EOC tomorrow during this snowstorm I'll bring it up again.
Please do. I'm interested very much in this now.
Never got a chance to ask him because I didn't end up doing an EOC shift. I was assigned to shelter duty instead. I'll try and catch up with him at one of our local club's Saturday morning breakfasts but right now I'm kinda sidelined with a scratched cornea. (I was changing the muffler on the wife's truck (with proper eye protection) and needed a tool from my truck, parked in the driveway. Took off my eye protection before going outside since it's hard to see through, and when the wind blew the door of my truck into my arm it raised a cloud of dirt and rust flakes that blew right into my eye. They pulled some out last night at the urgent care place but couldn't get it all, so I have to see my regular eye doc on Monday and have no depth perception (and can't drive) until then.)
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit; occidentis telum est - Seneca the Younger, Epistles

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