Baofeng 5R+ questions

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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by crypto » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:29 am

My UV-1D has a Part 90 certification statement with it. My due diligence is done.
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by CitizenZ » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:22 pm

Do you have a part 90 license?

Using an unlocked radio for part 90 use is illegal. Having a part 90 certification is just one of the many requirements for part 90 use, but certainly not the only one. You do not have a part 90 license with your name, location, frequency assignment, showing of frequency coordination, emissions test or record keeping requirements; therefore you are not allowed to use part 90 radios at all. All of that is required in addition to using certified radios.

Amateur radio is different and controlled under FCC part 97, we have much greater liberties. Part 90 is very tightly controlled.
§90.203 Certification required.


(e) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, transmitters designed to operate above 25 MHz shall not be certificated for use under this part if the operator can program and transmit on frequencies, other than those programmed by the manufacturer, service or maintenance personnel, using the equipment's external operation controls.

(f) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, transmitters designed to operate above 25 MHz that have been approved prior to January 15, 1988, and that permit the operator, by using external controls, to program the transmitter's operating frequencies, shall not be manufactured in, or imported into the United States after March 15, 1988. Marketing of these transmitters shall not be permitted after March 15, 1989.

(g) Transmitters having frequency programming capability and that are designed to operate above 25 MHz are exempt from paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section if the design of such transmitters

(1) Is such that transmitters with external controls normally available to the operator must be internally modified to place the equipment in the programmable mode. Further, while in the programmable mode, the equipment shall not be capable of transmitting. The procedures for making the modification and altering the frequency program shall not be made available with the operating information normally supplied to the end user of the equipment; or

(2) Requires the transmitter to be programmed for frequencies through controls normally inaccessible to the operator; or

(3) Requires equipment to be programmed for frequencies through use of external devices or specifically programmed modules made available only to service/maintenance personnel; or


(4) Requires equipment to be programmed through cloning (copying a program directly from another transmitter) using devices and procedures made available only to service/maintenance personnel.
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by crypto » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:45 pm

For the limited purposes I use it for, yes.

But my response was based on the above statement that the Wouxun UV1P wasnt Part 90 certificated. It is I have the certificate, it came with my radio.

Here's the QST article where the UVD1P is reviewed, it gets good marks AND they mention it's got Part 90 certification.

http://www.powerwerx.com/download/WouxunQSTReview.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I like mine a lot. For the money its a great radio, and a damn sight better than the FT-60 it replaced. I keep seeing comments from old Elmers saying stuff like "THERES NO WAY IT CAN BE PART 90 CERTIFICATED BECAUSE ITS GOT A VFO"

or "BECAUSE ITS FRONT PANEL PROGRAMMABLE"

You know what? I dont give a shit. It's got a FCC sticker and a grant of certification.

If I've got a Part 90 application, I can set it up properly with free software and a $10 cable instead of having to send it out to a radio shop and paying someone $100 per radio to do the same thing with their proprietary software and magic cables. Good on Wouxun. I hope they eat everyone's lunch. It's not like Icom doesn't make their shit in China too.
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by CitizenZ » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:32 pm

crypto wrote:For the limited purposes I use it for, yes.
You have a part 90 business license with all of the other qualifications I mentioned, or is that your way of saying you don't think you need a license? If your employer has a license doesn't count, since you are the one using the new radio, you are in violation of FCC rules, not your employer.
But my response was based on the above statement that the Wouxun UV1P wasnt Part 90 certificated. It is I have the certificate, it came with my radio.
Here's the QST article where the UVD1P is reviewed, it gets good marks AND they mention it's got Part 90 certification.
You misunderstand the issue. It LOSSES it's certification if it is not locked. It must be locked to be compliant. Most expensive Motorola radios are frequency agile, but they are only legal after they are locked by the vendor. Using unlocked radios is a violation of the license and FCC rules.
I like mine a lot. For the money its a great radio, and a damn sight better than the FT-60 it replaced. I keep seeing comments from old Elmers saying stuff like "THERES NO WAY IT CAN BE PART 90 CERTIFICATED BECAUSE ITS GOT A VFO"
or "BECAUSE ITS FRONT PANEL PROGRAMMABLE"
You know what? I dont give a shit. It's got a FCC sticker and a grant of certification.
If I've got a Part 90 application, I can set it up properly with free software and a $10 cable instead of having to send it out to a radio shop and paying someone $100 per radio to do the same thing with their proprietary software and magic cables. Good on Wouxun. I hope they eat everyone's lunch. It's not like Icom doesn't make their shit in China too.
You must still lock the radio so it cannot be switched to any frequencies or modes not listed on your license (You are allowed to manage your own license. You are not required to pay a vendor, but there are so many weird requirements that most business find it easier to just pay a vendor). You must also submit in writing notice to the frequency coordinator the radio specifications, have it tested, and list the name of the technician who performed the tests in your records and amend you records. These are just some of the requirements for part 90 use. There are a lot more. It is a very tightly regulated band

There is a lot more required than just having a part 90 sticker. It doesn't matter if it's a Motorola or a Baofeng.
"Victory awaits him who has everything in order, luck people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck"- The South Pole, Roald Amundsen - 1912

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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by crypto » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:42 pm

No, anywhere *I* use Part 90, I'm using it on a licensed system for the purposes consistent with the license.

But this isn't about me, so stop with the cross examination, Perry Mason. We're talking about the radios.
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by CitizenZ » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:03 pm

The point I"m making is the license it the important part of the issue, not the sticker. There are a lot of requirements to use a part 90 radio. Using an unlocked radio is never allowed. Adding your own personal radio to someone's license without meeting the other requirements is not allowed. Unless you've complied with all the other requirements then the sticker on the back is meaningless.
My UV-1D has a Part 90 certification statement with it. My due diligence is done.
No. If you hit the transmit button on any frequency your are not authorized to use, you are in violation of federal law.
"Victory awaits him who has everything in order, luck people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck"- The South Pole, Roald Amundsen - 1912

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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by RadioShooter » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:52 pm

My Motorola GP380 VHF is locked but not certified. My Baofeng UV-5RB is unlocked but certified. Is there any solution other than the Kobayshi Maru Scenio?

Since keyboard programming is outlawed, only outlaws will have radios? I guess I am an radio outlaw.

Is there any reason why some of the surivalist forums doen't get a nation wide frequency like the American Red Cross. Then we would all be quasi-legal.

RS
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by CitizenZ » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:25 pm

If you have an amateur radio license you can use them on amateur bands.
If you get a business license, you can use them on business bands.
If you comply with all the other requirements for those services.

If you want to use a radio without a license then you can use CB or MURS radios.
"Victory awaits him who has everything in order, luck people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck"- The South Pole, Roald Amundsen - 1912

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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by crypto » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:45 pm

ETA: Or FRS, or in another couple months once the new rules are announced, GMRS.

Have you ever actually seen a MURS radio for sale in a store? I haven't, ever.

ETA ETA: I googled to see what was actually out there. LOL.

http://shop.murs-radio.com/Two-Way-Radios_c2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The #1 hit on google for MURS radios sales has Puxing 888's for sale. :|
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by crypto » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:52 pm

RadioShooter wrote:Is there any reason why some of the surivalist forums doen't get a nation wide frequency like the American Red Cross. Then we would all be quasi-legal.

RS

Because no one has money like the American Red Cross. ARC has hundreds and hundreds of local license allocations for their Disaster Services employees to use. Their radio budget is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. There is no national allocation for VHF/UHF to my knowledge.

EDIT: A few people were good enough to correct my ignorance, there is.

Now, once we're as big as the red cross, and have friends on Capitol Hill, we can get that too.
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by RadioShooter » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:57 pm

Seems that the FCC ULS shows 47.420 mhz and 47.500 mhz as nationwide allocations with more than 2000 units for the American Red Cross. I know that local chapters use everything from state TRS systems to local UHF systems.

I guess the thread is fully hijacked now.

RS
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by RadioShooter » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:01 am

Since the OP was requesting whether he could use his Baofeng on GMRS/MURS, the answer by the book is no. But does the FCC care about things that don't cause interference from a known geographical position? There was interference on a two meter repeater input for about 4 years around the upper SC area. The FCC was notified, but because the unlicensed operations were mobile/portable and only occurred during the fall hunting season, no action was taken. (Presumable due to the users being armed too.) The perps were taken off the air, not by the FCC, but by the fish and game authorities in a sting operation targeting the selling of bear hides and organs.

I don't know how many people here remember the major hooplah about encryption on GMRS/FRS bubble pack radios. The encryption was frequency inversion that is of dubious effect at securing one's comms. Uniden was among the companies fined or threatened with fines. Now three years later, one can purchase a Kirisen S-780 UHF 400-470 mhz DPMR radio advertised to have 10 million security combinations for $120.00 plus shipping. Again, easily programmed for amatuer, GMRS, or Part 90. Excuse me?? Is someone asleep at the FCC wheel? One day to be thrown under the bus, the next day a cold shoulder. Must be the liberal atmosphere in DC.

RS
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by crypto » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:03 am

RadioShooter wrote:Seems that the FCC ULS shows 47.420 mhz and 47.500 mhz as nationwide allocations with more than 2000 units for the American Red Cross. I know that local chapters use everything from state TRS systems to local UHF systems.

I guess the thread is fully hijacked now.

RS
Does anyone else have those frequencies where ARC doesnt have an office? Thats pretty cool if they got a national allocation that they can take anywhere without worrying about stepping on anyone.

Our local guys have local UHF, privs on the state system, and a low-band setup as well.
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by crypto » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:09 am

RadioShooter wrote: I don't know how many people here remember the major hooplah about encryption on GMRS/FRS bubble pack radios. The encryption was frequency inversion that is of dubious effect at securing one's comms. Uniden was among the companies fined or threatened with fines. Now three years later, one can purchase a Kirisen S-780 UHF 400-470 mhz DPMR radio advertised to have 10 million security combinations for $120.00 plus shipping. Again, easily programmed for amatuer, GMRS, or Part 90. Excuse me?? Is someone asleep at the FCC wheel? One day to be thrown under the bus, the next day a cold shoulder. Must be the liberal atmosphere in DC.

RS
I think you might be conflating a couple things though. The FRS/GMRS service says specifically that it must be transmitted in the clear
in §95.183(4) where it lists " Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings"

The S-780 is not sold as a GMRS radio, and was never certificated as such. Even were it not able to encrypt, it has other disqualifying factors from it ever being a GMRS accepted radio.

Please don't get this thread locked with politics, either.
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Re: Baofeng 5R+ questions

Post by RadioShooter » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:09 pm

Sorry. Off the wall after too many 72 hour weeks.

RS
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