Gardening Illigal?

[Towanda]

The text of Bill S 510, the Food Safety Modernization Act, can be read here (that's a Library of Congress link).

Small farms and home gardens are not affected by the bill.

Read legislation before getting all panicky about it.

[Lugnut]

Is "Small Farm" still defined as any farm that gross's 500k or more?

[ei8htx]

Is "Small Farm" still defined as any farm that gross's 500k or more?

You mean "or less" ? If so, then yes. More than 500k gross subjects you to the new laws.

[Chef]

$500k gross is not what I'd consider "large."

[ei8htx]

ya know, I'm not sure if it's net or gross. 500k gross really isn't a whole lot, especially if you're only pocketing a few k each month

ETA: Redacted, here's why:

http://www.agmrc.org/business_developme ... profit.cfm

In general, wholesalers mark up their products 50 percent, whereas retailers may mark up products 100 percent (Adam et al, 1999).

So if a farmers sells 500k worth of stuff at 50 percents markup, that means he's keeping 1/3rd profit. Out of 500k gross/yr this is 167k/yr profit.

Hopefully I didn't fuck up any math, but 167k a year is pretty damn good money.

[drunkensurvivor]

Interesting discussion I found while searching for more on this topic:
http://www.facebook.com/ethicurean/post ... 8795660688

This topic is pretty political, but I see it mostly addressing a non-existent problem. Food produced in our country is pretty dang safe as it is, and additional regulatory burden isn't going to help anyone. Hey, what about food, toys, etc coming in from China? That is what I'd worry about...

[Boonie]

This movie covers the topic.
http://www.foodincmovie.com/

They go into detail how they can patent a strain with a specific chromosome. Kind of scary that we can patent life now.

[Chef]

So if a farmers sells 500k worth of stuff at 50 percents markup, that means he's keeping 1/3rd profit. Out of 500k gross/yr this is 167k/yr profit.

Hopefully I didn't fuck up any math, but 167k a year is pretty damn good money.

I'm kind of tired right now, so I can't do a fully thought out analysis, but a quick cocktail napkin calculation considering the input costs of labor to tend and harvest the crop, fuel spent in cultivating the crop and taking it to market, crop and liability insurance, taxes at every level, and land and machinery expenses, it doesn't look to me like a there's a generous margin left over for the small-time farmer.

I've never spent months at a stretch biting my nails, hoping the weather doesn't fuck me over, waiting for the harvest to pan out so I can pay the bills. I doubt I'd want to. But I really like quality produce from specialty farms, and I'm glad people are willing to grow it. I don't appreciate anything that makes it harder for them, or more expensive for me, since I then have to mark it up to cover my margin.

This bill reminds me a lot of the hysteria over lead in Chinese toys and the poorly-conceived response. Big player fucks up and hurts people, there's a media blitz to "DO SOMETHING TO SAVE THE CHILDREN!!1!," a burdensome one-size-fits-all regulatory regime is imposed via legislative fiat, the big player that caused all the mess can afford the special sweetheart workaround procedures that undermine the intent of the legislation, and the small-timers have to dot every well-meaning i and cross every t in triplicate or be hounded out of business.

[KnightoftheRoc]

It seems to be a tempest in a teapot, as it relates to most of us, really. The legislation cover commercial farming, not self sufficiency-oriented farming. Most of the farming talk I've read on here is geared toward producing enough to supply themselves, with perhaps a little left over, just in case. Or, for some trading for other items they don't produce, or in other words, bartering for. I've been following this, since I'm looking at getting a farm in a few years, and really, I'm not worried about it. I'm not planning on having an operation large enough to generate the kind of income that would put me in this category, even tho that would be a nice income bracket to be in. Also, regardless of the size of the farm property itself, they can only enforce something like this ie; calling your farm "commercial", based on the size of the production. So, if you're only planting an acre veggie patch, and have another 99 acres of non-producing land, it would be a pretty big stretch to consider your patch of 1 acre "commercial", in most instances.

Even if the farm I wind up with DID fall under these new laws/restrictions, I myself do not have a problem with someone pointing out how I can make the food I'm producing safer. If I'm producing goat milk, which I hope to do, I'm going to be looking for the best ways possible to store and handle that milk without turning it into some kind of bio-hazard in the process. Why? Because, at the very least, I'll be drinking it myself, and I'm not in a big hurry to develop botulism.

Presently, I have no education whatsoever in the proper handling of dairy products at the production end of things. This is something I plan on rectifying in the intervening time between now and farming. I would just as soon learn the new standards and start there, as to have to learn something later on that might mean replacing equipment I could have saved the money on by not buying it, in favor of the new stuff.

As far as "Garden Police" go, even if they started using them, just think of how many illegal crops are grown in this country, versus how many are actually found and prosecuted. Using the same techniques, I'm sure anyone enterprising enough could establish a basement hydroponics garden to produce enough 'maters and 'taters to keep them fed. Plus, with the food staying IN the house- as opposed to barter or sales- it would be that much HARDER to find than the illegal stuff they are going after now.

[Blacksmith]

Hopefully I didn't fuck up any math, but 167k a year is pretty damn good money.

I guess. Most real small farmers work about 3500 hours a year. That works out to a little under $50 an hour for someone grossing that much. But they are still working 3500 hours a year. And forget about vacations, employer sponsored health insurance or any other benefit. Get hurt/ sick and you work hurt/ sick. The work never, ever stops. You don't take it home with you, you live it. This is more of a lifestyle than a job. But most won't gross near that much. Still many make over $100K a year which isn't bad but for the amount of work involved a lot of people won't do it.

Real farmers are some of the thriftiest people I know and have a lot of responsibility that most people in modern society no longer contend with.

[CaptBrainFreeze]

By all means, that isn't exactly "profit" when you factor in having to put money back for emergency equipment repairs and having money put back for the year that the crops bomb. Most farms I know are one bad year from bankruptcy and dairy farmers here are going under.

[Ad'lan]

By all means, that isn't exactly "profit" when you factor in having to put money back for emergency equipment repairs and having money put back for the year that the crops bomb. Most farms I know are one bad year from bankruptcy and dairy farmers here are going under.

Been that way as long as I can remember.

[Lugnut]

Is "Small Farm" still defined as any farm that gross's 500k or more?

You mean "or less" ? If so, then yes. More than 500k gross subjects you to the new laws.

Whoops, yes I meant 500k or less.

For what it's worth I know 2 familys with farms that gross just over that. Both are struggling.

One I know very well and he says after paying for farm/equipment loan payments, fuel and maintenance for the equipment, seed, fertilizer, fence/barn/facility repairs he nets about 66k a year.

His son makes more than him as a C# programmer with 3 years experience.

[ei8htx]

I agree that farmers probably have it pretty rough like the rest of the economy, and since the avg 40hr week comes to 1900 hrs/yr, they really work there ass off too. I'm just saying in best case scenario a farmer could probably make up to 167k a year before he would be too big and become subject to new laws.

[Blacksmith]

This timely article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40604156/ns ... e_economy/

In 1929, only one in 16 farmers in the nation reported working 200 days or more off the farm. By 1947, one in six farmers reported that much off-farm work, and by 1997, the ratio was one in three farmers. The 2007 survey reported that almost 900,000 farmers worked more than 200 days a year in other jobs.

"I'm not the exception. It's the norm now for a lot of small-scale farmers to have full-time jobs off the ranch," said Steve Spate, 50, who grows raisin grapes on 200 acres south of Fresno. He also works as a representative for the Raisin Bargaining Association, a job that has him out meeting and recruiting other growers to the group.

Small operations
Most farms in the United States are small operations, with 60 percent of all farms reporting less than $10,000 in sales of agricultural products. Of the 2.2 million farms nationwide, less than half show profit from their farms. The remaining 1.2 million depend on non-farm income to cover farm expenses.

"It's difficult to pay yourself, as a farmer, the money you deserve," Spate said. "And the money you do make, you put back into the farm."

Farmers said another job adds stability as well as cash flow.

"As a farmer, you have to worry about the weather and how your crops are going to price that year," Mesrobian said. "At least working a full-time job helps with insurance and benefits, helps cover your family."

It's a difficult balancing act, Mesrobian acknowledged,.

"How do you do both and still spend the time you need to with your family? There's no price on that," he said.

For farmer Dino Petrucci, trying to balance both proved to be too much.

Petrucci used to farm grapes in Madera, Calif., and run a catering business but now leases his land for pomegranate production and has scaled down to barbecuing on the weekends.

The side effect of open door immigration for cheap labor is that the small farmer competes with factory farms hiring immigrant labor at below minimum wage.

[ausher]

Gardening is only illegal if you leave your hoes out at night.

[RogerK]

Coming from someone who grew up on a dairy farm in the '60s and 70's (and worked on it basically for room and board through the 80's to 1992), my view.

At this time, we grossed about 50K.
Property taxes, 4k/year.
Electric, 6k/year
Fuel for tractors, 4K/year.
Mortgage 30K/year.

So my Dad worked 365 days a year (averaging 8 hours per day) for 6K or just a shade over $2/hour.

The thing that worries me about SB510 is the camel nose in the tent.

[darkenthorne]

It is too bad bartering doesn't get you off the hook from the tax man tho

The tax man can't tax something that's given as a gift, since no money has changed hands and no specific amount has been bartered.

[ZombieGranny]

It is too bad bartering doesn't get you off the hook from the tax man tho

The tax man can't tax something that's given as a gift, since no money has changed hands and no specific amount has been bartered.

Yes he can.
And if you don't report it, you wind up with much trouble and an audit that can go back to your first babysitting job.

[KnightoftheRoc]

It is too bad bartering doesn't get you off the hook from the tax man tho

The tax man can't tax something that's given as a gift, since no money has changed hands and no specific amount has been bartered.

Yes he can.
And if you don't report it, you wind up with much trouble and an audit that can go back to your first babysitting job.

QFT
The tax man wants to see his cut based on the estimated values of everything involved, from both/all parties involved. There's a reason the saying is "death and taxes"- no one escapes either of them- ever.

[squinty]

10 years ago, about this time, I was thinking to myself, “Who the hell is stupid enough to fly a Cessna into the Twin Towers? Those things are HUGE!” And to be fair, it was a topic of great interest and agreement among my fellow co-workers for about 10 minutes… Until someone informed us that a second plane had hit the Towers and a sickening realization came over us. And then the world made a giant shift into chaos.

Even then if you had told me in that moment that 10 years later exactly I would be 2 weeks out from sending my husband overseas to fight in a war started by that same plane, I would have told you that you were fucking nuts. My husband was not in the military at that time… I had babies at home. But here we are. 10 years later. Husband deploys to Afghanistan in 2 weeks. Funny that. Well, not really, but you have to laugh or you will just try really hard not to cry.

Did you post in the right thread? This is a thread about food safety regulation.

[shrapnel]

See the sig? Spam.

(BUT NOT ANYMORE)

[ei8htx]

See the sig? Spam.

(BUT NOT ANYMORE)

I thought that was completely random... I checked all 6 messages posted since the user subscribed at 1am and they all seemed legit, if out of place like this one. Idk how I missed the sig.

[arrowolf]

With all the gov't cutbacks going on (and my office just became one of them in the Dept. of Agriculture itself), the idea there's gonna be a Homegrown Tomato Police is pretty fricking ludicrous.