related to food storage in a bug in disaster

[NamelessStain]

I was thinking about the whole "losing power for an extended time" issue and food storage (in particular, frozen foods).

I've really been thinking about getting one of those 7 cu ft ice chest freezers and setting up a battery bank with a solar recharging panel(s) since I live in a hurricane zone. I just can't justify the cost at the moment, which I've estimated at $1200 for the whole setup.

[KnightoftheRoc]

I was thinking about the whole "losing power for an extended time" issue and food storage (in particular, frozen foods).

I've really been thinking about getting one of those 7 cu ft ice chest freezers and setting up a battery bank with a solar recharging panel(s) since I live in a hurricane zone. I just can't justify the cost at the moment, which I've estimated at $1200 for the whole setup.

I would advise a stand-up freezer, rather than a chest type. The chest style has a VERY SLIGHT advantage in that the cold stays in it longer, but not enough of one, IMO, to warrant the loss of floor space it eats up. I prefer a stand-up freezer, as it takes up less space, and they typically hold more than a chest freezer does. The energy demands when the power is on are pretty much even between the two, and if the power's off, that ceases to be an issue.

If you have room in a freezer, try to keep soda bottles of water in the empty spaces. The additional thermal mass will help keep what's in the freezer cold, longer, and they can be moved in and out of it as needed, and put back into your water storage line-up.

I keep a microwave ion top of my freezer, which is another advantage over the chest style- you can't really use the top of those for storage space without moving things every time you want to get into the freezer.

[duodecima]

I was thinking about the whole "losing power for an extended time" issue and food storage (in particular, frozen foods).

I've really been thinking about getting one of those 7 cu ft ice chest freezers and setting up a battery bank with a solar recharging panel(s) since I live in a hurricane zone. I just can't justify the cost at the moment, which I've estimated at $1200 for the whole setup.

I would advise a stand-up freezer, rather than a chest type. The chest style has a VERY SLIGHT advantage in that the cold stays in it longer, but not enough of one, IMO, to warrant the loss of floor space it eats up. I prefer a stand-up freezer, as it takes up less space, and they typically hold more than a chest freezer does. The energy demands when the power is on are pretty much even between the two, and if the power's off, that ceases to be an issue.

If you have room in a freezer, try to keep soda bottles of water in the empty spaces. The additional thermal mass will help keep what's in the freezer cold, longer, and they can be moved in and out of it as needed, and put back into your water storage line-up.

I keep a microwave ion top of my freezer, which is another advantage over the chest style- you can't really use the top of those for storage space without moving things every time you want to get into the freezer.

I like my chest freezer because it's easier to stuff it full without stuff falling out on me. When it was in the garage, we put a couple big shelves (used brackets rated for 500 lb) over it so we got some of the space back. Now it's tucked into a corner under part of a stair where I couldn't fit an upright and I'd only get a half-high shelf unit.

I'd go with whatever fits into your space best!

[Arkane]

I was thinking about the whole "losing power for an extended time" issue and food storage (in particular, frozen foods).

I've really been thinking about getting one of those 7 cu ft ice chest freezers and setting up a battery bank with a solar recharging panel(s) since I live in a hurricane zone. I just can't justify the cost at the moment, which I've estimated at $1200 for the whole setup.

Another thign that can help (if you have the room in the freezer) is to keep a 1 gallon jug of frozen water in there. We lost power last year for almost two weeks and the two we had in our upright barely thawed.

[JulieAnn]

The disposal of human waste is a whole 'nother topic, but it IS a concern to be considered before the um.....well you know, hits the fan. Certainly related to this one tho. My AO has mountain reservoirs that supply us in the city, so even if we were to lose any pumped pressure, I think we'd have enough to fill a toilet, and then the sewer system could handle it. Of course, this is not considering something like an earthquake breaking the lines themselves- and an earthquake, while not likely, IS a possibility here.

The farm I'm planning on buying, if the PAW waits long enough for me, will be a septic and a spring fed well, so my options greatly expand there.

I have been reading about compost toilets. You don't use precious water, you use sawdust, paper, etc. Do a google search. Its interresting!

[grennels]

Cans - PAW long term?

Cut out both ends, cut length wise, flatten and you have a shingle or a piece of siding.

[MacAttack]

I vote for the burn barrel if you have a place for one.
Even bean cans burn after a while. T hey will just melt away in a high enough temp.

If you don't have room for a burn barrel think of a small grill as a one mans burn barrel.

A few people around the hood used their household wood burner in the basement in the winter. Any extra heat helps.

Once you start separating out for the compost bin and the un-burnables there will not be much left anyways.

If you start thinking about it now you might start making a more conscious effort toward cutting down on plastic packaging. Plastic is the killer. We can crush metal cans and even burn away some. The glass containers can be reused easily and the paper/card board containers can be burned right up.

[88sport]

The disposal of human waste is a whole 'nother topic, but it IS a concern to be considered before the um.....well you know, hits the fan. Certainly related to this one tho. My AO has mountain reservoirs that supply us in the city, so even if we were to lose any pumped pressure, I think we'd have enough to fill a toilet, and then the sewer system could handle it. Of course, this is not considering something like an earthquake breaking the lines themselves- and an earthquake, while not likely, IS a possibility here.

The farm I'm planning on buying, if the PAW waits long enough for me, will be a septic and a spring fed well, so my options greatly expand there.

I have been reading about compost toilets. You don't use precious water, you use sawdust, paper, etc. Do a google search. Its interresting!

Just came back from a trip where my now fiancee and I were in this...hippie camp. Their website was misleading and I thought it was just about eco-friendliness and stuff, but it was more than that. Back on topic, I thought those composting toilets were very interesting until we had to use them and discovered that you cannot urinate in them. This creates a problem for females especially because they need to sit while urinating. For males, it isn't a problem, but for females it is.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Interesting- I hadn't known that. That presents a host of problems, there.

Toward the end of my being in business (I'm a plumber), I had a customer renovating a space for his publishing house. In the bathroom, he had ordered, and wanted me to install, a waterless urinal. To me, it seemed the most idiotic, smelly thing you could possibly want, but hey- he was paying for it, so I put it in. A year layer, I was back for a small repair, and out of curiosity, went into the bathroom. It stunk of urine. All the urine in the trap of the urinal was preventing sewer gases from coming into the room, but at the cost of the smell of urine- I can only imagine what it must be like on a Monday morning, having sat all weekend. (Fresh urine does not smell badly- at first.)

Water, used in the sewage process, does more than just carry it elsewhere. It provides the space and means for solids to break apart before bacteria can break them down, while also acting as a vapor barrier to the gases created. This is why every sink, tub, shower, etc has a trap- it's not to catch a ring, it's to stop sewer gases. Toilet piping does not require one, as the trap is built into the toilet itself.

I can understand- and I agree with- the desire to use as little water as possible, but to eliminate it altogether does not make sense to me. Doing so would require a technology that does not exist yet, or, if it does, is so little known as to be UN known. For a composting toilet, that accepts urine, I think you have to go back to the outhouse for your technology. Simple, effective, proven. Not without downsides of it's own, but workable, if thought out ahead of time.

[williaty]

Toward the end of my being in business (I'm a plumber), I had a customer renovating a space for his publishing house. In the bathroom, he had ordered, and wanted me to install, a waterless urinal. To me, it seemed the most idiotic, smelly thing you could possibly want, but hey- he was paying for it, so I put it in. A year layer, I was back for a small repair, and out of curiosity, went into the bathroom. It stunk of urine. All the urine in the trap of the urinal was preventing sewer gases from coming into the room, but at the cost of the smell of urine- I can only imagine what it must be like on a Monday morning, having sat all weekend. (Fresh urine does not smell badly- at first.)

They're not maintaining it properly. They work well if you have a janitorial staff that treats them properly but they will not tolerate neglect or you get the result your client experienced. The surface of the urinal is coated in something hydrophillic to make sure everything ends up in the drain but it does require daily cleaning. There's some sort of stuff (I honestly don't know what it is) that has to be at a specific level in the drain below the little cover. The stuff is lighter than urine, so it floats on top. If that's kept at the right level, the urine can never come into contact with the air (so you can't smell it) and will "fall through" to make it's way into the sewer via the trap. If you get any of that wrong, stink city. Do it right and you cut your water bill without sacrificing sanitation.

[duodecima]

Just came back from a trip where my now fiancee and I were in this...hippie camp. Their website was misleading and I thought it was just about eco-friendliness and stuff, but it was more than that. Back on topic, I thought those composting toilets were very interesting until we had to use them and discovered that you cannot urinate in them. This creates a problem for females especially because they need to sit while urinating. For males, it isn't a problem, but for females it is.

Huh. Really? I had assumed it'd be fine, since human urine is actually considered an acceptable if slightly difficult to use nitrogen source for regular compost piles. It's considered difficult since, while human urine is sterile, you do have to be sure your source doesn't have a urinary tract infection.

Possibly the issue is moisture - there's only so wet you want your compost to get. If my barrel gets too wet I just turn it so the "tea" can drip out and use it as fertilizer on plants, but you wouldn't want to do that with humanure, I think.

Also, girls can squat to pee. It is danged difficult to do in pants however, imo. But I've done it in skirts quite easily in parts of the world that use "squatty potties" ie squat-over latrines.

[williaty]

IIRC, it's not the moisture alone, it's the amount of something in the urine. I can't remember if it's nitrates or phosphates.

[duodecima]

IIRC, it's not the moisture alone, it's the amount of something in the urine. I can't remember if it's nitrates or phosphates.

Prolly nitrates. It's listed, for regular compost, as "good" to use only if you've got a lot of carbons you need to be dealing with. (Still, I would think more sawdust would even out the moisture and the N:C balance. But I've never done humanure, and I don't think even my crunchy granola neighborhood would take to it if they caught me at it...)

[KnightoftheRoc]

Toward the end of my being in business (I'm a plumber), I had a customer renovating a space for his publishing house. In the bathroom, he had ordered, and wanted me to install, a waterless urinal. To me, it seemed the most idiotic, smelly thing you could possibly want, but hey- he was paying for it, so I put it in. A year layer, I was back for a small repair, and out of curiosity, went into the bathroom. It stunk of urine. All the urine in the trap of the urinal was preventing sewer gases from coming into the room, but at the cost of the smell of urine- I can only imagine what it must be like on a Monday morning, having sat all weekend. (Fresh urine does not smell badly- at first.)

They're not maintaining it properly. They work well if you have a janitorial staff that treats them properly but they will not tolerate neglect or you get the result your client experienced. The surface of the urinal is coated in something hydrophillic to make sure everything ends up in the drain but it does require daily cleaning. There's some sort of stuff (I honestly don't know what it is) that has to be at a specific level in the drain below the little cover. The stuff is lighter than urine, so it floats on top. If that's kept at the right level, the urine can never come into contact with the air (so you can't smell it) and will "fall through" to make it's way into the sewer via the trap. If you get any of that wrong, stink city. Do it right and you cut your water bill without sacrificing sanitation.

Good to know, thanks.
I had a similar problem with a men's room floor drain in a facility where there were clients who often "missed" the urinal. My boss sent me all sorts of stuff to fix the problem with, but nothing worked. Eventually, I poured a cap ful of motor oil down the floor drain to create a very thin vapor barrier in the trap- no problem after that, and my boss was impressed, too. Not really an option in a line that leads directly to the municipal system- in fact, it's illegal here, so I wasn't sure what they could do about it. I DID opine at the installation time that it would be a smelly problem, but he said to go ahead...

[duodecima]

Eventually, I poured a cap ful of motor oil down the floor drain to create a very thin vapor barrier in the trap- no problem after that, and my boss was impressed, too. Not really an option in a line that leads directly to the municipal system- in fact, it's illegal here, so I wasn't sure what they could do about it.

Possibly a st00pid question - but would a quarter cup of cooking oil or mineral oil work? Since I can't think the cooking oil would be illegal, or even harmful, to the municipal sewer?

[KnightoftheRoc]

Eventually, I poured a cap ful of motor oil down the floor drain to create a very thin vapor barrier in the trap- no problem after that, and my boss was impressed, too. Not really an option in a line that leads directly to the municipal system- in fact, it's illegal here, so I wasn't sure what they could do about it.

Possibly a st00pid question - but would a quarter cup of cooking oil or mineral oil work? Since I can't think the cooking oil would be illegal, or even harmful, to the municipal sewer?

The cooking oil would be worth a try- the mineral oil, I'm unsure of. But, considering how little you'd need, trying either one is worth a shot.

[Crazy Wolf]

Eventually, I poured a cap ful of motor oil down the floor drain to create a very thin vapor barrier in the trap- no problem after that, and my boss was impressed, too. Not really an option in a line that leads directly to the municipal system- in fact, it's illegal here, so I wasn't sure what they could do about it.

Possibly a st00pid question - but would a quarter cup of cooking oil or mineral oil work? Since I can't think the cooking oil would be illegal, or even harmful, to the municipal sewer?

This is actually one of the most popular techniques for those "waterless urinals". Anything that'll float above urine will work.

[mariposa]

I live where burn barrels are still used by some residents, even within the city limits. I'm also across the street from a field that would probably become the neighborhood dump quickly, in a PAW-type situation.

Our trash service was not only restored a week after Ike, we got extra pickups. We were notified of the extra pickups, and any special instructions (such as stacking the cut-up tree waste at the curb) via Code Red.

[Anianna]

On the topic of food storage for a bug-in location:



(Click for the build).

I wonder, though, about the the heat of the refrigerator operation affecting the food or the refrigerator not having enough "room to breathe" with this set up. Thoughts?

[LtCmdLeia]

I wouldn't do that. I the heat of the fridge would be really bad for any food you'd put there.

[duodecima]

For kitchen pantry storage, that you rotate thru quite regularly, I think it's probably fine. The pull out pantry in my cabinets is right next to the stove/oven. (Why yes, the former owners did design the cabinets themselves... ) My spices, vinegar, olive oil, baking soda, etc, are all doing just fine after almost 2 years. At the rate that I go thru some canned goods, I could easily rotate thru those shelves once a year.

I think the fridge is fine, it should have a certain amount of room in back? They make hi-end custom kitchens with fully surrounded fridges, so I assume it should be workable?

I agree that I wouldn't use that location for long term can storage.

[Anianna]

Perhaps it would be good for storing non-food items to make more room in cabinets for food. Glasses, mugs, measuring cups, etc. would be great in that thing and would solve the storage problems that often come with those sorts of items.

[KnightoftheRoc]

On the topic of food storage for a bug-in location:



(Click for the build).

I wonder, though, about the the heat of the refrigerator operation affecting the food or the refrigerator not having enough "room to breathe" with this set up. Thoughts?

It depends on the fridge design, actually. If you have the coils on the back of the unit, air comes in the front of the unit at the bottom, and up the back, out over the top to remove heat. If you have the "jelly roll" condenser coil, it's located under the unit, usually next to the compressor, and has a fan unit to move air over it. A feather wand can be real useful for these, to keep the clean- dirt is the major cause of these units failing, btw. Side clearances are not usually needed for refrigerators, since the convection currents are up and down, not so much side to side. The insulation of most units should be plenty to keep anything stored right next to it from being adversely affected. Check your owner's manual for the unit- the necessary clearances are listed right in them.