Lazer Tag as Training?

[rawr]

While I do prefer paintball to laser tag, I wouldn't go so far as disregarding laser tag as completely useless. The military has used MILES for a while now, which I considered to be pretty effective training. Granted, all the MILES gear we were issued during my last NTC run (October of last year) was pretty worn out; there's something nice about firing blanks and scoring kills. Now, the lack of pain associated with laser tag is a HUGE drawback. This allows anyone to go full-rambo, unless you have guys setting up guidelines and enforcing them. Can anyone really argue that dry-fire exercises with real weapons and magazines would be more effective than performing the same exercises with laser tag weaponry?

Out all of the training I've done, I would deem simunition to be the most effective. However, in the military, it requires you to use a replacement bolt (expensive, I'm sure) and you HAVE to police call your shell-casings. It hurts like hell, but we can all agree that pain is probably the best learning tool when it comes to training.

Despite all of this training, I remain loyal to paintball.

TL;DR - IMO, laser tag is okay for training as long as someone is enforcing squad movements instead of letting people play John McClane.

[TripleThreat]

Good luck to all

[AKFTW]

As I said before, no pain= no gain, especially in regards to any type of combat training. Not getting hurt when you get shot means no negative pain reinforcement when you do something stupid, therefore you don't learn anything on that useful, instinctual level.

[maldon007]

Now Tazer Tag on the other hand...

Awesome.

[KentsOkay]

Lazer tag is awesome, but only because I am virtually undefeatable at it.
The last time I was playing lazer tag was legen-wait for it-DARY!!

Now paintball on the other hand, I'm only slightly better than everyone else. As in I can get tagged in one on one combat. I don't know why it's different, it just is.

*Edit* actually I do know, in lazer tag I just stalk people and kill everyone as silently as possible and use mirrors/confusion/terrain to my advantage, and I work best alone. With paintball I need backup.

[Tagtime Laser Tag]

50 cal laser tag gun.....
I bet we'd all be "training" inside a giant inflatable also, or a room with smoke machines and black lights. LMAO

Nope, "Training" in the good ole outdoors. We can provide a much more realistic training than paintball or airsoft ever could. Our Laser Tag gear has a range of 500 yards in full sun, and nearly unlimited range at night. Try that with paintball.

And why be limited to training in a "paintball field" (Now thats realistic) when you can train in your neighborhood, house, or workplace. We set up scenarios in the places you would actually be fighting.

Hey, as long as you can make it hurt when you get shot, I like the idea of 500m engagement ranges.

You wear a rubber band on your wrist you have to snap every time your speaker makes a "kerpew!" noise.
This is how the "training" plays out in my mind:

"pew pew pew, I've been hit in my elastic bandana! I can tell from the flashing LED's! Tell my wife and kids I love them. (in a deep voice through my chest speaker) GAME OVER.
Let's go see if the yellow team or the blue team won, then we'll get nachos and play mini-golf!

This is just silly, the thought that anyone thinks this is a good way to train baffles me.

Evidently the Military does. We've been doing a bunch of CQB training with different military and police groups.
We can set up in any office or building. Try that with simunitions or paintball.
Do you want to train in real life situations or on a paintball field?

Why the big hangup on feeling pain when training?
In real life, you only get to feel pain once!
I'm amazed at the people that spend the day on a paintball field. Are totally covered in paint, and think they learned something. They did, How to die.

[Shaper]

50 cal laser tag gun.....
I bet we'd all be "training" inside a giant inflatable also, or a room with smoke machines and black lights. LMAO

Nope, "Training" in the good ole outdoors. We can provide a much more realistic training than paintball or airsoft ever could. Our Laser Tag gear has a range of 500 yards in full sun, and nearly unlimited range at night. Try that with paintball.

And why be limited to training in a "paintball field" (Now thats realistic) when you can train in your neighborhood, house, or workplace. We set up scenarios in the places you would actually be fighting.

Hey, as long as you can make it hurt when you get shot, I like the idea of 500m engagement ranges.

You know, I don't think it would take much to add the conditioned response (in this case pain) to the lazer tag element.

I mean, they already have kids toys that have a chest rig that vibrates and or buzzes in response to a direct hit.

The electronics nerd in me tells me it would be VERY easy to wire up a dog's training shock collar to do the very same thing. And anyone who has ever been on the receiving end (either accidentally or on purpose) of a shock collar will tell you it is a very effective detterent.

I think even an upper thigh or buttocks attachment point could be useful for stopping most folks right in their tracks (for more simulated realism) while still remaining relatively safe and repeatable in its use.

[Bahamut]

Laser Tag can be used as a training tool. Of course, I wouldn't rely on one form and ignore all the rest. With the realistic looking Laser gear (like the MILES system) you could perform some teamwork and CQB training in any environment. The Indoor variety can offer some of the night training, such as to stay on guard and how to utilize your environment. Paintball will give you the more realistic battle training (with Simunition being superior to it) as well as typically industrial or rural environments.

The point is that laser tag can be used as training, but not as the win all training. Participating in all types of these activities will give you the best real training.

[CodyC]

I was a regular at Hard Knocks in Orlando for a long time (which uses the same tech as the picture ad on the first page, including the exact same pistols), and I discovered a lot of quirks with it.

There's no reloading, for one. Even if reloading is simulated, it's nothing more than pressing a button and waiting a few seconds. The guns are also only vague interpretations of real weapons at best, so you don't get any cross-training benefits. On the other hand, anyone with an AK or AR-15 can find an airsoft gun that's nearly identical to their real weapon, right down to using metal and wood.

There's no actual projectiles, so all shots simply travel straight from the barrel to whatever's first in the path. The biggest problem is that the actual lasers are much larger than any real firearm and sensors are often sensitive enough to pick up near-misses and count them as a hit. We once had a case where someone fired his gun into the ceiling and someone immediately next to him lost a life. There's also been times where someone's shot over a person's shoulder and they've taken a hit. I personally got shot in the back despite the shooter behind me having her barrel about 7 feet to the side and shooting past me. You can sometimes hit an entire close group with one shot. There's a ridiculous level of imprecision. It gets worse when reflective surfaces get involved.

The guns have no recoil, unless you spring for very expensive MILES gear and blank adapters/ammo or CO2 blowback guns. Combined with the sensitive sensors and large beam, you often don't even need to aim: you can hold your gun pointed at the bad guy and hold down the trigger until his alarm goes off.

Since there's no projectile, there's the obvious problem of how people are unwilling to really go to any lengths to dodge shots. Everyone who's played airsoft or paintball knows the newbies who refuse to expose themselves to danger because of a fear of getting hit. With laser tag, people regularly pull moves that would be stupid in real life and are perfectly fine with taking hits from all directions. I also played a few zombie games, and we suffered a major problem in that zombies didn't have sensors and didn't acknowledge that they were being shot sometimes. I literally dumped five rounds at point blank range into a zombie and she still didn't die, and I lost a life for that.

Laser tag has the advantages of actually getting people in a team and shooting SOMETHING, so it's better than nothing at all. But airsoft and paintball have many huge advantages over both of them. I'd say that airsoft has even more advantages for training, since even the cheap guns often make some effort to have the same controls as the real steel gun it's based on. If you really want to spring for it, you can pay about $250 for an airsoft gun that loads actual plastic or brass shells that fit a BB on the end and ejects them as you fire, essentially just a real M4 with CO2 instead of gunpowder and a plastic pellet instead of a bullet. They even have some amount of recoil. There's also airsoft revolvers that use gas-filled brass or plastic shells (brass is best, but more expensive at $20 for a six pack) and fit a BB on the end; all airsoft revolvers that I've seen, including spring revolvers that take no gas and are just single-action, operate this way and cost as low as $10 for a spring gun and $40 for a gas gun. They have less recoil than a .22, but it's a good way to practice reloading after you're done shooting.

[AKFTW]

I'm actually thinking about converting my airsoft AK-105 to run off an external CO2 tank with the "Daytona Gun" system. The one downside to this is the need for a CO2 tank and air hose but the recoil and realistic operation more than makes up for it, I think.

[CodyC]

Actually, outside of somehow getting/building a MILES rig and blank guns or blank adapters to play war, the best use of "laser tag" for training would be one of the virtual shooting ranges currently in military use (among others). I've had hours of experience with these ranges thanks to publicly available demonstrations at Otronicon every year in Orlando (which I've been attending since 2006 and only skipped this year), including their combat scenarios that were occasionally played for the public.

The guns operate like typical arcade light guns, but the "projectiles" are an accurate size to the real bullets and are affected by gravity and wind in the simulator (which can be adjusted by the operator, including removing them entirely as factors). The guns use CO2 for recoil and bolt/slide operation and other than lacking various internal parts and ammo in the magazines, they feel almost identical to a real gun without the noise, flash, and smoke of a real gunshot. Though apparently you CAN turn up the volume of all sound effects to have similar decibel ratings as the real thing.

All of the versions I've played with include simple firing ranges with various distances and target popups available, as well as simulated scenarios. The old versions (and some today) use full-motion video like old American Laserdisc light gun games, though these can seem a bit odd about hit detection. Scenarios are pretty various: Coast Guard boat stopping, prisoner guards with an armed prisoner, embassy guards dealing with an assassin, hostage and counter-terrorism raids, etc. The newer ones that I first saw in 2011 used 3D graphics to build a video game-style scenario, typically involving enemies moving around an area and firing from different ranges (up to several hundred yards). There are also police versions that use a similar game engine to create scenarios like domestic disputes with armed suspects who shoot at the responding officer. These also include support for simulated Tasers, as well as headsets that allow for you to practice making commands and asking questions.

So far, only a few of these are publicly available outside of show demos and they cost tens of thousands of dollars to install (though I believe they're available for private consumption, as the Hard Knocks laser tag arena in Orlando has acquired several units). Gander Mountain has them in both "virtual shooting range" setups and near-360 degree arenas for practicing CCW scenarios and target practice, and they offer paid classes with trained instructors in the stores that have them.

[Paladin1]

I just played laser tag with my kids this weekend. Don't really see it as viable for realistic training IMO.

Simunitions, on the other hand, are.

But even simunitions is a supplement to competitions and training days, actually moving and shooting. If you aren't doing that, then you're not really training.

[ZH10950]

The military used lazer tag style training years ago. Reading through these posts I just found out paintball is now being used which I think is pretty cool.

IMHO, either method is good for showing all the stupid things people can do to get shot in a firefight (i.e.: not moving when under fire, sticking their head up and firing from the same spot more than twice, more concerned about trying to shoot people than with cover and concealment, etc.) and how fireteam/squad formations become disfunctional real fast when SHTF.

But, as the op said...there is something that is more appealing about knowing that if you do get dinged in practice its going to sting like hell! If I had a choice I'd go paintballing!

[Mr. E. Monkey]

As I said before, no pain= no gain, especially in regards to any type of combat training. Not getting hurt when you get shot means no negative pain reinforcement when you do something stupid, therefore you don't learn anything on that useful, instinctual level.

I realize this is a bit old, but screw it.

I think you guys are missing the mark in dismissing this idea out of hand.

For ordinary training, yeah, what you guys are saying about pain/negative reinforcement makes perfect sense...BUT...

The OP was talking about zombies.

Zombies aren't allowed to shoot

So unless you're training to be a zombie, you're not getting shot in this scenario. And zombies aren't supposed to feel pain anyway, so...given the narrow scope of the scenario, what's the problem?