Live Action Zombie Survival Training for Charity

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Live Action Zombie Survival Training for Charity

Post by SOWMAS » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:17 pm

Let's say that a guy had the necessary resources to develop and provide immersion based, live action survival training that also happened to involve zombies. The land, facilities, equipment, permits, insurance, all of it.

I don't want to say too much but the loose design of the course is as follows: A small group of people, let's say 8-10 of them, would be moved through a series of exercises while moving towards the end-point of the simulaton. This would include building a temporary shelter, starting a fire without a lighter or matches, finding and purifying water, applying first aid, and so forth. Most of the course would take place outdoors, rain or shine, during a simulated zombie outbreak and would last at least 24 hours. There would be people made up to look like zombies roaming around the training area.

My question to you is: What would you want out of such a course?

Before you answer, remember this; the course is about the application of survival techniques and medical care, not combat. Evasion would be the name of the game, not confrontation. Also, weapons would not be allowed. This is a safety issue and is non-negotiable.

I'm still researching the viability of this idea, but if there is enough interest, this could happen in September or October in the south central portion of Wisconsin.
Last edited by SOWMAS on Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by mystic_1 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:58 pm

So, what would be the point of the zombies, aside from standing around and rotting while the attendees started their fire and built their shelter?



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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by carolinafan » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:07 pm

So your concept is kind of like the Discovery channel show "The Colony", but with zombies, is that accurate? Some questions I have are, would the zombies in your course actually attack the people? If so, since confrontation is not permitted, are the people then just dead? Do they fail the course if they're caught by a zombie? Do they turn, therefore becoming one of the hunters of the group? I kind of appreciate the total immersion thing, but it might be better to just do the survival/first aid parts by doing a group camping trip in a primitive location or something. Putting zombies into the mix puts a different spin on just learning how to make a fire or a shelter out of things you find. Zombies kind of turn it into a self defense scenario on top of a survival skills scenario. Just my $.02 though.
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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by Probie » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:15 pm

You could use airsoft guns as weapons and you actually have to find ammo.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by SOWMAS » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:25 pm

carolinafan wrote:So your concept is kind of like the Discovery channel show "The Colony", but with zombies, is that accurate? Some questions I have are, would the zombies in your course actually attack the people? If so, since confrontation is not permitted, are the people then just dead? Do they fail the course if they're caught by a zombie? Do they turn, therefore becoming one of the hunters of the group? I kind of appreciate the total immersion thing, but it might be better to just do the survival/first aid parts by doing a group camping trip in a primitive location or something. Putting zombies into the mix puts a different spin on just learning how to make a fire or a shelter out of things you find. Zombies kind of turn it into a self defense scenario on top of a survival skills scenario. Just my $.02 though.
I can appreciate this take on it. To answer the question, to the best of my ability at this point anyway:

Yes, the zombies could "attack" the participants. The zombies would have strict instructions to not do anything that could actually cause injury.

Yes, a participant could "die", but this wouldn't mean failure of the course. There is no pass/fail. It's meant to be a fun exercise that also involves learning survival skills.

No, I don't think that a participant would become a zombie. Then they would miss out on the portions of the course where they would learn the survival skills.

I agree that adding the zombies into the training changes things, but that is kind of why I want to try it. I have been doing "normal" courses for quite a while. Anyway, this is just an idea at this point. Thanks for the feedback though!

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by mystic_1 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:30 pm

If the zombies attack, and the attendees are not allowed to defend themselves, and the attendees 'die' when attacked by the zombies, than it's basically guaranteed that the attendees will all die.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by carolinafan » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:34 pm

mystic_1 wrote:If the zombies attack, and the attendees are not allowed to defend themselves, and the attendees 'die' when attacked by the zombies, than it's basically guaranteed that the attendees will all die.

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Exactly. That's why I mentioned adding zombies put an element of self defense into the scenario. Then it's no longer just about learning survival skills. You could make your primitive camping trip a scenario based thing, like telling participants there has been a zombie outbreak and their group has managed to make it to their location. Now they have to forage around to survive. Zombies could be part of the storyline, but no zombies would actually attack the participants. Then it would be more of a straight up survival skills course, just with a more interesting story.
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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by Jsimmonsgr » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:39 pm

I personnaly would not attend a course like this ( Zed survival) unless there was a bit of weapons training. I like the idea a few pages back regarding Airsoft. I think it would allow for not only a slightly more realistic experiance but also a few extra points for training. I figure that to use airsoft you need eye protection right? So have the zombies play a mix of police and\or military with riot helmets\gasmasks, then issue gasmasks and \ or N95 resperators and eye protection to the " survivors". They will have to remove they to eat, but if they are removed for too long \ or if removed when a "infected" comes near, then they fail.
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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by SOWMAS » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:40 pm

mystic_1 wrote:If the zombies attack, and the attendees are not allowed to defend themselves, and the attendees 'die' when attacked by the zombies, than it's basically guaranteed that the attendees will all die.

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I wouldn't say that. It's more about evasion. The training area will be big enough that the zombies can be avoided.

In any case, I think that I can clear some things up here. This will happen in a rural, wooded location and there will be a low zombie density. As I said in my opening post, the course is about survival and wilderness medicine, not combat. You might run into a zombie here and there, but it's not going to be a crowd of them outside your window.
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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by SOWMAS » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:45 pm

Jsimmonsgr wrote:I personnaly would not attend a course like this ( Zed survival) unless there was a bit of weapons training. I like the idea a few pages back regarding Airsoft. I think it would allow for not only a slightly more realistic experiance but also a few extra points for training. I figure that to use airsoft you need eye protection right? So have the zombies play a mix of police and\or military with riot helmets\gasmasks, then issue gasmasks and \ or N95 resperators and eye protection to the " survivors". They will have to remove they to eat, but if they are removed for too long \ or if removed when a "infected" comes near, then they fail.
I can understand how some might feel that the lack of weapons makes it unrealistic. However, from a safety standpoint, I'm not sure that weapons could be incorporated into it without undue risk.

The course is plot driven and the participants begin the course in a way that ensure that no weapons were available. This is primarily a survival course, I just thought it might be fun to add the zombies into it.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by majorhavoc » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:01 pm

Well, I don't think it's a given at all that everyone has to die if zombies are part of the simulation, are "lethal" and the participants are not allowed to fight back.

It seems to me that the point of introducing the zombies into a practical survival training course would be that they represent any threat that is to be avoided, not engaged. The emphasis in the zombie portions of the exercise would be stealth and evasion, not simulated combat.

Have the base camp be off limits to the zombies so that portions of the course can be devoted solely to practical survival skills like shelter construction, fire making and food prep. Either that or introduce a reward system where careful site selection of the base camp will eliminate or reduce the chance of a zombie encounter. In either case, arrange things so zombies are definitely encountered during foraging/supply exercises.

Sometimes we come at this with too pronounced a fantasy perspective and assume the only way to "realistically" involve live action zombies is to treat them as analogs to the undead of movies/video games and therefore combat them.

Taking combat completely off the table might actually make the zombie elements of OP's proposal a more useful metaphor in training for a real survival/SHTF scenario, where avoidance and evasion would be a much more realistic (and legal) way of maintaining security than, say, gunning down threats, whether they be undead or otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do a fantasy Left 4 Dead style live action course fighting off zombies with airsoft, paintball or simunitions. But that would be for sheer entertainment value. If we take OP's objective (practical survival training with a fun twist) at face value, then zombies without combat actually makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by BlueSilkRibbon » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:01 pm

Might be a good idea. Avoiding zombies, learning noise discipline, and having to evacuate a perfectly good shelter and fire because of imminent zombie attack could be a valuable and cool morale test. At the end of the day, avoidence and stealth is going to be required when you run out of ammo. Or as Rick would say "we got to use our knives more". Ultimately this scenerio is about inverting the food chain and stealth has value. Not to mention Rule #1...Cardio.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by Probie » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:10 pm

To elaborate on the airsoft idea. To be safe all that is required is shooting glasses. And to make it not just a zombie hunting thing give the survivors a very limited ammount of ammunition.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by SOWMAS » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:17 pm

To majorhavoc:

You've explained it better than I did. If you choose to fight every time, you'll eventually lose. But if you avoid the threat, that's a different story. It's not all about pulling a trigger.

The point of the course is to survive, not to kill zombies. I wouldn't say that the base camp will be off limits to zombies, but they would be on a schedule and wouldn't interfere with things during certain periods of time.

There will be rewards for the participants that are alive at the end of the course.
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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by majorhavoc » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:23 pm

Jewmadbro? wrote:To elaborate on the airsoft idea. To be safe all that is required is shooting glasses. And to make it not just a zombie hunting thing give the survivors a very limited ammount of ammunition.
That unfortunately is not true, as airsofters with chipped teeth can attest. To say nothing of soft tissue injuries requiring professional medical treatment. That a 6mm plastic bb to the ear or upper lip is not life threatening may or may be acceptable to a paying customer (even one that signs a liability release) faced with the prospect of going home early or being in considerable discomfort for the duration of the course.

Some of these risks can be ameliorated with FPS limits, good safety protocols and common sense, but "To be safe all that is required is shooting glasses" won't cut it with a business liability underwriter, which is the likely reason why OP said simulated combat is strictly non-negotiable.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by mystic_1 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:41 pm

I don't think that having zombie involved requires combat. I agree that introducing weapons would be a bad idea for the reasons mentioned above.

But again, I have to ask, why zombies? What would they do, and how would their participation enhance the attendee's education?

As a way of simulating disasters that you cannot predict? Why not just tell the participants "a tornado has just been spotted, you have to evac NOW" or "a forest fire is closing in on your your position, you have to evac NOW" or "a flash flood is approaching, you have to find high ground NOW". Running in circles to avoid a guy dressed in zombie makeup doesn't really simulate any particular scenario that couldn't be more effectively simulated through other means.

So, while zombies would be a fun thing to include (or so it seems to us here at Zombie Squad) I don't really see how it would enhance the experience for attendees. Worse, it's been suggested that the attendees' actual lessons should be interrupted by zombie attacks they must simply run away from.

As persented, I'd say that the inclusion of the zombies would actually detract from the learning, rather than enhance it.

This is not to say that I'm poo-pooing the idea of Zombie Survival Training, but I think this idea requires more refinement, from a "game mechanics" perspective.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by SOWMAS » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:46 pm

mystic_1 wrote:I don't think that having zombie involved requires combat. I agree that introducing weapons would be a bad idea for the reasons mentioned above.

But again, I have to ask, why zombies? What would they do, and how would their participation enhance the attendee's education?

As a way of simulating disasters that you cannot predict? Why not just tell the participants "a tornado has just been spotted, you have to evac NOW" or "a forest fire is closing in on your your position, you have to evac NOW" or "a flash flood is approaching, you have to find high ground NOW". Running in circles to avoid a guy dressed in zombie makeup doesn't really simulate any particular scenario that couldn't be more effectively simulated through other means.

So, while zombies would be a fun thing to include (or so it seems to us here at Zombie Squad) I don't really see how it would enhance the experience for attendees. Worse, it's been suggested that the attendees' actual lessons should be interrupted by zombie attacks they must simply run away from.

As persented, I'd say that the inclusion of the zombies would actually detract from the learning, rather than enhance it.

This is not to say that I'm poo-pooing the idea of Zombie Survival Training, but I think this idea requires more refinement, from a "game mechanics" perspective.

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The zombies are tangible threat. You can see them, you can hear them, they respond to you and your actions. That's why I thought they might work in this project.

The zombies would not interrupt anything. The course would be scripted and choreographed on their side of things. They'd know exactly when, and if, to show up as to not detract from the lesson plan.
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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by mystic_1 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:49 pm

That's an improvement.

How would you picture one of these zombie encounter playing out?

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by SOWMAS » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:56 pm

mystic_1 wrote:That's an improvement.

How would you picture one of these zombie encounter playing out?

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I don't think I can answer that without giving away too many details. Can you be more specific?

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by mystic_1 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:11 pm

So, your group of attendees is what, walking along? sitting in camp? something else? when the zombie appear.

Do the zombies charge the group? Stand around moaning? Do a little dance?

What do the attendees do? What if they WANT to attack the zombies?

If the attendees run away, what then? Do the zombie pursue?

Finally, what do the attendees learn from the encounter?

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by SOWMAS » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:22 pm

mystic_1 wrote:So, your group of attendees is what, walking along? sitting in camp? something else? when the zombie appear.

Do the zombies charge the group? Stand around moaning? Do a little dance?

What do the attendees do? What if they WANT to attack the zombies?

If the attendees run away, what then? Do the zombie pursue?

Finally, what do the attendees learn from the encounter?

mystic_1
For clarification purposes, these zombies will not be running.

The encounters could occur at any time during the course. The instructors and the zombies will generally know when the encounters will happen, the participants will not. However, if the participants do things that draw attention to themselves, more encounters are likely.

The zombies will do what zombies do. They will attempt to, symbolically, eat the participants. If the participants run, the zombies will follow.....very slowly. If a participant intentionally harms one of the zombies they will immediately be removed from class and possibly subject to charges of assault and/or battery. The zombies are, after all, not really zombies but people who have decided to participate in the course in another way. In actuality, the zombies will probably be played by people that I know.

The participants may learn things from the encounters, but their main purpose is to move the "plot" of the course along.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by mystic_1 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:39 pm

SOWMAS wrote: The zombies will do what zombies do. They will attempt to, symbolically, eat the participants. If the participants run, the zombies will follow.....very slowly.

Then what? Do the zombies ever stop pursuing? I would presume they'd have to, otherwise the participants would be spending all their time outpacing the zeds.

So, zombies appear, attendees run away, encounter over.

I don't see the point, aside from creating some ambiance. Doesn't sound like it'd enhance the educational experience, which I assume that attendees are paying for. In fact if I paid for such a course, and was expected to spend time fleeing zombies rather than learning, I'd be irritated to say the least.

Unless you can come up with some way of incorporating the zombies that actually teaches something or otherwise enhances the learning experience, I wouldn't include them. I imagine that the number of people that are willing to pay to simply be "chased" by people in zombie makeup is pretty small.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by SOWMAS » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:51 pm

mystic_1 wrote:
SOWMAS wrote: The zombies will do what zombies do. They will attempt to, symbolically, eat the participants. If the participants run, the zombies will follow.....very slowly.

Then what? Do the zombies ever stop pursuing? I would presume they'd have to, otherwise the participants would be spending all their time outpacing the zeds.

So, zombies appear, attendees run away, encounter over.
I don't think that we are looking at this the same way. The course is about learning survival skills and basic wilderness medicine. The zombies are a plot device, something that I thought would make the course interesting.

Yes, the zombies will stop chasing after awhile. Then, the participants will move on to the next part of the lesson plan. Let's say that the participants had established a camp and had to leave because of the zombies, now they need to meet their survival needs in a different location at which point they migt be taught a different way to build a shelter or a different way to purify water.

When zombies appear, the attendees don't just run away, they adapt to their new circumstances. That is what survival is about, adaptation.

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Re: Live Action Zombie Survival Training

Post by mystic_1 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:02 pm

SOWMAS wrote:When zombies appear, the attendees don't just run away, they adapt to their new circumstances. That is what survival is about, adaptation.

Adaptation is the key to survival, yes. I previously used the Darwin quote about this as my forum signature. However, if the zombies simply take the place of the instructor saying "OK, time to move on to the next lesson" than what adaptation is needed?

If there is no negative consequence to being "eaten" by the zombies, wouldn't the smartest survival choice be to allow yourself to be eaten and then move on to the next lesson? Running away for no reason (no negative consequences) is just wasted calories and opportunity for injury.


BTW I hope you're not taking my feedback as attacking your idea, I intend it as constructive criticism.

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